All Engineers need to sign
With your licence and enough experience you can be registered as an engineer with the engineering council through the Raes and add the relevant letters after your name as do the design etc guys.
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whatever how they call us, we will only do one thing, fix the airplane to get it airworthy. as i don't design(real engineers) i'm monkey mechanic
and yes, i did an aviation school in europe, and the cursus i had was above B1 and B2 level course. so am i an overeducated inteligent(i lie again) engineer?
they can call me mech, tech, engineer, president, whatever, as long my pay is good.
So guys, put your proud on the side, just be good at what you do, and keep on learning as much as possible each day, that's what make de difference between individuals
ps: i rather work with a guy who has a brain that a useless stupid fully qualified B1,B2,etc engineer
have fun and enjoy your day
and yes, i did an aviation school in europe, and the cursus i had was above B1 and B2 level course. so am i an overeducated inteligent(i lie again) engineer?
they can call me mech, tech, engineer, president, whatever, as long my pay is good.
So guys, put your proud on the side, just be good at what you do, and keep on learning as much as possible each day, that's what make de difference between individuals
ps: i rather work with a guy who has a brain that a useless stupid fully qualified B1,B2,etc engineer
have fun and enjoy your day
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We are blue collar workers regardless of whatever titles we are given.
As most LAE agree, we are here to make money so as to laugh all the way to our banks as piggybank has.
Cessna, no hard feeling. UK EASA AMEL is worth the title LAE with high standard.
Now UK AOC has experienced recruiting UK EASA LAE that the wages are starting to go up. 40K min for new recruit. 50K for B2 + benefits. One UAE airlines in UK even over 55K + benefits for a EU EASA AMEL.
As I said before, Singapore/Malaysia Airlines specify on UK CAA EASA AMEL applicants, not EU EASA AMEL.
The problem is there is no consistency in the general standard of EASA AMEL among EU LAE. The German and others are unfortunately being dragged into the mud as well.
Now, you can have full level 3 B1 B2 combined course in one go. With Practical OJT/certificate, you are deem to get your EASA AMEL.
My EU colleague couldn't even find the numbering of stringers in AMM/SRM.
As piggy says, as long as they pay us decent wages, who care what they call us.
As most LAE agree, we are here to make money so as to laugh all the way to our banks as piggybank has.
Cessna, no hard feeling. UK EASA AMEL is worth the title LAE with high standard.
Now UK AOC has experienced recruiting UK EASA LAE that the wages are starting to go up. 40K min for new recruit. 50K for B2 + benefits. One UAE airlines in UK even over 55K + benefits for a EU EASA AMEL.
As I said before, Singapore/Malaysia Airlines specify on UK CAA EASA AMEL applicants, not EU EASA AMEL.
The problem is there is no consistency in the general standard of EASA AMEL among EU LAE. The German and others are unfortunately being dragged into the mud as well.
Now, you can have full level 3 B1 B2 combined course in one go. With Practical OJT/certificate, you are deem to get your EASA AMEL.
My EU colleague couldn't even find the numbering of stringers in AMM/SRM.
As piggy says, as long as they pay us decent wages, who care what they call us.
Oh that one again.
I have a degree (two in fact), added on several years more training, then a few more years doing a responsible professional engineering job - and for all that get to call myself a Chartered Engineer (and I can sign passport photographs!).
In the hangar next door to my office are people with several years at college, rather more years of training, a shedload of CAA exams passed, and they are called Licenced Engineers.
And I can sit down with them and work through systems diagrams and analysis - some stuff I'm a lot better than they are, some stuff they're a lot better than me, we're all engineers.
All of us put on overalls occasionally, all of us put a suit on occasionally.
And occasionally somebody comes into the office to fix the photocopier. They probably did a 6 week course, and are a semi-skilled technician.
