CASA Service centre.
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CASA Service centre.
The service centre was established to make CASA more efficient. How far from the truth can that statement be. Its a user pays system that does not work for the user.
Example:-
We operate a C421B, C402C, etc.....
We applied to get C421C on the AOC......
Now the district office with the Check System are to busy to complete as it is not a priority so it gets sent to another district office! Problem is that each FOI has a different interpretation of the rules and each district office the same..... Then at the end of the day how different is the C to what we already operate???
To put an aircraft addition on the AOC you must allow at least 3 months. Makes it very hard to capitilise on opportunities that present themselves.......
I've said it once and i'll say it again, CASA 6 years ago brought so many more results, it was a user friendly system and best of all not a user pays system...
Well theres my whinge, back to work...
HA
Example:-
We operate a C421B, C402C, etc.....
We applied to get C421C on the AOC......
Now the district office with the Check System are to busy to complete as it is not a priority so it gets sent to another district office! Problem is that each FOI has a different interpretation of the rules and each district office the same..... Then at the end of the day how different is the C to what we already operate???
To put an aircraft addition on the AOC you must allow at least 3 months. Makes it very hard to capitilise on opportunities that present themselves.......
I've said it once and i'll say it again, CASA 6 years ago brought so many more results, it was a user friendly system and best of all not a user pays system...
Well theres my whinge, back to work...
HA
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HA
???
C402C = C421C systems with the exception of the pressurisation group.
C421B = C421C pressurisation system group.
C421C = simpler maintenance, hydraulic gear as C402C
C421B endorsement = C421C endorsement
whats the problem.?
???C402C = C421C systems with the exception of the pressurisation group.
C421B = C421C pressurisation system group.
C421C = simpler maintenance, hydraulic gear as C402C
C421B endorsement = C421C endorsement
whats the problem.?
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GAUNTY Tell CASA that!!!
Yes as a pilot it aint no problem, but unless the AOC has C421C designated on it you can't fly it!
Remember the AOC lists individually which twins are online, its not a group like the singles used to be. Not sure how it is now but a while ago if you had C210M on the AOC you had to apply for C210N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HA
Yes as a pilot it aint no problem, but unless the AOC has C421C designated on it you can't fly it!
Remember the AOC lists individually which twins are online, its not a group like the singles used to be. Not sure how it is now but a while ago if you had C210M on the AOC you had to apply for C210N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HA
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HA
Know how you feel. It took me 6 months to add a 404 ( already had 300 series, PA31 etc) because "it is only an administrative function not regulatory, so we only can address these low priority tasks when the other tray is empty" ( a while ago now)
That's all very fine but we as operators can't take our business anywhere else ( like our customers can!) to get it done = Result - 2000 more grey hairs for me.
Good luck
Know how you feel. It took me 6 months to add a 404 ( already had 300 series, PA31 etc) because "it is only an administrative function not regulatory, so we only can address these low priority tasks when the other tray is empty" ( a while ago now)
That's all very fine but we as operators can't take our business anywhere else ( like our customers can!) to get it done = Result - 2000 more grey hairs for me.
Good luck
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Even worse with the borrowed AOC clause these days... yet who would loan an AOC these days anyway as they are too bl**dy valuable!!!
In the past it was nothing to borrow an AOC as such until it was added to the fleet...
So do you find it is getting worse and not better???
Your dead right, no sorry sir (like what happened today) your 421C will not be on the AOC but yes we agree it looks good having a servicable aircraft sitting on your line, may as well be a 5 year old again when you used to sit in the car and make the Broom Broom noises..... Oh but its alright we can just cross hire for this job!
What people need to realise is that opportunity does not knock everyday, knowing that it takes so long to apply for a variation to an AOC how do you tender for work in a different type??? In a business that is tough enough already we really cannot afford this. Fair enough if it is a totally different type but not when they are basically the same aircraft.
Simply really we already pay CASA a fortune for services unrendered, so EMPLOY MORE STAFF!!! Mmm now lets see if I was an FOI... (wakes up after putting 421C on the AOC)...
Oh well after all we are just only the operators...
In the past it was nothing to borrow an AOC as such until it was added to the fleet...
So do you find it is getting worse and not better???
Your dead right, no sorry sir (like what happened today) your 421C will not be on the AOC but yes we agree it looks good having a servicable aircraft sitting on your line, may as well be a 5 year old again when you used to sit in the car and make the Broom Broom noises..... Oh but its alright we can just cross hire for this job!
What people need to realise is that opportunity does not knock everyday, knowing that it takes so long to apply for a variation to an AOC how do you tender for work in a different type??? In a business that is tough enough already we really cannot afford this. Fair enough if it is a totally different type but not when they are basically the same aircraft.
