OJT books in Australia
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OJT books in Australia
G'day all,
I'm currently employed with VAus and am about done with the diploma to get a non-type rated B2. So, given I'll then be looking to get my initial type, I'm needing to get some OJT books, as the SOE system is all grinding to a halt next June (apparently).
Does anyone know of any Australian RTOs that sell OJT books? I've asked the training department at VA and they were writing some OJT books but that all stopped when A330 and ATR courses took priority, so who knows when we'll see internal OJT books.
Any help would be great!
Cheers,
John
I'm currently employed with VAus and am about done with the diploma to get a non-type rated B2. So, given I'll then be looking to get my initial type, I'm needing to get some OJT books, as the SOE system is all grinding to a halt next June (apparently).
Does anyone know of any Australian RTOs that sell OJT books? I've asked the training department at VA and they were writing some OJT books but that all stopped when A330 and ATR courses took priority, so who knows when we'll see internal OJT books.
Any help would be great!
Cheers,
John
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Your existing SOE can be transferred into OJT.
You will have to wait till after June 26 2015 and then get your SOE assessed under RPL into OJT.
I believe there is an automatic 75% reduction.
Speak to Aviation Australia in BNE. They are the ones who told me about this.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...ftac66-7-0.pdf
Transport Canada have been printing off OJT books for about 30yrs now. Know anyone in Canada who could post you some? Maybe you can purchase some online?
You will have to wait till after June 26 2015 and then get your SOE assessed under RPL into OJT.
I believe there is an automatic 75% reduction.
Speak to Aviation Australia in BNE. They are the ones who told me about this.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...ftac66-7-0.pdf
Transport Canada have been printing off OJT books for about 30yrs now. Know anyone in Canada who could post you some? Maybe you can purchase some online?
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Ain't saying,
I think you misunderstand the way ojt works...the ojt book and it's policies and procedures need to be approved by casa and included in the part 145 or part 147 organisations moe. The organisation that particular book is approved for is the only organisation that can assess that completed book and if satisfied the candidate is competent then issue a form 465 to casa. For example if qantas have an approved ojt book for a particular type of aircraft, only qantas can assess the book and complete the process. You can't take a qantas book and use it at virgin. Ac 147-2 will also show organisations that have an approved ojt book for any given aircraft type. Aviation Australia most definitely cannot assess soe and rpl it to ojt unless they have a casa approved ojt book and system for the type the soe was collected on. At this point in time they do not have this in place.
I think you misunderstand the way ojt works...the ojt book and it's policies and procedures need to be approved by casa and included in the part 145 or part 147 organisations moe. The organisation that particular book is approved for is the only organisation that can assess that completed book and if satisfied the candidate is competent then issue a form 465 to casa. For example if qantas have an approved ojt book for a particular type of aircraft, only qantas can assess the book and complete the process. You can't take a qantas book and use it at virgin. Ac 147-2 will also show organisations that have an approved ojt book for any given aircraft type. Aviation Australia most definitely cannot assess soe and rpl it to ojt unless they have a casa approved ojt book and system for the type the soe was collected on. At this point in time they do not have this in place.
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000,
Speak to QAC. As you work for Virgin it is safe to assume you are looking at the B737NG as your first type??? I am led to believe that QAC are well down the road to having a B737NG B1/B2 OJT book approved by CASA. Once they do get it approved you will be able to fill it out at work in your own time and return it to QAC for assessment and processing through to form 465 lodgment with CASA.
Speak to AA if you like but I don't believe they know what they are doing most of the time. I think they are in a flat spin after other 147 ATO's have overtaken them following years of market dominance and deception to the masses. If you can get an answer from them it differs significantly with who you speak to and how much money they think they can bleed you for. Buyer Beware!
Speak to QAC. As you work for Virgin it is safe to assume you are looking at the B737NG as your first type??? I am led to believe that QAC are well down the road to having a B737NG B1/B2 OJT book approved by CASA. Once they do get it approved you will be able to fill it out at work in your own time and return it to QAC for assessment and processing through to form 465 lodgment with CASA.
