Multi Engine NVFR - why?
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Multi Engine NVFR - why?
Does anyone know the reason why some operators require their pilots to hold a NVFR(ME) even when they hold a IFR(ME)?
Back when I did my rating, someone told me it was very useful to have a NVFR(ME) so I got one, but from my perusal of the regs, orders, etc, I can't seem to find any real benefit in it for operators.
The only thing I can think of is that it's a perpetual rating, and doesn't have to be renewed every 12 months.
Any other reason?
Back when I did my rating, someone told me it was very useful to have a NVFR(ME) so I got one, but from my perusal of the regs, orders, etc, I can't seem to find any real benefit in it for operators.
The only thing I can think of is that it's a perpetual rating, and doesn't have to be renewed every 12 months.
Any other reason?
Most people gain a SE NVFR rating first. If they later go on to do a ME/CIR they can fly a ME at night under NVFR using the priveleges of the CIR.
As you say if your ME/CIR lapses you cannot fly at night in a ME.
Also there is a difference between the recent experience requirements.
As you say if your ME/CIR lapses you cannot fly at night in a ME.
Also there is a difference between the recent experience requirements.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I seem to remember that somewhere in the regs it says that you can conduct ME charter at night, but you must be the holder of an MECIR....therefore, if your waltzing along in your ME aircraft at night, doing a charter under the VFR, then surely you must need to be NVFR-ME rated.......................I could be wrong though (I usually am).
Last edited by the wizard of auz; 11th May 2002 at 09:26.
Strange how a lot of people fly twins at night under VFR without a ME NGT VFR and think they are covered...you would think that it would be allowable to downgrade your MECIR to a ME NGT VFR....the regs and rules work in strange ways! A lot just do it
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Firstly, Don't know of any operators that insist on m/e nvfr. Not to say they don't exist of course. Seems a bit strange at least.
Secondly, it is my understanding that you can fly m/e nvfr with a lapsed m/e cir, under the regs you are still a cir holder regardless of its currency. You must however fit the currency req's for nvfr..
(Arguements pending on the above paragraph! welcome of course
)
Thirdly, a cir holder may holder may exercise the priv's and lim's of an nvfr. based on type (m/e or s/e)..
Can't be bothered finding regs this late, maybe later on if anyone's interested.
Secondly, it is my understanding that you can fly m/e nvfr with a lapsed m/e cir, under the regs you are still a cir holder regardless of its currency. You must however fit the currency req's for nvfr..
(Arguements pending on the above paragraph! welcome of course
)Thirdly, a cir holder may holder may exercise the priv's and lim's of an nvfr. based on type (m/e or s/e)..
Can't be bothered finding regs this late, maybe later on if anyone's interested.
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I just love reading all these posts about rules and regulations.
The answer is very simple.
If you are flying at night and your IFR expires at midnight, you must feather one engine as the midnight hour approaches. You can then continue the trip night VFR.
Note:
To legally do this you must be the holder of a night single engine VFR rating. ( allowing for recency rules of course )
If you guys need any further help feel free to contact me at any time.
Cat Driver:
.....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The answer is very simple.
If you are flying at night and your IFR expires at midnight, you must feather one engine as the midnight hour approaches. You can then continue the trip night VFR.
Note:
To legally do this you must be the holder of a night single engine VFR rating. ( allowing for recency rules of course )
If you guys need any further help feel free to contact me at any time.
Cat Driver:
.....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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Alrighty chuck,
Now you've gor me reaching for the books
.
Looking at CAO 40.2.1 sub 14.1
: a particular grade of CIR authorises the HOLDER of the rating to fly the aircraft of the category concerned within aus as pic or co pilot using the aids endorsed in the HOLDERS logbook when
-in pvt or awk under nvfr ...(subject to recency)
-in chtr under nvfr (different recency)
If you skip to the regs to define the term "holder"
'holder, in relation to a license or certificate granted or issued under these regs , means a person to whom the license or certificate HAS BEEN granted or issued'
Note : no references to currency...
ie: a m/e nvfr flight may continue subject to nvfr recency as long as the person holds OR HAS HELD a m/e cir or m/e nvfr.