Simply really we already pay CASA a fortune for services unrendered, so EMPLOY MORE STAFF!!! Mmm now lets see if I was an FOI... (wakes up after putting 421C on the AOC)...
Oh well after all we are just only the operators...
Gaunty. I like your logics. Care to explain those same logics to CASA?
I remember some time ago spending months getting a different model Cessna 206 on an air charter AOC. The C206 was already on the AOC (U206M maybe?) and I wanted to get the next - and identical - model on the AOC. In the interim, the second aircraft sat idle and could not be operated.
For a LCRPT AOC, the actual registrations must appear on the AOC. So whilst you may already operate the type, you can have a million bucks worth of aircraft sitting around waiting for a new AOC, showing the new registration.
Somehow the problem seems to be "selective". I don't see new QF B744's sitting around for weeks waiting the issue of a new AOC.........
I remember some time ago spending months getting a different model Cessna 206 on an air charter AOC. The C206 was already on the AOC (U206M maybe?) and I wanted to get the next - and identical - model on the AOC. In the interim, the second aircraft sat idle and could not be operated.
For a LCRPT AOC, the actual registrations must appear on the AOC. So whilst you may already operate the type, you can have a million bucks worth of aircraft sitting around waiting for a new AOC, showing the new registration.
Somehow the problem seems to be "selective". I don't see new QF B744's sitting around for weeks waiting the issue of a new AOC.........
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Selective treatment or otherwise, I would suspect QF know about their impending shiny new toys quite a way prior to their arrival, giving enough time to jump through the paper hoops before the planes hit the deck in SY. Capitalising on GA opportunities, as you probably know, often involves requiring the plane in the air tommorrow to fill the niche or contract you discovered yesterday. The concept is the same, but the scales of time and economics differ.
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AOC addons a paperwork Nightmare!!
You also dont forget you have to now personalise the check lists for each rego in your fleet. That is, you have to specify, eg if THE MANUFACTURERS POH CHECK IS'
AIRCONDITIONER( WHEN FITTED)---------------------OFF
You have to correct it and write it without the bracketed info.Oh another tip, allways use 12 point font size and never submit anything that is laminated as they will definietly not approve it.
This is a slight slant, after they originally wanted the checks word for word from the MPOH. Then of course, we are getting back to the old days when the POH sufficed totally, depending on the type of flight manual you had. I suppose no progress without change. Pitty it seems as they have a fish bowl memory( OH look a castle,....2secs........ Oh look a castle)
So in essence to get a GA plane on the AOC involves a serious breach of copyright, I think , it would be interesting to get the view of the manufacturers..........I know I am dreaming of course.
AIRCONDITIONER( WHEN FITTED)---------------------OFF
You have to correct it and write it without the bracketed info.Oh another tip, allways use 12 point font size and never submit anything that is laminated as they will definietly not approve it.
This is a slight slant, after they originally wanted the checks word for word from the MPOH. Then of course, we are getting back to the old days when the POH sufficed totally, depending on the type of flight manual you had. I suppose no progress without change. Pitty it seems as they have a fish bowl memory( OH look a castle,....2secs........ Oh look a castle)
So in essence to get a GA plane on the AOC involves a serious breach of copyright, I think , it would be interesting to get the view of the manufacturers..........I know I am dreaming of course.
Last edited by Sheep Guts; 13th Aug 2002 at 21:27.
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Sheepguts
Copyright issues aside ANY varaiation from the manufacturers POH which BTW is an integral part of the certification of the aircraft must by definition compromise the operation therof.
I would not like to be sitting in any witness box in the US and why should it be any difference here, trying to explain to the litigants and manufacturers counsel why I was not following the manufacturers FAA approved POH with which the aircraft was certified.
We are going right back to the old DCA days with what appears to happening.
I wont go into the massive breaches of copyright practised by them in the old days when they would pass on to anyone who asked the "Australian" FM and data paid for by the manufacturer to enable the "brokering" into Australia of aircraft outside the factory system.
I'm impressed, it seems our CASA FOI's have again become soooo highly qualified and experienced that they are able to second guess the manufacturer.
I mean the manufacturer only spent several godzillion dollars in the development and certification process and lives under the constant threat of multi gazillion dollar Civil Liability action.
Notwithstanding that their reputation and therefore their business is on the line also.
Copyright issues aside ANY varaiation from the manufacturers POH which BTW is an integral part of the certification of the aircraft must by definition compromise the operation therof.
I would not like to be sitting in any witness box in the US and why should it be any difference here, trying to explain to the litigants and manufacturers counsel why I was not following the manufacturers FAA approved POH with which the aircraft was certified.