I do agree with protection of the word "Engineer" for people with a high degree of education, AND training, AND assessment. I wouldn't give it to an unskilled mechanic, and I wouldn't give it to a fresh Engineering graduate still working their way to IEng or CEng. I would give it to a Licenced, Incorporated or Chartered Engineer.
G
I have a degree (two in fact), added on several years more training, then a few more years doing a responsible professional engineering job - and for all that get to call myself a Chartered Engineer (and I can sign passport photographs!).
In the hangar next door to my office are people with several years at college, rather more years of training, a shedload of CAA exams passed, and they are called Licenced Engineers.
And I can sit down with them and work through systems diagrams and analysis - some stuff I'm a lot better than they are, some stuff they're a lot better than me, we're all engineers.
All of us put on overalls occasionally, all of us put a suit on occasionally.
And occasionally somebody comes into the office to fix the photocopier. They probably did a 6 week course, and are a semi-skilled technician.
I do agree with protection of the word "Engineer" for people with a high degree of education, AND training, AND assessment. I wouldn't give it to an unskilled mechanic, and I wouldn't give it to a fresh Engineering graduate still working their way to IEng or CEng. I would give it to a Licenced, Incorporated or Chartered Engineer.
G
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We are blue collar workers regardless of whatever titles we are given.
As most LAE agree, we are here to make money so as to laugh all the way to our banks as piggybank has.
Cessna, no hard feeling. UK EASA AMEL is worth the title LAE with high standard.
Now UK AOC has experienced recruiting UK EASA LAE that the wages are starting to go up. 40K min for new recruit. 50K for B2 + benefits. One UAE airlines in UK even over 55K + benefits for a EU EASA AMEL.
As I said before, Singapore/Malaysia Airlines specify on UK CAA EASA AMEL applicants, not EU EASA AMEL.
The problem is there is no consistency in the general standard of EASA AMEL among EU LAE. The German and others are unfortunately being dragged into the mud as well.
Now, you can have full level 3 B1 B2 combined course in one go. With Practical OJT/certificate, you are deem to get your EASA AMEL.
My EU colleague couldn't even find the numbering of stringers in AMM/SRM.
As piggy says, as long as they pay us decent wages, who care what they call us.
As most LAE agree, we are here to make money so as to laugh all the way to our banks as piggybank has.
Cessna, no hard feeling. UK EASA AMEL is worth the title LAE with high standard.
Now UK AOC has experienced recruiting UK EASA LAE that the wages are starting to go up. 40K min for new recruit. 50K for B2 + benefits. One UAE airlines in UK even over 55K + benefits for a EU EASA AMEL.
As I said before, Singapore/Malaysia Airlines specify on UK CAA EASA AMEL applicants, not EU EASA AMEL.
The problem is there is no consistency in the general standard of EASA AMEL among EU LAE. The German and others are unfortunately being dragged into the mud as well.
Now, you can have full level 3 B1 B2 combined course in one go. With Practical OJT/certificate, you are deem to get your EASA AMEL.
My EU colleague couldn't even find the numbering of stringers in AMM/SRM.
As piggy says, as long as they pay us decent wages, who care what they call us.
Simply the reason we are not making 120-170k instead of your 40-60. Back in the early 80's a pilot's earnings and a mechanics were just about on par. Today a Captain is laughing much harder on his way to the bank than you are. There are many factors for pilot's growing their wage, title is certainly one of them. A rock solid contract is another, that's a different issue.
Bravo Genghis. Spot on.
Can we close the thread now?
Can we close the thread now?
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Ha ha no I think we should carry on with the my licence is bigger than yours!!
Why don't we earn the way we did. The answer is in this thread, no solidarity, im worth more than you etc. If we stuck together like pilots we would be taken more seriously, better T&Cs etc.
Extremely unprofessional chaps.
Thank you Genghis for your intervention.
Why don't we earn the way we did. The answer is in this thread, no solidarity, im worth more than you etc. If we stuck together like pilots we would be taken more seriously, better T&Cs etc.
Extremely unprofessional chaps.
