The END Of GENERAL AVIATION CHARTER ??
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Don't want to hijack the thread, which is an important one and we need to keep it on topic, and whilst generally agreeing with LeadSled I cannot let his statement about the 208 being a non-starter in the hard world go by. That's completely wrong, my friend - even with the lousy exchange rate the low operating costs of the 208 mean it is very much a contender - around 1000 hours per year at a charge-out rate of $1000 per hour (and that should really be higher for what you're getting) means you can consider a new aircraft. That is not by any means impossible, and is far preferable to any third world solution involving rebuilding old piston twins. We're supposed to be an advanced economy, for heavens sake. BTW, I don't recall any detailed cost benefit analysis being presented at the RAAA convention, just some opinions being thrown around, unless this occurred at one of the breakout fora. Have a look at what was on offer at the Singapore airshow - no piston twins, plenty of turbine singles with more in the pipeline, piston twins are dead on the world scene except for small selling specialist aircraft like the Islander and a few Barons for rich American doctors, and that is the real hard reality. Now, let's get back on topic!
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CREAMPUFF,
I think the point on debate here is not to take the NZ or FAA rules and change tha name to Australia but to adopt the concept of rules rather than regulation for a start and then using the consultive process with the Industry and the Authority in a Ying and Yang type relationship to come up with Rules (with teeth) that suit Australia. NZ has often undergone change before australia both good and bad (GST, Employment contracts and CAA reform to name a few) and yet why do Australians seem to ignore NZ's sucesses and failures and still have to go down the same painful paths making the same mistakes only to find out that the Kiwi's were probaply right (or wrong) in the first place. The NZ CAA reform seems to be a sucess (unless runway markings is your thing) and if Australia is to go down a similar path then it makes sense to look closely at how the KIWI's achieved it thus avoiding the same pitfalls that NZ had to face during the reform process. It sounds like good management to me to do that as it would be cheaper which will ultimatly cost the industry less.
A while ago I turned up in Europe with a Kiwi ATPL and a full Aussie ATPL having flown on both licences and went through the validation process in two countries the poms and the other JAR authority were far more interested in the Kiwi one therefore both of my European validations were based on the KIWI licence. The message here is the Australian licence (thats our qualifications) has in effect lowered in value on a world wide basis and will continue to do so in it's current form (just look at alll those ICAO variations printed on your licence).
Australia needs a reform and has done for some time and I think that the initiative CASA is showing is a progressive one. Now the big question is how progressive is the Industry?
I think the point on debate here is not to take the NZ or FAA rules and change tha name to Australia but to adopt the concept of rules rather than regulation for a start and then using the consultive process with the Industry and the Authority in a Ying and Yang type relationship to come up with Rules (with teeth) that suit Australia. NZ has often undergone change before australia both good and bad (GST, Employment contracts and CAA reform to name a few) and yet why do Australians seem to ignore NZ's sucesses and failures and still have to go down the same painful paths making the same mistakes only to find out that the Kiwi's were probaply right (or wrong) in the first place. The NZ CAA reform seems to be a sucess (unless runway markings is your thing) and if Australia is to go down a similar path then it makes sense to look closely at how the KIWI's achieved it thus avoiding the same pitfalls that NZ had to face during the reform process. It sounds like good management to me to do that as it would be cheaper which will ultimatly cost the industry less.
A while ago I turned up in Europe with a Kiwi ATPL and a full Aussie ATPL having flown on both licences and went through the validation process in two countries the poms and the other JAR authority were far more interested in the Kiwi one therefore both of my European validations were based on the KIWI licence. The message here is the Australian licence (thats our qualifications) has in effect lowered in value on a world wide basis and will continue to do so in it's current form (just look at alll those ICAO variations printed on your licence).
Australia needs a reform and has done for some time and I think that the initiative CASA is showing is a progressive one. Now the big question is how progressive is the Industry?
HarveyGee,
I think we all know what's in production, and what's not.
The Air North exercise was all about the bottom line, it has to be, aviation isn't a charity. The bottom line was that the rates of return, on the basis of reasonable revenue estimates and airframe productivity, was that the Caravan was a non starter compared to a remanufactured C402B or similar. In the area/market considered.
In fact, the only case where a Caravan could make the commercial hourly rates and the utilization suggested by you ( as I recall, the Air North figures were not significantly different) without subsidy, was skydiving.
Down the southeast, what surveys have been done all show that the travelling public just don't want to know about a single engine aircraft, you can't see sell the statistics of singles versus twins to the travelling public, who have had multi engine services since New England Airways/ East West had Ansons, and Butler had DH Dragons, or DC-3 and Heron A's, or who ever operated what.
