Ethiopean 787 fire at Heathrow

[Postman Plod]

"Limited" visible damage on the outside maybe, but what does it look like on the inside, given it's burnt through the skin?

Curious - other than not using Li-on batteries, what differences in terms of build / construction are there between a 787 and an A350? Do the same concerns exist?

[darkbarly]

Mcginty engineering confirm boeing in discussion to retrofit Mk I solid mahogany Li-on battery containment structure within 787 section 47.



Lead airlines evaluating minor performance penalty

Joking aside, does anyone else remember the first 70 or so 777s delivered with Carbon pax cabin floor beams connected to flight deck aluminium floor beams? Thermal expansion was not identified in the design or test phase as an issue and as it turned out the launch customers became the guinea pigs for revolutionary weight saving ideas. Ultimately, Boeing paid out. Instead, manufacture a four engined, 3 crew aircraft crafted from Stainless Steel and arrange payment to launch customers for several years free fuel. Huzzah.

[Buster the Bear]

Initial BBC reports as I posted before said the airframe was being prepared to be towed having been parked for 8 hours. Engineering daily checks before being moved?

[fireflybob]

This report says Metropolitan Police are treating the fire as "suspicious":-

Ethopian B787 Fire

You will need to find the thumbnail titled "Heathrow airport closed after Dreamliner fire" (3:13 in length)

[funfly]

Something burning in the crew sleep station could have been accidental or deliberate but the PR damage has been done fault or no-fault of the manufacturer.

[green granite]

If this had happened at altitude would it have led to explosive decompression?

[lakerman]

If you read that rather dreadful site Airliners net, it has been agreed that ET do not have a rest area in the rear for cabin crew, only fwd for FD crew.

[SalNichols]

For this to be an electrical resistance caused fire, I would first have to believe that some Boeing engineer was so incompetent that he was unable to read a very basic chart that defines the wire/cable size required to handle x current (amps) over y distance (feet). Additionally, if the aircraft were powered down, how much current would be flowing through these circuits? Are there circuits in the area of the burn (e.g. ELT) that are left live and do they carry enough of a load to generate the resistance/heat to trigger combustion? Once again, I would find it incredibly unlikely that the cables wouldn't be sized for the current loads.

[Sallyann1234]

so one small fire on a parked airplane

So much naive speculation.

Any fire on a plane is a serious fire and requires a full turn-out.
It's only a small fire after it has been contained, and before then could have involved full fuel tanks going up.
The fire crews can only deal with one incident at a time, so the airport closes.
Or would you be prepare to pay for double crewing and equipment that is never used?

[Ye Olde Pilot]

It's a public relations disaster.
Just the sort of incident Boeing did not want with this aircraft.
Look a the share price nosedive.


Imagine the marketing guys trying to sell with images like this?


The Dreamliner is fast becoming a nightmare for Boeing.

[Machaca]

To clarify locations of crew bunks and batteries on 787-8:

[wasthatit]

I would first have to believe that some Boeing engineer was so incompetent that he was unable to read a very basic chart that defines the wire/cable size required to handle x current (amps) over y distance (feet).

He/she and all the peer reviewers, line managers etc. would also be pretty incompetent not to protect the wire/cable (in the old days we used to call it a 'circuit breaker', probably its got a more important name now ).

A plane that has no passengers on it? Requires the full turn out of the entire fire fighting operation? How about using some common sense and despatch a couple of units to fight the fire leaving a complement that is sufficient for normal operation then IF the fire gets out of control summon the rest for assistance. As I said its a knee jerk reaction typical of the world today.

Have you seen how quickly a small aircraft fire can turn into a large one? What's more this one is made of plastic and a new type, that has had well publicized battery overheating problems. Finally it is parked next to buildings and other aircraft.

I would say that they did absolutely the right thing. I also think Boeing will be very grateful that a) we are not looking at pictures of a charred wreck (whatever the cause) and b) there should be little enough damage to be able to determine exactly what went wrong.