Thank you Genghis for your intervention.
I'm still disappointed about losing my BCAR Section L AMEL five-digit number in favour of the 'new' seven-figure reference. 
You knew where you were with regard to other licence holders.
You knew where you were with regard to other licence holders.
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CAA is no longer issue new National BCAR Section L licences, except for those aircraft listed within Annex II. ( old aircraft etc)
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/177/8355%20Section%20I_07.pdf
Section 1-11, General Information.
So, you could have BCAR for Annex II and EASA AMEL for Airbus/Boeing with the new 7 digit reference.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/177/8355%20Section%20I_07.pdf
Section 1-11, General Information.
So, you could have BCAR for Annex II and EASA AMEL for Airbus/Boeing with the new 7 digit reference.
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Beeline
Why don't we earn the way we did. The answer is in this thread, no solidarity, im worth more than you etc. If we stuck together like pilots we would be taken more seriously, better T&Cs etc.
Extremely unprofessional chaps.
Extremely unprofessional chaps.
Pilots as we know, not to belittle are simple people who learn a technique and learn how to follow procedures, after some experience are allowed to use a little bit of common sence (a Captain). Yet they have promoted themselves over the years to the fine position they hold, first in title and pride (the glory days). Then through public perception solidarity as grown from what was said above and safety/reliability. Good for them. The negitive "I'm just a greese monkey" attitude is dragging us all down.
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
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This rose tinted perception of the old Section L BCAR oral exam with a CAA surveyor needs to be put into context I feel.
In essence, whilst it was ( in theory ) a detailed examination of your knowledge ( and lack of ) it could also be wholly dependent on the whims and personal quirks of the surveyor...for example, the one who conducted my first attempt made no secret of the fact he did not like ex RAF engineers...hence the smirk of satisfaction when I was unable to answer some obscure electrical question contained in about 4 lines within CAIP's...same individual also told a colleague just before the exam that, as he already had an engine type rating, if he failed the basic airframe..he could take his t/r of him !..he did though, meet his match with another, who, when called by his surname ( note the arrogance here ) duly responded with the surname of said surveyor...it was all down hill thereafter of course, but a moral victory nevertheless....it is my understanding however, that karma, shall we say, arrived one balmy night on a tropical beach....
My second attempt ( which I passed ) involved a rather long interrogation about, erm, aerodynamics...this being, as per Mastermind, his chosen subject.
The cessation of the oral examination did, at least, remove the wild variations of subjectivity then in force.
In essence, whilst it was ( in theory ) a detailed examination of your knowledge ( and lack of ) it could also be wholly dependent on the whims and personal quirks of the surveyor...for example, the one who conducted my first attempt made no secret of the fact he did not like ex RAF engineers...hence the smirk of satisfaction when I was unable to answer some obscure electrical question contained in about 4 lines within CAIP's...same individual also told a colleague just before the exam that, as he already had an engine type rating, if he failed the basic airframe..he could take his t/r of him !..he did though, meet his match with another, who, when called by his surname ( note the arrogance here ) duly responded with the surname of said surveyor...it was all down hill thereafter of course, but a moral victory nevertheless....it is my understanding however, that karma, shall we say, arrived one balmy night on a tropical beach....
My second attempt ( which I passed ) involved a rather long interrogation about, erm, aerodynamics...this being, as per Mastermind, his chosen subject.
The cessation of the oral examination did, at least, remove the wild variations of subjectivity then in force.
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I heard of that ex-RAF rumour too. Unfortunately, BCAR oral had its bad point.
After spending a year burning the mid night oil, I failed my basic pressurised aircraft after 1.5 hrs of gruesome torment. I swore (behind him) the surveyor was XXXX, XXXX to my colleagues.
I spent another 4 months burning more oil and passed after 45 minutes oral with more confident of the subjects. Yes, you learn to be the Master mind of aircraft.