Speak to AA if you like but I don't believe they know what they are doing most of the time. I think they are in a flat spin after other 147 ATO's have overtaken them following years of market dominance and deception to the masses. If you can get an answer from them it differs significantly with who you speak to and how much money they think they can bleed you for. Buyer Beware!
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Gas Bags
Are you sure about the OJT?
So you are saying an young fella was working at Qantas on B737's, filling out his Qantas issued OJT booklet, he gets laid off, then he gets a job at Virgin.
So you are saying all of the tasks in his Qantas B737 OJT book cannot be used by the Virgin AMO/MTO Assesor? The young fella must then throw his Qantas B737 OJT book away and start all over again with a Virgin B737 OJT book?
Just asking and using an example. So don't take this comment the wrong way.
aintsaying
Are you sure about the OJT?
So you are saying an young fella was working at Qantas on B737's, filling out his Qantas issued OJT booklet, he gets laid off, then he gets a job at Virgin.
So you are saying all of the tasks in his Qantas B737 OJT book cannot be used by the Virgin AMO/MTO Assesor? The young fella must then throw his Qantas B737 OJT book away and start all over again with a Virgin B737 OJT book?
Just asking and using an example. So don't take this comment the wrong way.
aintsaying
Last edited by aintsaying; 23rd Sep 2014 at 07:58. Reason: spelling error
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No problem...it is not taken the wrong way!
What I am saying is the book is not transferable. The tasks are. however that will ultimately be up to the qa manager or training manager signing off on the book. If a qantas guy half fills his book and then takes up with virgin then he will need to re-enter the tasks into the virgin book and discard his qantas book as it is no longer of any use to him unless he rejoins qantas. He would also provide copies of the maintenance paperwork for all tasks carried over from qantas as well to prove they are genuine. Some sections will be operator specific and therefore not transferable...i.e. In flight entertainment, but a takeoff warning test is the same no matter what the tail colours are.
Hope this makes sense.
What I am saying is the book is not transferable. The tasks are. however that will ultimately be up to the qa manager or training manager signing off on the book. If a qantas guy half fills his book and then takes up with virgin then he will need to re-enter the tasks into the virgin book and discard his qantas book as it is no longer of any use to him unless he rejoins qantas. He would also provide copies of the maintenance paperwork for all tasks carried over from qantas as well to prove they are genuine. Some sections will be operator specific and therefore not transferable...i.e. In flight entertainment, but a takeoff warning test is the same no matter what the tail colours are.
Hope this makes sense.
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Gas Bags
Now take that Qantas fella who got the boot, but instead of him having an Qantas B737OJT book, he has an B737 SOE book/folder, etc.
Now his Qantas B737 SOE was accumulated before 26 Jun 2015, and after Jun 2015 he gets hired with Virgin, and from there he begins the Virgin B737 OJT program.
Now what will the Virgin Assessor do with the Qantas B737 SOE?
This is where it was explained to me the 75% rule, which I cannot see or find.
Anyone out there reading this, don't throw away any SOE/OJT books, even when you are an LAME. Heaven forbid if you traveled overseas and picked up another NAA licence, those books do come in handy.
Thanks Gas Bags
Aintsaying.
Now take that Qantas fella who got the boot, but instead of him having an Qantas B737OJT book, he has an B737 SOE book/folder, etc.
Now his Qantas B737 SOE was accumulated before 26 Jun 2015, and after Jun 2015 he gets hired with Virgin, and from there he begins the Virgin B737 OJT program.
Now what will the Virgin Assessor do with the Qantas B737 SOE?
This is where it was explained to me the 75% rule, which I cannot see or find.
Anyone out there reading this, don't throw away any SOE/OJT books, even when you are an LAME. Heaven forbid if you traveled overseas and picked up another NAA licence, those books do come in handy.
Thanks Gas Bags
Aintsaying.
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The Virgin assessor will never see an SOE book filled out at Qantas. SOE will not be in use anymore.
What the assessor will see is tasks written up in the Virgin OJT book that were completed at Qantas and later transferred from the old SOE book into the Virgin OJT book.
I say again. The books themselves, whether SOE or another organisations OJT, are not transferrable into a particular organisations OJT system, only the tasks contained in them are.
