What does a Flying Instructor earn ?

[Dogimed]

Good day,. .. .Just a quick enquiry as to what a flying instructor earns these days?. .. .No, I'm not ex ansett, but PPL trying to get to CPL, and now an Airline Job seems a bit complicated.. .. .Just wondering what kind of money can be earnt at Instructor job.. .. .Thanks. .. .Dog

[safeskiesabove]

hard one buddy. .good luck though. .approx $40/hr. .junior grade 3 3-5 hrs /week. .grade 3 10 hrs . .grade 2 10-15. .grade 1 10-30 . .. .that was basically the breakdown of the flying school that i use to work at.. .charter is much better financially but if you would like a career in instructing then stick at it and it will work for you, if your heart is there then you will succeed.. .good luck

[laydown]

I averaged about $20000 per year in my 5 years as an instructor - woopeee!. .. .laydown. .Q. "When did you realize that you were God?". .A. "While praying. I realized I was talking to myself."

[Angle of Attack]

Basically as previously posted you will have to start out struggling to make money and basiccally being exploited and not getting the award, but if you stick at it and have a proffesional approach and get a job with one of the larger airline flying training colleges you will be making from around $30,000 a year to $40,000 a year Grade ! IFR twin training, with as many hours you want, or dont want,

[airag]

And the above sums up why very few make a career of it !

[gaunty]

airag. .. .Correct, not even close to nearly enough <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Dogimed]

Well I guess that is why its not the career mode of choice.. .The reason I ask is, considering the issues that are associated with airline pilots, it seems much more attractive to find a good school, and stay there for a career. It would bring me continuous flying.&lt;doubt two flights would be the same&gt;, a good environment and have fun too. But after reading the above, it seems that it is not even financially viable. I would'nt mind not making x$$ a year, but enough to live would be a good start.. .. .Oh well, maybe &lt;hopefully&gt; more positive responses are around the corner.. .. .Thanks a lot for the info people, I appreciate it.. .. .Regards. .. .Dog. .. .Oh and another question. Is it unheard of to request a lower training rate in return for a lower paying rate? ie: discounted lessons to learn, only to be re-employed at said school to instruct? or even more doubtful, free IR in return for unpaid weekend work until debt is wiped off? kinda like Owner Finance i guess.. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 12:00: Message edited by: Dogimed ]</small>

[BelowTenThousand]

Dogimed.. .. .Although I'm sure your intentions are all good, I must put you straight.. .Please, Please, Please rid yourself of the ideas about prostituting yourself in return for flying. You mention doing an IFR rating then working for nicks to pay the rating off over time. THIS IS NOT ON!! Although, as I say, I'm sure your intentions are sound... just awfully misguided. The Aviation industry is bad enough as it is without guys willing to fly for nothing and take jobs off of other guys who are trying to do the right thing and earn a quid. If you search hard enough you will come across a thread in this forum where junior Instructors are doing as you mention, but have got themselves into a position of actually paying their students $20 per hour for the privelage of teaching them to fly. Prostitution!!! Owners/ Operators will love you for it, but, as I say, Its a big NoNo. It makes me mad when I hear stories like it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .Whatever you do, no matter how desperate you get, don't prostitute yourself - Period.. .. .As for how much do you earn as an Instructor? In my first year Instructing (at a very large and professional organisation- in Perth) I earned a wopping $8000. And to earn that I was at the club(oops! did I just give it away) over 40 hours a week. So whatever you do, do not think that what every one is saying about $40 per hour for about 4 hours per week is abnormal- in fact its fairly decent. 4 hours in a week is agood week, you may even be able to afford two meals a day and a can of coke. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Ok. Moral of this story - Do not prostitute yourself!!. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[Dogimed]