We are going right back to the old DCA days with what appears to happening.
I wont go into the massive breaches of copyright practised by them in the old days when they would pass on to anyone who asked the "Australian" FM and data paid for by the manufacturer to enable the "brokering" into Australia of aircraft outside the factory system.
I'm impressed, it seems our CASA FOI's have again become soooo highly qualified and experienced that they are able to second guess the manufacturer.
I mean the manufacturer only spent several godzillion dollars in the development and certification process and lives under the constant threat of multi gazillion dollar Civil Liability action.
Notwithstanding that their reputation and therefore their business is on the line also.
Last edited by gaunty; 14th Aug 2002 at 01:38.
Gaunty. Sounds a bit like the "Australian Certification" of the Shrike 500S at 10% higher gross weight than the manufacturer and FAA approved max gross (with 30% higher payload).
Everyone in industry knows it won't fly on one engine at that weight - but somehow in the past DCA/CAA/CASA were satisfied it would!
Everyone in industry knows it won't fly on one engine at that weight - but somehow in the past DCA/CAA/CASA were satisfied it would!
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Very good points.
In summary I do not blame the individual FOI's. Most of them are understanding and genuinely want to help. What the problem is is the screwed up system.
Heres another little story for you in Pruneland.
Some time ago I applied to put a C208 on the AOC, considerable work had already been done for the C208B so we had to re submit checklists. Casa new the time deadline that we required as I was about to sign on the dotted line. Now the application went from the service centre to Darwin.... to busy back to the service centre to Canberra.... to busy back to the service centre to Moorabbin (where I happened to be at the time)...... to busy.... back to the service centre and then into the hands of someone that showed authority. It didn't end up mattering on this one as the halfwit I was getting the caravan of screwed me but if it had of gone through I would of been in a spot of bother.
There are many many many more examples of the process not working... The 421C CASA FOI's are working with me and helping me... It is the system...
Oh one more favorite... (NZ registered with trans tasman agreement)
REIMS 406 paid $xxxxx to get it on the AOC, issued with a 3 month AOC,
paid more $xxxxx to get e 3 month reissue,
paid more $xxxxx to get another reissue???????
At $75 per hour its probably not to bad during constructive work but when time is wasted it gets expensive.....
OH heres one for you folk out there, CASA were flying a Cessna 210 around during there last round of bush ramping!
What the budget been pulled in???
In summary I do not blame the individual FOI's. Most of them are understanding and genuinely want to help. What the problem is is the screwed up system.
Heres another little story for you in Pruneland.
Some time ago I applied to put a C208 on the AOC, considerable work had already been done for the C208B so we had to re submit checklists. Casa new the time deadline that we required as I was about to sign on the dotted line. Now the application went from the service centre to Darwin.... to busy back to the service centre to Canberra.... to busy back to the service centre to Moorabbin (where I happened to be at the time)...... to busy.... back to the service centre and then into the hands of someone that showed authority. It didn't end up mattering on this one as the halfwit I was getting the caravan of screwed me but if it had of gone through I would of been in a spot of bother.
There are many many many more examples of the process not working... The 421C CASA FOI's are working with me and helping me... It is the system...
Oh one more favorite... (NZ registered with trans tasman agreement)
REIMS 406 paid $xxxxx to get it on the AOC, issued with a 3 month AOC,
paid more $xxxxx to get e 3 month reissue,
paid more $xxxxx to get another reissue???????
At $75 per hour its probably not to bad during constructive work but when time is wasted it gets expensive.....
OH heres one for you folk out there, CASA were flying a Cessna 210 around during there last round of bush ramping!
What the budget been pulled in???
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Hi, I think you are all missing the point, CASA does not really give a rat's a*#se about general aviation.
The letters "C- Civil, A-Aviation, S- Safety, A-Authority" are very misleading.
Let's start with "C" Civil. If it's Civil, why is it so top heavy with ex Military vs ex General Aviation employees. Don't forget that ex military equates to Public Servant who has spent a life in receipt of a government cheque, with no idea where the salary really came from. Do you think that at any time commercial reality has been part of the mind-set? So you've laid out $1.6 million for a Caravan, don't even think about the interest on the loan repayments while the van sits idle as the government man procrastinates and obstructs at every opportunity,his salary somehow just keeps coming in while yours can't till someone actually does something.
Ok."A" for aviation, yep, they probably know that is the industry they're dealing with, but they don't really have any idea about the industry except the industry flies aeroplanes.
