Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow
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"Limited" visible damage on the outside maybe, but what does it look like on the inside, given it's burnt through the skin?
Curious - other than not using Li-on batteries, what differences in terms of build / construction are there between a 787 and an A350? Do the same concerns exist?
Curious - other than not using Li-on batteries, what differences in terms of build / construction are there between a 787 and an A350? Do the same concerns exist?
Last edited by Postman Plod; 12th Jul 2013 at 20:30.
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Mcginty engineering confirm boeing in discussion to retrofit Mk I solid mahogany Li-on battery containment structure within 787 section 47.
Lead airlines evaluating minor performance penalty
Joking aside, does anyone else remember the first 70 or so 777s delivered with Carbon pax cabin floor beams connected to flight deck aluminium floor beams? Thermal expansion was not identified in the design or test phase as an issue and as it turned out the launch customers became the guinea pigs for revolutionary weight saving ideas. Ultimately, Boeing paid out. Instead, manufacture a four engined, 3 crew aircraft crafted from Stainless Steel and arrange payment to launch customers for several years free fuel. Huzzah.
Lead airlines evaluating minor performance penalty
Joking aside, does anyone else remember the first 70 or so 777s delivered with Carbon pax cabin floor beams connected to flight deck aluminium floor beams? Thermal expansion was not identified in the design or test phase as an issue and as it turned out the launch customers became the guinea pigs for revolutionary weight saving ideas. Ultimately, Boeing paid out. Instead, manufacture a four engined, 3 crew aircraft crafted from Stainless Steel and arrange payment to launch customers for several years free fuel. Huzzah.
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Initial BBC reports as I posted before said the airframe was being prepared to be towed having been parked for 8 hours. Engineering daily checks before being moved?
Last edited by Buster the Bear; 12th Jul 2013 at 20:49.
This report says Metropolitan Police are treating the fire as "suspicious":-
Ethopian B787 Fire
You will need to find the thumbnail titled "Heathrow airport closed after Dreamliner fire" (3:13 in length)
Ethopian B787 Fire
You will need to find the thumbnail titled "Heathrow airport closed after Dreamliner fire" (3:13 in length)
Last edited by fireflybob; 12th Jul 2013 at 21:00.
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If you read that rather dreadful site Airliners net, it has been agreed that ET do not have a rest area in the rear for cabin crew, only fwd for FD crew.
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For this to be an electrical resistance caused fire, I would first have to believe that some Boeing engineer was so incompetent that he was unable to read a very basic chart that defines the wire/cable size required to handle x current (amps) over y distance (feet). Additionally, if the aircraft were powered down, how much current would be flowing through these circuits? Are there circuits in the area of the burn (e.g. ELT) that are left live and do they carry enough of a load to generate the resistance/heat to trigger combustion? Once again, I would find it incredibly unlikely that the cables wouldn't be sized for the current loads.
Last edited by SalNichols; 12th Jul 2013 at 21:39.
so one small fire on a parked airplane
Any fire on a plane is a serious fire and requires a full turn-out.
It's only a small fire after it has been contained, and before then could have involved full fuel tanks going up.
The fire crews can only deal with one incident at a time, so the airport closes.
Or would you be prepare to pay for double crewing and equipment that is never used?
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It's a public relations disaster.
Just the sort of incident Boeing did not want with this aircraft.
Look a the share price nosedive.
Imagine the marketing guys trying to sell with images like this?
The Dreamliner is fast becoming a nightmare for Boeing.
Just the sort of incident Boeing did not want with this aircraft.
Look a the share price nosedive.
Imagine the marketing guys trying to sell with images like this?
The Dreamliner is fast becoming a nightmare for Boeing.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 12th Jul 2013 at 21:57.
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I would first have to believe that some Boeing engineer was so incompetent that he was unable to read a very basic chart that defines the wire/cable size required to handle x current (amps) over y distance (feet).
A plane that has no passengers on it? Requires the full turn out of the entire fire fighting operation? How about using some common sense and despatch a couple of units to fight the fire leaving a complement that is sufficient for normal operation then IF the fire gets out of control summon the rest for assistance. As I said its a knee jerk reaction typical of the world today.
I would say that they did absolutely the right thing. I also think Boeing will be very grateful that a) we are not looking at pictures of a charred wreck (whatever the cause) and b) there should be little enough damage to be able to determine exactly what went wrong.