B10000,. .. .Sorry, I meant instructor rating, not IFR. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .I understand your point, however I dont think I would be prostituting myself. I think of it as vendor finance. I am considering a career as an instructor, to do this I must work out a financially viable option.. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The Aviation industry is bad enough as it is without guys willing to fly for nothing and take jobs off of other guys who are trying to do the right thing and earn a quid </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I would not be flying for nothing, I'll be paying off a $30000 loan. How is that prostitution?. .. .Now as to taking jobs off other guys/girls. I think it is wrong to say that. Look at the other threads around, it seems that I am a rare few that want to teach for a living, as opposed to some low timer that wants hours to get to QF or any airline. Who would you rather have teach your children to fly?. I am willing to work for little so that I can get where i want to go. Just like joe over there who wants his/her hours. The only difference is I want to teach.. .. .Tell me then, if this is the wrong way to go about it, what alternative is there? I'm struggling to afford what little flights I can.. .. .Btw: I doubt that any school would do what I propose anyway, was just a wish. . .. .Thank you for your comments also! They are productive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[BelowTenThousand]

I understand what you are saying. You want to work to pay the debt off. This is still prostitution in my mind- sorry, but I feel it is. The reason I say this is because the next guy that comes along after paying $30000 for his CPL and Instructor rating will be told, "You see Dogimed over there, he works for free here, I don't have to pay him. So if you want to fly here you'll have to do the same. Or, we could even get you flying quicker if you want to pay me $20 per flying hour. How does that sound new green CPL with a big smile on your face???". .Despite what you may believe Dogimed, aviation operators/ owners aren't loving, caring, sharing people, they are simply out to make a quick buck in an industry that already has incredibly small (read nil) profit margins, and if they can save $50 per flying hour they will do it. No doubt about it. It is up to us (as the Pilots) to stop this behaviour. Only then will this industry start to improve for the benefit of us. We must take a stand and stop the rot.. .. .Now then. As you said, you will not find a flying school willing to do what you propose due to the above reasons(profit margins), $30000 is a big debt for a flying school to take on.. .As for how to save the money to do it? I joined the military for 4 years. It was good fun and I saved heaps.. .. .Good Luck. I hope I havn't sounded too negative. There is just a fundamental issue at stake here that needs protecting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Dogimed]

B10000,. .Thanks, I just got through reading your other responses to other queries.. .. .I can see your point and at the moment am agreeing. It was just a side query to the initial.. .You see, at the moment, I am being taught sh!t, the school is lax, etc etc. It just annoys me to see this kind of thing go on. I have been *in* aviation all my life, I want to fly for a career, but the amount of times I end up with a dud instructor is ridiculous, if I wasn't so keen I would have left aviation ages ago(although latest intructor is good/company is bad). So I figure I would like to teach, I could do it better, I could share my enthusiasm. So I ask how much it pays, as above, it pays nothing, so just looking to see what else would be possible. But I do agree with you, so I guess I better go out and get that second job (making study more difficult).. .. .Cheers. .. .Dog. .. .I swear I'm not whining, just looking.

[BelowTenThousand]

Good Instructors are hard to come by. So If you want to make the Flying School better, go get that rating and work your but off doing it. Be prepared to not earn a decent wage for a few years(maybe less, maybe more- read "nightfilling" to supplement wage) and you'll get there. But make sure you stand up for yourself and the guys coming behind you and demand no less than the award wage rate. Instructing is great fun!! I loved it! Hard sometimes trying to get the message through, but amazingly fulfilling when you send that "slow learning" student solo.. .With the right attitude and personality you'll go a long way. I would have stayed Instructing if it hadn't sent me bankrupt!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Dogimed]

B10000. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> With the right attitude and personality you'll go a long way. I would have stayed Instructing if it hadn't sent me bankrupt!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">&lt;laugh&gt; or &lt;cry&gt; unsure at the moment.. .. .Surely there has to be a better way.. .. .Thanks again.. .Dog

[I Fly]

Dogimed, as BTT said, don't work for less than the award. It is not flash either. If every instructor did not work for less than the award, instructing would be considered as a career choice. Your problem with the 'dud' instructors is symptomatic of them selling themselves with the "I work for less" method, rather than with the "I do it better" method. When you are an instructor don't commit the same sins on your students. Best of luck.