"Twin safety" might be a myth, but it is a very powerful myth, just like the CASA myth of achieving absolute safety by regulation, compliance and enforcement.
The Caravan is a great aircraft where it fits a market or operation, FedEx and Missionary Aviation Fellowship, to mention just two, prove that.
But it doesn't fit where it doesn't fit.
Back to the thread ---- The regualtory reform is/was hardly a CASA initiative, and with all due respect, it's a bit tough to blame the industry now, CASA having throroughly hi jacked what was a joint CASA/Industry effort, and entirely redirected the exercise to ensure "CASA is satisfied".
Tootle pip!!
I think we all know what's in production, and what's not.
The Air North exercise was all about the bottom line, it has to be, aviation isn't a charity. The bottom line was that the rates of return, on the basis of reasonable revenue estimates and airframe productivity, was that the Caravan was a non starter compared to a remanufactured C402B or similar. In the area/market considered.
In fact, the only case where a Caravan could make the commercial hourly rates and the utilization suggested by you ( as I recall, the Air North figures were not significantly different) without subsidy, was skydiving.
Down the southeast, what surveys have been done all show that the travelling public just don't want to know about a single engine aircraft, you can't see sell the statistics of singles versus twins to the travelling public, who have had multi engine services since New England Airways/ East West had Ansons, and Butler had DH Dragons, or DC-3 and Heron A's, or who ever operated what.
"Twin safety" might be a myth, but it is a very powerful myth, just like the CASA myth of achieving absolute safety by regulation, compliance and enforcement.
The Caravan is a great aircraft where it fits a market or operation, FedEx and Missionary Aviation Fellowship, to mention just two, prove that.
But it doesn't fit where it doesn't fit.
Back to the thread ---- The regualtory reform is/was hardly a CASA initiative, and with all due respect, it's a bit tough to blame the industry now, CASA having throroughly hi jacked what was a joint CASA/Industry effort, and entirely redirected the exercise to ensure "CASA is satisfied".
Tootle pip!!
Who dismantled the PAP?
BTW LeadSled: who dismantled the PAP? I could have sworn it was that ideas guy from AOPA. You know: whathisname....sells jelly and peanut butter.
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Harvey Gee
Spot on my friend and you neglected to suggest that it's not a case of making the punishment fit the crime, viz trying to find an aircraft that fits the perceived "acceptable rate" whatever that means or is in someones imagination. But like me I guess you are getting a bit tired of stating the obvious.
Leadsled
The correct way as Harvey and I well know is to start from the purchase price of new equipment and work from there, NOT the other way around, which is why you are all in the pile of poo that that you are now.
Geez save us from remanufactured anything, bargger, why dont we just bring back the FJ must be shedloads cheaper to build than the new Commodore
you say;
too true, and they are all using the latest technology and equipment and charging a commercial rate on its capital cost.
the exact oposite of the above.
Let me tell you somwething else for free, we would not be having all this regulatory angst 'twere the aviation industry populated with businessmen who just happened to be pilots.
AND
the punters would be paying whatever. I know because I've been there at least three times.
Why am I not surprised given the quality of the industry (defined by whoever happens to be shouting the loudest or can hijack the putative representative this week) input to the reform process.
The regulator is not blameless but considering the high farce surrounding the deconstruction of the DCA, serial head dabbler appointments, casual decimation, bloodletting, second comings and other occult shenanigans worthy of several Monty Python series, I reckon it's a miracle they have got to where they are or that anyone wants to work for them at all.
a fair bit disingenuous methinks. If you follow that line of reasoning you should also ask, where is the evidence that motor cars not certified to the latest Australian Compliance Rules is, in any way, a contribution to motor vehicle accidents.
Ah well better get the old FJ off the blocks then, knew it would come in handy one day and my beloved granny, who was alive, then insisted that we should never throw anything away and that the old way was ALWAYS the best.
Nobody has been able to make a Cream Sponge cake as good as yet.
Spot on my friend and you neglected to suggest that it's not a case of making the punishment fit the crime, viz trying to find an aircraft that fits the perceived "acceptable rate" whatever that means or is in someones imagination. But like me I guess you are getting a bit tired of stating the obvious.
Leadsled
The correct way as Harvey and I well know is to start from the purchase price of new equipment and work from there, NOT the other way around, which is why you are all in the pile of poo that that you are now.