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Postman Plod
I read somewhere the A350 has a higher percentage of composite use than the 787. I was a little surprised.
Curious - other than not using Li-on batteries, what differences in terms of build / construction are there between a 787 and an A350? Do the same concerns exist?
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How about using some common sense and despatch a couple of units to fight the fire leaving a complement that is sufficient for normal operation then IF the fire gets out of control summon the rest for assistance.
So to hear repeatedly on this thread that this is just a "minor" problem, or that they should use "common sense" is frankly getting rather tedious.
By the same logic, let's have an option button on 999 so that in addition to police / fire / ambulance, you also get to pre-determine whether it is trivial, serious or life threatening. Daft? Of course it is, so why do you expect any different at Heathrow? Is there not also the small question of smoke from a fire meaning loss of visibility?
The whole point of contacting the emergency services is that you let the experts make any decisions about when it is safe to return to normal. One report said LHR's runways were operational again after about an hour. That sounds pretty good to me, well done to all concerned - and time for the ill-informed to show some appreciation of that.
Last edited by jabird; 12th Jul 2013 at 22:08.
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I thought a PIA incident had first triggered the emergency services to a stand then the Friday Fryer erupted.
Airport closed due firefighters from both runways dealing with potential airside incidents.
In hindsight.........!
Airport closed due firefighters from both runways dealing with potential airside incidents.
In hindsight.........!
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There was another fire incident happening at the same time with a 777.
Highly trained and experienced professionals knew that a third incident at the same time could not be handled adequately.
How many simultaneous fire incidents should Heathrow be able to handle?
I like to fly safe so am happy at the closure. Less happy about plastic aeroplanes. I can see 777 orders ramping up.
Highly trained and experienced professionals knew that a third incident at the same time could not be handled adequately.
How many simultaneous fire incidents should Heathrow be able to handle?
I like to fly safe so am happy at the closure. Less happy about plastic aeroplanes. I can see 777 orders ramping up.
Last edited by Eclectic; 12th Jul 2013 at 22:28.
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Let me see if I understand this correctly:
Ethiopian 787, empty and parked away from gates for 8 hrs, no incident. It's prepped for towing and then smoke/fire is discovered?
I find this very suspicious.
Ethiopian 787, empty and parked away from gates for 8 hrs, no incident. It's prepped for towing and then smoke/fire is discovered?
I find this very suspicious.
Last edited by CityofFlight; 12th Jul 2013 at 23:24.
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A plane that has no passengers on it? Requires the full turn out of the entire fire fighting operation? How about using some common sense and despatch a couple of units to fight the fire leaving a complement that is sufficient for normal operation then IF the fire gets out of control summon the rest for assistance. As I said its a knee jerk reaction typical of the world today.
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Per Boeing website...
In addition to using a robust structural design in damage-prone areas, the 787 has been designed with the capability to be repaired in exactly the same manner that airlines would repair an airplane today — with bolted repairs. These can be just as permanent and damage tolerant as they are on a metal structure.
In addition, airlines have the option to perform bonded composite repairs, which offer improved aerodynamic and aesthetic finish. These repairs are permanent, damage tolerant, and do not require an autoclave. While a typical bonded repair may require 24 or more hours of airplane downtime, Boeing has taken advantage of the properties of composites to develop a new line of maintenance repair capability that requires less than an hour to apply. This rapid composite repair technique offers temporary repair capability to get an airplane flying again quickly, despite minor damage that might ground an aluminum airplane.
Last edited by CityofFlight; 12th Jul 2013 at 23:45.
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RFFS Experts?!
I thought it was bad enough when uninformed "pprunexperts" pontificated about knowing better than those with real knowledge. Now I've got to put up with people Monday-quarterbacking firefighters? FFS!
If you had a tube full of smoke, 2 hot spots & no clear ignition source, your plan would be to tip out just 1 appliance from the fire service? So would you be the firefighter donning breathing apparatus to go in & tackle the fire? Or are you the bloke reaching for the remote control to pause Sky News whilst you put the tea on?
So, FlatSpin, RexBanner - which are you?
If you had a tube full of smoke, 2 hot spots & no clear ignition source, your plan would be to tip out just 1 appliance from the fire service? So would you be the firefighter donning breathing apparatus to go in & tackle the fire? Or are you the bloke reaching for the remote control to pause Sky News whilst you put the tea on?
So, FlatSpin, RexBanner - which are you?