Now, I came out of !47 school with A340 B1,B2 type and practical certificates and EASA type rating from CAA within a space of 4 months. Some do it in less than 3 months with signed OJT worksheets.
Before I power up the aircraft, I solemnly pray "don't **** on me, baby. I can only kiss (fix) you by pulling CBs and re-racking in the Avionic bay , I have no clue of tickling your tits (engines), fiddling your belly button ( press & L/D gears system) or combing your pubic hair (electrical wiring), Amen"
After spending a year burning the mid night oil, I failed my basic pressurised aircraft after 1.5 hrs of gruesome torment. I swore (behind him) the surveyor was XXXX, XXXX to my colleagues.
I spent another 4 months burning more oil and passed after 45 minutes oral with more confident of the subjects. Yes, you learn to be the Master mind of aircraft.
Now, I came out of !47 school with A340 B1,B2 type and practical certificates and EASA type rating from CAA within a space of 4 months. Some do it in less than 3 months with signed OJT worksheets.
Before I power up the aircraft, I solemnly pray "don't **** on me, baby. I can only kiss (fix) you by pulling CBs and re-racking in the Avionic bay , I have no clue of tickling your tits (engines), fiddling your belly button ( press & L/D gears system) or combing your pubic hair (electrical wiring), Amen"
Last edited by Kuchan; 11th Nov 2011 at 11:13.
I think it's worth mentioning that most pilots (that is, with the exception of airline long haul crews, short haul captains, and a few people in specialist jobs) make a lot less money than most engineers.
I make a good comfortable - but far from exceptional - salary as an Engineer i/c and a CEng and have no great complaints. I also hold a CPL with a basic instructors qualification: if I did flying instruction full time (as opposed to a few evenings and weekends as at present) I'd be dropping my pay to maybe 30% of what I make in the day-job. I have friends who are commercial instructors with fATPL/IR/ME/FI/etc... making around £25k: very poor money compared to most engineers whether licenced or graduate; certainly compared to an engineer with as many years post-qualification experience as they have. It would cost me maybe £12k to add on the bits that qualify me to fly RHS in an airliner, and take a 40% pay-cut to do so.
The best paid pilots certainly do make more than the best paid engineers, the worst paid pilots however make far less than the worst paid engineers. We have a very different pay structure to the 2-winged master race. A new LAME with a set of licences may well be doing better than a new F/O with the same airline! That F/O of-course having run up £30-£80k in training debt - far more than any engineer is likely to spend getting qualified. A new engineering graduate with a BEng on the graduate training scheme is probably on £25k - similar to a new F/O, but with probably half the training debt.
Yes, I'd like to raise our status and income, but I really don't think that it's quite as bad, particularly compared to pilots, as some have painted it here.
G
I make a good comfortable - but far from exceptional - salary as an Engineer i/c and a CEng and have no great complaints. I also hold a CPL with a basic instructors qualification: if I did flying instruction full time (as opposed to a few evenings and weekends as at present) I'd be dropping my pay to maybe 30% of what I make in the day-job. I have friends who are commercial instructors with fATPL/IR/ME/FI/etc... making around £25k: very poor money compared to most engineers whether licenced or graduate; certainly compared to an engineer with as many years post-qualification experience as they have. It would cost me maybe £12k to add on the bits that qualify me to fly RHS in an airliner, and take a 40% pay-cut to do so.
The best paid pilots certainly do make more than the best paid engineers, the worst paid pilots however make far less than the worst paid engineers. We have a very different pay structure to the 2-winged master race. A new LAME with a set of licences may well be doing better than a new F/O with the same airline! That F/O of-course having run up £30-£80k in training debt - far more than any engineer is likely to spend getting qualified. A new engineering graduate with a BEng on the graduate training scheme is probably on £25k - similar to a new F/O, but with probably half the training debt.
Yes, I'd like to raise our status and income, but I really don't think that it's quite as bad, particularly compared to pilots, as some have painted it here.