Geez save us from remanufactured anything, bargger, why dont we just bring back the FJ must be shedloads cheaper to build than the new Commodore
you say;
The rest of Australian industry can do it,
what's wrong with Australian aviation.
Let me tell you somwething else for free, we would not be having all this regulatory angst 'twere the aviation industry populated with businessmen who just happened to be pilots.
AND
the punters would be paying whatever. I know because I've been there at least three times.
CASA having throroughly hi jacked what was a joint CASA/Industry effort, and entirely redirected the exercise to ensure "CASA is satisfied".
The regulator is not blameless but considering the high farce surrounding the deconstruction of the DCA, serial head dabbler appointments, casual decimation, bloodletting, second comings and other occult shenanigans worthy of several Monty Python series, I reckon it's a miracle they have got to where they are or that anyone wants to work for them at all.
Gaunty, have a look at the accident statistics, where is the evidence that aircraft not certified to your desired/required Part 23 Commuter or Part 25 is, in any way, a contribution to Charter accidents.
Ah well better get the old FJ off the blocks then, knew it would come in handy one day and my beloved granny, who was alive, then insisted that we should never throw anything away and that the old way was ALWAYS the best.
Nobody has been able to make a Cream Sponge cake as good as yet.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Just in case those youngsters out there despair, I will rise to T's bait.
Answer=None
One went on to become what is now called Skywest, another was an international, operated on principles later used by Virgin et al, which with another forced the introduction of APEX fares into Australia to the chagrin of Qantas and the other was liquidated after a final years profit of a fair bit over $1million for reasons entirely unrelated to aviation. All fairly and in some cases very profitable.
It did not go unnoticed that attainable charter prices collapsed by around 40% on our departure thus further locking in the race to the bottom and condemning the mining industry to second rate service until the arrival of the Dash 8 types. You see price is always interesting, but is not the main issue if you know what you are doing.
Answer=None
One went on to become what is now called Skywest, another was an international, operated on principles later used by Virgin et al, which with another forced the introduction of APEX fares into Australia to the chagrin of Qantas and the other was liquidated after a final years profit of a fair bit over $1million for reasons entirely unrelated to aviation. All fairly and in some cases very profitable.
It did not go unnoticed that attainable charter prices collapsed by around 40% on our departure thus further locking in the race to the bottom and condemning the mining industry to second rate service until the arrival of the Dash 8 types. You see price is always interesting, but is not the main issue if you know what you are doing.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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T,
I think there's a problem with your link button. I thought it would go to a site to tell us all sorts of interesting things about yourself.
For some reason, your's is pointing to some consultancy outfit.
Gee I hope someone hasn't hacked into PPRUNE and getting free advertising.
I think there's a problem with your link button. I thought it would go to a site to tell us all sorts of interesting things about yourself.
For some reason, your's is pointing to some consultancy outfit.
Gee I hope someone hasn't hacked into PPRUNE and getting free advertising.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Gather round children 
T
From the horses mouth, rather than from the other end of the animal, from whence most of the aviation "fact" touted around emanates.
I do not recall your direct involvement in any material way, your presence in the industry at that level, nor would it have been in any way useful or indeed sought, hence any views or opinions on the matter that you may form, can only be those based on rumour or hearsay and therefore totally and exquisitely irrelevant. Your very recent involvement and certainly never at this level of performance in the industry in any material way, has, at the best been "interesting" but does it qualify you to pass judgement on these and indeed most matters aviation?
(lets see it allegedly went something like..."lets cut to the chase I've been in this industry over 30 years and I KNOW that the problem was.........." as an AOPA VP, instructing Minister, BASI and advisors on the real cause of an accident
I seem to recall the last time you were challenged on whether this event or form of words, in what would have been an infamous interview if so, did or did not take place you tried to have D & G shut down.
)
You see I have ACTUALLY been there, done that and moved on and it is there for all who wish to see (I recommend getting a life instead as much more interesting) , triumphs, disasters, tragedies, wins, mistakes, wish I hadn't done that, ouch, warts and all.
Corp Air ??
For the record and my absolutely final comment on the matter, did not go 'tits up' as a result of committing aviation as the pace setter for standards, professionalism and for top rates, it was liquidated as part of a larger entity, for, as I said, reasons entirely unrelated to aviation and which ultimately forced a large legal firm to a serious settlement under confidential terms of an action that should have exposed their utter incompetance for advice given by them resulting in the wrongful incarceration of an individual.
The very dedicated and consumate professionals that made the company what it was and their client base, know the real facts.
The medical profession bury their mistakes the legal profession? don't have that luxury and usually have to settle.