I have never heard of a 75% rule. In the prologue of any OJT book will be instructions on how it is to be used and the percentage of tasks that must be completed, both mandatory and non-mandatory. The percentage required will be related to whether it is a first type rating, second or subsequent, whether POC has been completed, or whether the other category on type is already held. There may be other factors but these are the main ones.
I cant speak for AA but they don't have aircraft type specific practical OJT books approved by CASA so I would be wary of treating as gospel what they have told you.
What the assessor will see is tasks written up in the Virgin OJT book that were completed at Qantas and later transferred from the old SOE book into the Virgin OJT book.
I say again. The books themselves, whether SOE or another organisations OJT, are not transferrable into a particular organisations OJT system, only the tasks contained in them are.
I have never heard of a 75% rule. In the prologue of any OJT book will be instructions on how it is to be used and the percentage of tasks that must be completed, both mandatory and non-mandatory. The percentage required will be related to whether it is a first type rating, second or subsequent, whether POC has been completed, or whether the other category on type is already held. There may be other factors but these are the main ones.
I cant speak for AA but they don't have aircraft type specific practical OJT books approved by CASA so I would be wary of treating as gospel what they have told you.
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Dont worry Gas Bags, I don't take AA words as gospel!
There are a couple young fellas who were at JHAS. They both are unemployed right now. They both have SOE books for A320 and B737, both which are about 70% complete.
Funds are not sufficient to pay for a type course and they don't have jobs to make up SOE to get the ratings. They see the Jun 2015 date getting ever closer and all they have right now is SOE.
They have been reading your comments, so thanks for the feed back it has been useful.
Aintsaying
There are a couple young fellas who were at JHAS. They both are unemployed right now. They both have SOE books for A320 and B737, both which are about 70% complete.
Funds are not sufficient to pay for a type course and they don't have jobs to make up SOE to get the ratings. They see the Jun 2015 date getting ever closer and all they have right now is SOE.
They have been reading your comments, so thanks for the feed back it has been useful.
Aintsaying
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Thanks for all the replies, lads.
As far as SOE goes, I don't have much, because my apprenticeship was one of the first to use the "new" style of journals, with the MEA competencies, which makes it virtually useless as SOE, unless I were to go chasing QF LAMEs for signatures (unlikely).
I'll get in touch with QAC to see what their situation is and then run the idea of using a QAC OJT book past the VA training manager.
Cheers,
000
As far as SOE goes, I don't have much, because my apprenticeship was one of the first to use the "new" style of journals, with the MEA competencies, which makes it virtually useless as SOE, unless I were to go chasing QF LAMEs for signatures (unlikely).
I'll get in touch with QAC to see what their situation is and then run the idea of using a QAC OJT book past the VA training manager.
Cheers,
000
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The MEA is not useless at all, and can be used as evidence. It just means that it will take longer and will cost you more $$ for it to be assessed and mapped across to something that the RTO will use.
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Gas Bags
Quote"I think you misunderstand the way ojt works...the ojt book and it's policies and procedures need to be approved by casa and included in the part 145 or part 147 organisations moe. The organisation that particular book is approved for is the only organisation that can assess that completed book and if satisfied the candidate is competent then issue a form 465 to casa."
So in this scenario If I was contracting to a employment company (Non 145 or 147) will C.a.s.a accept my application with-out a 465 form being issued before and/or after June 2015..??
Quote"I think you misunderstand the way ojt works...the ojt book and it's policies and procedures need to be approved by casa and included in the part 145 or part 147 organisations moe. The organisation that particular book is approved for is the only organisation that can assess that completed book and if satisfied the candidate is competent then issue a form 465 to casa."
So in this scenario If I was contracting to a employment company (Non 145 or 147) will C.a.s.a accept my application with-out a 465 form being issued before and/or after June 2015..??
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The two systems CASA currently have in place are CAR 31 and Part 66 for MPL. On June 26 2015 CAR 31 will cease to exist. Until that date you should be free to submit a CASA SOE directly to CASA for assessment under CAR 31. CASA will automatically issue you a Part 66 license endorsement (not a CAR 31 as nobody holds a CAR 31 license anymore). Prior to and following that date you can be assessed by an approved Part 147 training organisation who can issue a Form 465 to CASA to issue you an endorsement under Part 66. Under part 66 CASA take no place in the assessment process. They merely issue your new license. To answer your question CASA should accept your application without a 465 PRIOR to June 26, but it must be submitted under CAR 31 using an SOE book. After that date they won't. I hope that makes sense.