G
All nice words, but I'd still like to RETAIN my engineer status and not be robbed of it by a change of definition from a group of self-serving people with some sort of agenda/purpose.
There will always be a difference of opinion regarding who has what grade of qualification, whether it be from Oxford, Cambridge, Sunderland or Dudley.
There will always be debate over who really is the title, such as "Doctors" - of medicine? music? art? language? mathematics? physics? philosophy? or just plain Ju-Ju?
If engineers can be redefined then so can "doctors" of engineering.
On the LAE front - I spent 4 hours sitting my section L Oral exams for A&C Jet Helicopters - since found the surveyor was a bit of a stickler and that explained why we went through the whole of the Section L Syllabus.
I have since passed more A's & C's and Type Ratings, and converted to Pt 66.
I haven't written a Thesis (as such) but I feel I've earned the title quoted on my original government approved and internationally recognised licences (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer's Licence)
There will always be a difference of opinion regarding who has what grade of qualification, whether it be from Oxford, Cambridge, Sunderland or Dudley.
There will always be debate over who really is the title, such as "Doctors" - of medicine? music? art? language? mathematics? physics? philosophy? or just plain Ju-Ju?
If engineers can be redefined then so can "doctors" of engineering.
On the LAE front - I spent 4 hours sitting my section L Oral exams for A&C Jet Helicopters - since found the surveyor was a bit of a stickler and that explained why we went through the whole of the Section L Syllabus.
I have since passed more A's & C's and Type Ratings, and converted to Pt 66.
I haven't written a Thesis (as such) but I feel I've earned the title quoted on my original government approved and internationally recognised licences (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer's Licence)
The lack of a thesis is probably only a problem if you plan going into any kind of research role. Many countries - including the USA - award BEng (or equivalent) degrees without a dissertation - just the UK doesn't. Clearly, it's not got a lot to do with fixing poorly aeroplanes - although doubtless if a LAME decides to do something like an MBA or an MSc in Air Transport Management, they'll have the joys of writing plenty of such things!
Incidentally, there is a Doctor of Engineering qualification (Eng.D), it's highly regarded and takes 4-5 years for an existing engineering graduate. (I'm not an Eng.D, just for the record, plain vanilla CEng who did a PhD later - albeit in Aerospace Engineering. The PhD is a shorter and may even be an easier qualification than the Eng.D, although it didn't feel particularly short or easy to me!).
G
Incidentally, there is a Doctor of Engineering qualification (Eng.D), it's highly regarded and takes 4-5 years for an existing engineering graduate. (I'm not an Eng.D, just for the record, plain vanilla CEng who did a PhD later - albeit in Aerospace Engineering. The PhD is a shorter and may even be an easier qualification than the Eng.D, although it didn't feel particularly short or easy to me!).
G
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I'm with piggybank.
When working for a UK company with my BCAR Section L or Part 66 I was an Engineer.
While working for my US company with my A&P I was a Mechanic, now I'm a Technician.
I don't really care as long as it doesn't affect my pay.
When working for a UK company with my BCAR Section L or Part 66 I was an Engineer.
While working for my US company with my A&P I was a Mechanic, now I'm a Technician.
I don't really care as long as it doesn't affect my pay.
Avoid imitations
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wotb,
If flying was easy, they could get a mechanic to do it. 
Aircraft are just 'piloted' UAV's ! Aircrew are just an expensive PR exercise
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Shy torque
Crews are trained to do their job the best they could, same as LAE or mechanic.
Majority of LAE are down to earth and have a sense of humour to survive in the aviation environment.
You write your defects in T/L, we pen if OFF in big time.
Afterall, we do respect each others with the exception of a minority.
Crews are trained to do their job the best they could, same as LAE or mechanic.
Majority of LAE are down to earth and have a sense of humour to survive in the aviation environment.
You write your defects in T/L, we pen if OFF in big time.
Afterall, we do respect each others with the exception of a minority.