My personal company was in fact subsequently retained by the liquidator and the major financial institutions for the disposal of those assets and ultimately to consult on all of their aviation portfolios and future commitments for many years after.
So bring it on, dish the dirt, all you can find and heap it on as thick as you can, because quite frankly I don't care what you or anyone choose to think, neither could I be bothered rearing up as you are wont with threats of legal action to silence any personal criticism.
Those that know me, know me, those that don't can usually work it out for themselves. Those who modify their actions and attitudes towards me on rumour and hearsay are welcome to do so and I will not lose a nanoseconds sleep.
Oh and BTW as I know you wont be able to help yourself, what I am now doing in the new homes and other construction businesses is none of your business and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my participation herein, because I have always been deeply involved in those businesses and yes they are all or have been profitable too.
T
From the horses mouth, rather than from the other end of the animal, from whence most of the aviation "fact" touted around emanates.
I do not recall your direct involvement in any material way, your presence in the industry at that level, nor would it have been in any way useful or indeed sought, hence any views or opinions on the matter that you may form, can only be those based on rumour or hearsay and therefore totally and exquisitely irrelevant. Your very recent involvement and certainly never at this level of performance in the industry in any material way, has, at the best been "interesting" but does it qualify you to pass judgement on these and indeed most matters aviation?
(lets see it allegedly went something like..."lets cut to the chase I've been in this industry over 30 years and I KNOW that the problem was.........." as an AOPA VP, instructing Minister, BASI and advisors on the real cause of an accident
I seem to recall the last time you were challenged on whether this event or form of words, in what would have been an infamous interview if so, did or did not take place you tried to have D & G shut down.
)You see I have ACTUALLY been there, done that and moved on and it is there for all who wish to see (I recommend getting a life instead as much more interesting) , triumphs, disasters, tragedies, wins, mistakes, wish I hadn't done that, ouch, warts and all.
Corp Air ??
For the record and my absolutely final comment on the matter, did not go 'tits up' as a result of committing aviation as the pace setter for standards, professionalism and for top rates, it was liquidated as part of a larger entity, for, as I said, reasons entirely unrelated to aviation and which ultimately forced a large legal firm to a serious settlement under confidential terms of an action that should have exposed their utter incompetance for advice given by them resulting in the wrongful incarceration of an individual.
The very dedicated and consumate professionals that made the company what it was and their client base, know the real facts.
The medical profession bury their mistakes the legal profession? don't have that luxury and usually have to settle.
My personal company was in fact subsequently retained by the liquidator and the major financial institutions for the disposal of those assets and ultimately to consult on all of their aviation portfolios and future commitments for many years after.
So bring it on, dish the dirt, all you can find and heap it on as thick as you can, because quite frankly I don't care what you or anyone choose to think, neither could I be bothered rearing up as you are wont with threats of legal action to silence any personal criticism.
Those that know me, know me, those that don't can usually work it out for themselves. Those who modify their actions and attitudes towards me on rumour and hearsay are welcome to do so and I will not lose a nanoseconds sleep.
Oh and BTW as I know you wont be able to help yourself, what I am now doing in the new homes and other construction businesses is none of your business and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my participation herein, because I have always been deeply involved in those businesses and yes they are all or have been profitable too.
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Part of the problem for getting a serious public debate on this has been the position of AOPA. They've lead the charge with some silly statements that have only served to undermine any real consideration of the issues.
Bill stating that GA charter will have to be the same as 747s was just a bit over the top.
I'm sure there are devils in the detail but I like the general thrust of CASA's position. Better public confidence, better for business. Good charter operators must agree.
Bill stating that GA charter will have to be the same as 747s was just a bit over the top.
I'm sure there are devils in the detail but I like the general thrust of CASA's position. Better public confidence, better for business. Good charter operators must agree.
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Quote "Good operators would have to agree"
I don't think the "Good" small ones will
There are lots of good operators out there big and small. In CASR 121B it is proposed that ALL pax carrying ops below 5700 kg be treated the same. What the smaller operators and others are saying is it's just not possible, you just can't have the same standards for a 182 or Seneca 1 going into a bush strip as you would for a C90 going Mel to Syd. Even CASA are now saying there will be exemptions for small operators. Why create a set of new regs that need exemptions. I believe there should be a line drawn between big and small and it should be based on Type Certification, the lowest common denominator is the aircraft's performance. (And the punters need to be told the difference)
If it goes ahead "as is" we could well see the end of the operators with small aircraft.