Time for dokey to sleep now.......:o
Now you've gor me reaching for the books
.Looking at CAO 40.2.1 sub 14.1
: a particular grade of CIR authorises the HOLDER of the rating to fly the aircraft of the category concerned within aus as pic or co pilot using the aids endorsed in the HOLDERS logbook when
-in pvt or awk under nvfr ...(subject to recency)
-in chtr under nvfr (different recency)
If you skip to the regs to define the term "holder"
'holder, in relation to a license or certificate granted or issued under these regs , means a person to whom the license or certificate HAS BEEN granted or issued'
Note : no references to currency...
ie: a m/e nvfr flight may continue subject to nvfr recency as long as the person holds OR HAS HELD a m/e cir or m/e nvfr.
Time for dokey to sleep now.......:o
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I Fly:
Gees.. good question.
Maybe we could intergrate this thread with the engine feathering thread,
I bet someone will suggest practicing touch and goes with one feathered. 
Cat Driver:
.................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Gees.. good question.
Maybe we could intergrate this thread with the engine feathering thread,
I bet someone will suggest practicing touch and goes with one feathered.
Cat Driver:
.................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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chinese chicken, you're the big jul now! Looking after them for me?
okeydokey, I know of at least two operators in NT/WA that ask for a MENVFR (maybe only a culling process?)
Puff, can you explain how you come to that conclusion? Doesn't CAO 40.2.1 14.1 contradict that?
Anyway, I appreciate that a CIR allows a pilot to fly under NVFR (not sure I agree with your "once issued, always issued" theory, okeydokey - sounds a bit too flexible for Carsa).
However, I still can't see the point (from a commercial point of view) in holding a MENVFR if your current/ potential employer also requires you to hold a MECIR.
If anyone can find any actual reference to MENVFR privileges and limitations (I can't find any direct mention at all) it would be much appreciated.
okeydokey, I know of at least two operators in NT/WA that ask for a MENVFR (maybe only a culling process?)
Puff, can you explain how you come to that conclusion? Doesn't CAO 40.2.1 14.1 contradict that?
Anyway, I appreciate that a CIR allows a pilot to fly under NVFR (not sure I agree with your "once issued, always issued" theory, okeydokey - sounds a bit too flexible for Carsa).
However, I still can't see the point (from a commercial point of view) in holding a MENVFR if your current/ potential employer also requires you to hold a MECIR.
If anyone can find any actual reference to MENVFR privileges and limitations (I can't find any direct mention at all) it would be much appreciated.
oates that was the impression given to me by a few ATOs, on the basis of people that have never been issued a NVFR and only fly at night under the night priviledges of your MECIR
Last edited by puff; 12th May 2002 at 02:05.
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Ok, from my understanding the following is correct:
To fly NVFR in a M/E aircraft you must hold a M/E NVFR rating. If you hold a M/E CIR then this covers you for the M/E NVFR rating.
At this point I can't find any reference that says that your M/E CIR has to be current (renewal due) to keep your M/E NVFR rating current. *I'll do some checking as my regs and CAAPs are at work. So, if you hold a S/E NVFR rating but have conducted a M/E CIR then this covers you for your M/E NVFR rating as you already hold a S/E NVFR rating. In other words, you have conducted engine failures at night, IMC or under a hood.
Usually, pilots will undertake their S/E NVFR rating prior to the M/E CIR due to the night requirement. This (S/E NVFR rating) is perpetual and it is up to the PIC to maintain recency.
The M/E NVFR rating is an upgrade to the S/E NVFR rating. So in itself the M/E NVFR, once obtained, is also perpetual. Obviously recency conducted in a M/E aircraft at night will cover your S/E aircraft recency.
For NVFR pax charter in a M/E aircraft, the PIC must hold a M/E CIR.
As to why an operator may stipulate that a prospective employee should hold a M/E NVFR rating, I have no idea. May be a culling process, etc or even a misinterpretation of the regulations.
Hope this sheds some more light on the matter and no confusion. Will check all the regs and CAAPs.
To fly NVFR in a M/E aircraft you must hold a M/E NVFR rating. If you hold a M/E CIR then this covers you for the M/E NVFR rating.
At this point I can't find any reference that says that your M/E CIR has to be current (renewal due) to keep your M/E NVFR rating current. *I'll do some checking as my regs and CAAPs are at work. So, if you hold a S/E NVFR rating but have conducted a M/E CIR then this covers you for your M/E NVFR rating as you already hold a S/E NVFR rating. In other words, you have conducted engine failures at night, IMC or under a hood.
Usually, pilots will undertake their S/E NVFR rating prior to the M/E CIR due to the night requirement. This (S/E NVFR rating) is perpetual and it is up to the PIC to maintain recency.