"S" Safety, first, this is a holy word, to be trotted out any time you expect them to get on with the job. Really, what safety activity occurs and where does it occur? There are NO safety programs targeted and presented for the actual working pilot population. CASA can target remote areas for surveillance to a degree that is unrealistic, yet they refuse to budget any safety related seminars to those same areas, rather they just want to play with the aeroclubs in the capital cities.
"A" Authority, yep, they have plenty of that to flaunt and intimidate with, but none to get on with what they need to be doing.
So where's all this leading? Well. how about the people involved with your simple request to add another type to your AOC were exposed to what they do to their customers.
Let's digress and look at the decision to buy a really good second hand car, maybe a Ford XR8 or something a bit out of the ordinary and upmarket.
Ok, so they go to the car yard, do a deal, go and get finance and buy the car. OK, no problem so far, next,depending on the State they're in, they go to the Government Dept that will reregister the car for them.
If they do their homework first, they will establish that they need to have a roadworthiness certificate, a 3rd party insurance certificate and a few other reasonable sort of requirements. Next step is to appear in person at the motor registry, present the documents at the counter, pay the cashier, get a certificate of registration and happy motoring awaits them.
HANG ON A BIT! Let's say CASA was doing the job that day. OK, we'll take those documents and we can't guarantee that we can look at them for 90 days. "You mean I can't drive my new car for 90 days? Yepp, that's right! and by the way, our fee is $xxx, and you've got to pay now!
So we tow it home and wait 90 days, meanwhile there is a little matter of three months repayments being met while the car sits in your backyard. 6 months later, they've had a look and dont like your insurance company or some other little thing etc etc. Do you really think that the minister knows how we are treated?
Not really, you see this is really just about an industrial issue, fair play, efficiency, social conscience etc do not enter into the equation.
NOW TELL ME WHY CASA's Service centre can't work like a motor registry, why can't you just walk in with all the required documentation, meet all requirements, pay your money and walk out.
Is there something we're mssing here? I don't really think so.
The letters "C- Civil, A-Aviation, S- Safety, A-Authority" are very misleading.
Let's start with "C" Civil. If it's Civil, why is it so top heavy with ex Military vs ex General Aviation employees. Don't forget that ex military equates to Public Servant who has spent a life in receipt of a government cheque, with no idea where the salary really came from. Do you think that at any time commercial reality has been part of the mind-set? So you've laid out $1.6 million for a Caravan, don't even think about the interest on the loan repayments while the van sits idle as the government man procrastinates and obstructs at every opportunity,his salary somehow just keeps coming in while yours can't till someone actually does something.
Ok."A" for aviation, yep, they probably know that is the industry they're dealing with, but they don't really have any idea about the industry except the industry flies aeroplanes.
"S" Safety, first, this is a holy word, to be trotted out any time you expect them to get on with the job. Really, what safety activity occurs and where does it occur? There are NO safety programs targeted and presented for the actual working pilot population. CASA can target remote areas for surveillance to a degree that is unrealistic, yet they refuse to budget any safety related seminars to those same areas, rather they just want to play with the aeroclubs in the capital cities.
"A" Authority, yep, they have plenty of that to flaunt and intimidate with, but none to get on with what they need to be doing.
So where's all this leading? Well. how about the people involved with your simple request to add another type to your AOC were exposed to what they do to their customers.
Let's digress and look at the decision to buy a really good second hand car, maybe a Ford XR8 or something a bit out of the ordinary and upmarket.
Ok, so they go to the car yard, do a deal, go and get finance and buy the car. OK, no problem so far, next,depending on the State they're in, they go to the Government Dept that will reregister the car for them.
If they do their homework first, they will establish that they need to have a roadworthiness certificate, a 3rd party insurance certificate and a few other reasonable sort of requirements. Next step is to appear in person at the motor registry, present the documents at the counter, pay the cashier, get a certificate of registration and happy motoring awaits them.
HANG ON A BIT! Let's say CASA was doing the job that day. OK, we'll take those documents and we can't guarantee that we can look at them for 90 days. "You mean I can't drive my new car for 90 days? Yepp, that's right! and by the way, our fee is $xxx, and you've got to pay now!
So we tow it home and wait 90 days, meanwhile there is a little matter of three months repayments being met while the car sits in your backyard. 6 months later, they've had a look and dont like your insurance company or some other little thing etc etc. Do you really think that the minister knows how we are treated?
Not really, you see this is really just about an industrial issue, fair play, efficiency, social conscience etc do not enter into the equation.
NOW TELL ME WHY CASA's Service centre can't work like a motor registry, why can't you just walk in with all the required documentation, meet all requirements, pay your money and walk out.
Is there something we're mssing here? I don't really think so.
Last edited by Woomera; 14th Aug 2002 at 14:10.