[airman1900]

Postman Plod

Curious - other than not using Li-on batteries, what differences in terms of build / construction are there between a 787 and an A350? Do the same concerns exist?

I read somewhere the A350 has a higher percentage of composite use than the 787. I was a little surprised.

[jabird]

How about using some common sense and despatch a couple of units to fight the fire leaving a complement that is sufficient for normal operation then IF the fire gets out of control summon the rest for assistance.

I have often wondered about how many airport firecrew members get to go through an entire career without every being called out to a live incident. I hope there are loads of them. However, wondering is all I do, because I understand why they are there, and they are part of the reason why the airline industry is so safe.

So to hear repeatedly on this thread that this is just a "minor" problem, or that they should use "common sense" is frankly getting rather tedious.


By the same logic, let's have an option button on 999 so that in addition to police / fire / ambulance, you also get to pre-determine whether it is trivial, serious or life threatening. Daft? Of course it is, so why do you expect any different at Heathrow? Is there not also the small question of smoke from a fire meaning loss of visibility?

The whole point of contacting the emergency services is that you let the experts make any decisions about when it is safe to return to normal. One report said LHR's runways were operational again after about an hour. That sounds pretty good to me, well done to all concerned - and time for the ill-informed to show some appreciation of that.

[Buster the Bear]

I thought a PIA incident had first triggered the emergency services to a stand then the Friday Fryer erupted.

Airport closed due firefighters from both runways dealing with potential airside incidents.

In hindsight.........!

[Eclectic]

There was another fire incident happening at the same time with a 777.
Highly trained and experienced professionals knew that a third incident at the same time could not be handled adequately.
How many simultaneous fire incidents should Heathrow be able to handle?

I like to fly safe so am happy at the closure. Less happy about plastic aeroplanes. I can see 777 orders ramping up.

[CityofFlight]

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

Ethiopian 787, empty and parked away from gates for 8 hrs, no incident. It's prepped for towing and then smoke/fire is discovered?

I find this very suspicious.

[mbriscoe]

A plane that has no passengers on it? Requires the full turn out of the entire fire fighting operation? How about using some common sense and despatch a couple of units to fight the fire leaving a complement that is sufficient for normal operation then IF the fire gets out of control summon the rest for assistance. As I said its a knee jerk reaction typical of the world today.

Fire brigades have always worked on a worse case scenario basis. A minor fire in a waste paper basket at an oil refinery might get something like a dozen appliances on the way immediately, another dozen following within ten minutes etc. I would think they do similar with an aircraft fire and treat it as if it was full of passengers and full fuelled up rather than wait whilst they make a few telephone calls first to check. With all fires they like to be absolutely sure they are completely out before leaving the scene.

[CityofFlight]

Per Boeing website...

In addition to using a robust structural design in damage-prone areas, the 787 has been designed with the capability to be repaired in exactly the same manner that airlines would repair an airplane today — with bolted repairs. These can be just as permanent and damage tolerant as they are on a metal structure.

In addition, airlines have the option to perform bonded composite repairs, which offer improved aerodynamic and aesthetic finish. These repairs are permanent, damage tolerant, and do not require an autoclave. While a typical bonded repair may require 24 or more hours of airplane downtime, Boeing has taken advantage of the properties of composites to develop a new line of maintenance repair capability that requires less than an hour to apply. This rapid composite repair technique offers temporary repair capability to get an airplane flying again quickly, despite minor damage that might ground an aluminum airplane.

[Trash 'n' Navs]

RFFS Experts?!

I thought it was bad enough when uninformed "pprunexperts" pontificated about knowing better than those with real knowledge. Now I've got to put up with people Monday-quarterbacking firefighters? FFS!

If you had a tube full of smoke, 2 hot spots & no clear ignition source, your plan would be to tip out just 1 appliance from the fire service? So would you be the firefighter donning breathing apparatus to go in & tackle the fire? Or are you the bloke reaching for the remote control to pause Sky News whilst you put the tea on?

So, FlatSpin, RexBanner - which are you?