The M/E NVFR rating is an upgrade to the S/E NVFR rating. So in itself the M/E NVFR, once obtained, is also perpetual. Obviously recency conducted in a M/E aircraft at night will cover your S/E aircraft recency.
For NVFR pax charter in a M/E aircraft, the PIC must hold a M/E CIR.
As to why an operator may stipulate that a prospective employee should hold a M/E NVFR rating, I have no idea. May be a culling process, etc or even a misinterpretation of the regulations.
Hope this sheds some more light on the matter and no confusion. Will check all the regs and CAAPs.
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Thanks ozblackbox, that was the way I interpreted it, and that's why I couldn't understand the need to hold both - maybe some operators out there could shed some light on this possible wives tale?
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ozblackbox, agreed.
Nothing to say the cir has to be current (see my earlier post for reference)
Oates, do those guys want m/e nvfr as well as cir? Probably a culling process if so, or do they run freight?
I fly, night recency doesn't discriminate between vfr/ifr as long as the requirements are met (1hr/3to+ld etc at night)
Nothing to say the cir has to be current (see my earlier post for reference)Oates, do those guys want m/e nvfr as well as cir? Probably a culling process if so, or do they run freight?
I fly, night recency doesn't discriminate between vfr/ifr as long as the requirements are met (1hr/3to+ld etc at night)
As BIK mentioned there are times when you can't use IFR procedures and must (or want) to use NVFR. BIK mentioned the limitations going into Scone at night. There can also be times when using a NVFR LSALT is a better option due to the different method used to calculate the protected space.
A CIR doesn't automatically entitle the holder to use NVFR procedures. The person must meet NVFR minimum experience items, some of which are not part of the CIR syllabus.
My interpretation is that the CIR must be valid for any NVFR privileges to be available. The phrase "...HAS been...issued." implies currently issued, not issued at some point in the past - otherwise it would have read "...HAD been..." or whatever. 'HAS' is present tense. Once the rating lapses it no longer has been issued.
For example I could use exactly the same terminology to refer to any other qualification that authorises and is necessary for an activity eg your medical, drivers licence or whatever:
"You may drive a car on public roads as long as your driver's licence has been issued."
Once it lapses you wouldn't read that to mean you can still legally drive...
A CIR doesn't automatically entitle the holder to use NVFR procedures. The person must meet NVFR minimum experience items, some of which are not part of the CIR syllabus.
My interpretation is that the CIR must be valid for any NVFR privileges to be available. The phrase "...HAS been...issued." implies currently issued, not issued at some point in the past - otherwise it would have read "...HAD been..." or whatever. 'HAS' is present tense. Once the rating lapses it no longer has been issued.
For example I could use exactly the same terminology to refer to any other qualification that authorises and is necessary for an activity eg your medical, drivers licence or whatever:
"You may drive a car on public roads as long as your driver's licence has been issued."
Once it lapses you wouldn't read that to mean you can still legally drive...
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Tinstaafl, the NVFR is perpetual, so the CIR doesn't have to be current for you to fly under NVFR as long as you meet the relevant recent experience requirements...
Much like operating RPT on an ATPL... just because you haven't had your recency checks doesn't meet you can't fly using your PPL or CPL.
Lancer
Much like operating RPT on an ATPL... just because you haven't had your recency checks doesn't meet you can't fly using your PPL or CPL.
Lancer
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tinstaafl,
Again, CAO 40.2.1 sub 14.1
: a particular grade of CIR authorises the HOLDER of the rating to fly the aircraft of the category concerned within aus as pic or co pilot using the aids endorsed in the HOLDERS logbook when
-in pvt or awk under nvfr ...(subject to recency)
-in chtr under nvfr (different recency)
Now to me that says that if you hold a SECIR, and have the aeronautical and recent experience, you may fly SENVFR (private and airwork only, since single engine) . If you hold a MECIR, with the slightly different recency requirements, you are entitled to fly MENVFR charter.
okey dokey, these operators don't do night freight.
Again, CAO 40.2.1 sub 14.1
: a particular grade of CIR authorises the HOLDER of the rating to fly the aircraft of the category concerned within aus as pic or co pilot using the aids endorsed in the HOLDERS logbook when
-in pvt or awk under nvfr ...(subject to recency)
-in chtr under nvfr (different recency)
Now to me that says that if you hold a SECIR, and have the aeronautical and recent experience, you may fly SENVFR (private and airwork only, since single engine) . If you hold a MECIR, with the slightly different recency requirements, you are entitled to fly MENVFR charter.
okey dokey, these operators don't do night freight.