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Gas bags
Thanks for explaining that in simple "laymens terms"..I think a lot of others will now understand how the system will work "post" June 2015. I have heard that after this date it will be up to companies like Aviation Australia to do the assesments with a few of the local Tafe's loosing/giving up their aviation authorities.
Again ta
Thanks for explaining that in simple "laymens terms"..I think a lot of others will now understand how the system will work "post" June 2015. I have heard that after this date it will be up to companies like Aviation Australia to do the assesments with a few of the local Tafe's loosing/giving up their aviation authorities.
Again ta
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Correct...after that date CASA will not do any assessments. Look at AC 147-2. The first few pages show what training part 147 organisations can assess for category issuance (basically a license without type rating) and the rest show the different part 147 schools and what aircraft specific type training courses (theory and practical) CASA have approved them to assess.
Emergency000 the latest issue of AC 147-2 which came out a couple of weeks ago show QAC now have an approved OJT book for the A330. My guess is the B737NG won't be far behind it.....
Emergency000 the latest issue of AC 147-2 which came out a couple of weeks ago show QAC now have an approved OJT book for the A330. My guess is the B737NG won't be far behind it.....
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Thanks Gas Bags, that's good news. I'll give them a ring and clarify.
My take on the whole matter then is this: my Forms 465 and 540 are currently with CASA to issue a non-type rated B2 license. Following from that, if/when QAC have a B737NG OJT book approved by CASA, I can ship my journal to them for assessing and migration to the OJT book. If the work recorded in the journal equals 50% or more of the required OJT entries, the other 50% can be made up by POC and PCT. QAC then issues a Form 465 to add a type rating to my B2 license.
In other words, the whole thing CAN be done totally external to the employer (if one has rather deep pockets). Whether that's the exact path I'll follow or not will remain to be seen. But it's nice to get some clarity on how the system works (or should work).
Cheers
My take on the whole matter then is this: my Forms 465 and 540 are currently with CASA to issue a non-type rated B2 license. Following from that, if/when QAC have a B737NG OJT book approved by CASA, I can ship my journal to them for assessing and migration to the OJT book. If the work recorded in the journal equals 50% or more of the required OJT entries, the other 50% can be made up by POC and PCT. QAC then issues a Form 465 to add a type rating to my B2 license.
In other words, the whole thing CAN be done totally external to the employer (if one has rather deep pockets). Whether that's the exact path I'll follow or not will remain to be seen. But it's nice to get some clarity on how the system works (or should work).
Cheers
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I spoke to Chris from QAC a day or two ago. He said to give them a call again in mid-January 2015 and they should be right to start assessing 737NG OJT. So things are looking promising so far. I'll keep you all updated.
Cheers
Cheers
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Ain't Saying, I wonder if the "75% rule" you're referring to is actually the part of Part 66 where an initial type rating can be equal to 75% of the required OJT for all subsequent types. Seeing as PCT accounts for 25% of OJT towards a type rating, one can see how important that initial type rating is now.
Cheers
Cheers
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000,
I was talking to Chris back then about B777 SOE. I have many more than 4 B1.1 type ratings on this CASA licence, so the conversation was not about an first time rating at all. Conversation was about not getting SOE complete or running an practical course before June 2015. Thats when he mentioned SOE can be RPL'd over to OJT at 75%.
This was a couple years ago now, so early part 66 days.
Its a real shame as there are some good AME's out there with full SOE books and no jobs in aviation to help get the type courses sorted.
I was talking to Chris back then about B777 SOE. I have many more than 4 B1.1 type ratings on this CASA licence, so the conversation was not about an first time rating at all. Conversation was about not getting SOE complete or running an practical course before June 2015. Thats when he mentioned SOE can be RPL'd over to OJT at 75%.
This was a couple years ago now, so early part 66 days.
Its a real shame as there are some good AME's out there with full SOE books and no jobs in aviation to help get the type courses sorted.