I don't think the "Good" small ones will
There are lots of good operators out there big and small. In CASR 121B it is proposed that ALL pax carrying ops below 5700 kg be treated the same. What the smaller operators and others are saying is it's just not possible, you just can't have the same standards for a 182 or Seneca 1 going into a bush strip as you would for a C90 going Mel to Syd. Even CASA are now saying there will be exemptions for small operators. Why create a set of new regs that need exemptions. I believe there should be a line drawn between big and small and it should be based on Type Certification, the lowest common denominator is the aircraft's performance. (And the punters need to be told the difference)
If it goes ahead "as is" we could well see the end of the operators with small aircraft.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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T
Maybe I have been unfair.
Thank you, Corpair was a long term project of mine and the original owners from the very early eighties of which I am very proud. We had to seed it with new equipment which was a big financial risk at the time but I new it would work with commitment and the right people. We put in most of the equipment and they operated it, Brent went on to operate the WA Govt King Air Contract for the first and last time at a real profit.
And yes I should be somewhere there, but they wont let me............. Yet.
Thats not to say I haven't tried or given up but I don't seem to fit the Public Service profile, and I think they think I'm a little dangerous which is probably true. :eek
For all the angst, controversy and dabblers surrounding them they have made some fairly substantial progress, but have become captive to the Govt agenda and industry lobbies which have diverted them from their true course.
For example after a great deal of work and meetings around one of the more important Discussion Papers and moving towards the NPRM only 2 members of the industry group turned up to the final sign off and they were IMHO the least relevant ones.
So they have to go through this long involved industry consultation process which for the most part becomes a "who can shout the loudest" routine to introduce a packet of legislation which started of as a horse and winds up as a camel.
Flogging Project homes is great fun and very interesting and gets your nose right up close to Mr & Mrs Jones or Mr and Ms Jones as they now say.
When we were mid 20's kids with babies in the seventiesl, the conversation around the BBQ was sex, drugs and Rock N Roll, nowadays it's, which builder, how big and my building horror story is worse than yours.
To hear it all, you would think that every one of the 17,000 houses built per year is about to fall down and that every one of the builders is totally incompetent.
Conflict resolution is the major skill requirement, the building bit is easy.
And while I'm on the subject our siteworks earthmover OWNS three loaders and two semis which cost over $250,000 each and he is just one of many. And he makes serious money thank you.
I wonder how many GA operators have that much capital per machine tied up in their business.
Maybe I have been unfair.
Thank you, Corpair was a long term project of mine and the original owners from the very early eighties of which I am very proud. We had to seed it with new equipment which was a big financial risk at the time but I new it would work with commitment and the right people. We put in most of the equipment and they operated it, Brent went on to operate the WA Govt King Air Contract for the first and last time at a real profit.
And yes I should be somewhere there, but they wont let me............. Yet.
Thats not to say I haven't tried or given up but I don't seem to fit the Public Service profile, and I think they think I'm a little dangerous which is probably true. :eek
For all the angst, controversy and dabblers surrounding them they have made some fairly substantial progress, but have become captive to the Govt agenda and industry lobbies which have diverted them from their true course.
For example after a great deal of work and meetings around one of the more important Discussion Papers and moving towards the NPRM only 2 members of the industry group turned up to the final sign off and they were IMHO the least relevant ones.
So they have to go through this long involved industry consultation process which for the most part becomes a "who can shout the loudest" routine to introduce a packet of legislation which started of as a horse and winds up as a camel.
Flogging Project homes is great fun and very interesting and gets your nose right up close to Mr & Mrs Jones or Mr and Ms Jones as they now say.
When we were mid 20's kids with babies in the seventiesl, the conversation around the BBQ was sex, drugs and Rock N Roll, nowadays it's, which builder, how big and my building horror story is worse than yours.
To hear it all, you would think that every one of the 17,000 houses built per year is about to fall down and that every one of the builders is totally incompetent.
Conflict resolution is the major skill requirement, the building bit is easy.
And while I'm on the subject our siteworks earthmover OWNS three loaders and two semis which cost over $250,000 each and he is just one of many. And he makes serious money thank you.
I wonder how many GA operators have that much capital per machine tied up in their business.
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Seen the AOPA News Link Lately? Press Here 
AOPA VP's News link. Press Here It looks like the AOPA President has been updating his news pages. It has been a long time. Press Here
Last edited by awetzel; 8th May 2002 at 06:39.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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The end of GA charter?....God I hope not, I have a prop and engines to pay for and then theres the mortgage and my kids need shoes.....oh god oh god....I hope this is a wind up....