[Sunland]

Dogimed; Instructing can be a great way to start your flying career but there are already too many Instructors who are willing to work for free. The pay is quite low but the work can be enjoyable. . .. .The low pay rates are partly due to;. .. .*Cost of running a training organisation. I know of schools that pay CASA, Airservices, Dept. of Education, Privatised Airport charges that have increased 25-100% in the last couple of years. Training rates have not changed much at all.. . . .*The current price of flight training. The rates charged are far too low in order for a decent wage to be paid to Instructors. Competition is good to keep rates down but a lot of students choose the cheapest school and enjoy low training rates then become Instructors and expect award wages. Instructors should get the award but average training rates need to be a lot higher. Try getting a decent tradesman or IT guy/gal for less than $75 per hour.. .. .*Current regulations; Junior Instructors in Australia require supervision. This means senior Instructors must supervise, be on duty or be contactable when junior Instructors are working. This can mean a loss of productivity to a training school.. .. .Try a school with a good reputation (if you are not happy where you are now). Talk to the Instructors and ask their opinion (ask their pay rates - if they don't mind) - also talk to the owners or managers about future career prospects. Most schools will give preferance to people they have trained.. .. .I agree with 'belowtenthousand' - don't prostitute yourself. However, the notion that - . .. ."aviation operators/ owners aren't loving, caring, sharing people, they are simply out to make a quick buck in an industry that already has incredibly small (read nil) profit margins" . .. .- Is not accurate; Most operators I know are hard working and in it for the long term 'not for the quick buck'(I know a few ratbags as well). The industry does it tough and I would like to see a more united front by operators and pilots to fight the increased charges that are levied by CASA, Airservices and the new owners of the airports.. .. .Dogimed, good luck with your future mate. Just remember - you get what you pay for.

[Yankee 4]

I doubt you'll find a flying school who will put you through the training without you paying for it either up front or as you go. The option of working to pay off your debt won't cut it with most of the operators. . .You may get casual work doing office things/hanger duties/washing planes, CFI's car etc. But don't expect anything flash... .. .It's extremely difficult to live of your flying wages when you have overheads such as loan repayments/rent/living expenses.. .. .You'll only be paid for flight time (does not include the hours of breifing) and you'll only get work if the full-time employees are full up, which can happen depending on the organistation.. .. .Think carefully as to where you'd like to do an instructors course as thats realistically the only place where you'll get work as a jnr Grade 3. Big is not always better (no pun intended <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> ) when it comes to job options, smaller schools which are busy will have less full time staff and your chances of getting work afterwards are higher.. .Try and choose a school that only runs an inst course with 2/3 people max...ones that churn out 8-10 new recruits..you've got no hope of getting flights at the end.. .. .Cost shouldn't be a barrier in your descision as most cost 9k.. .. .I have to echo the words of below 10k.....Don't work for free in exchange for flying. If the company is making money from your qualified services and you recieve no share in it...thats just not on and it's exploitation. Don't do it.. .. .As far as salaries go....anywhere between a bag of peanuts and a can of coke to $30/flying hr. Average is more like $25.. .. .Your other options are Charter or apply for an airline cadet course or the ADF.. .. .There is not one path which is the easiest...they will all require determination and commitment..ohhh and of course the most important one lots of these things. $$$$$.. . . .Still interested? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 09 March 2002, 15:05: Message edited by: Yankee 4 ]</small>

[Monst]

Doggie,. .. .Two things to be aware of when looking for a training organisation for instructor ratings, or indeed any training at all.. .. .1. Be very aware of flying schools with low, "cheap" rates on their aircraft. This ALWAYS translates to the instructors getting very little or no pay for their VALUABLE services. Therefore, also translates to very little or no enthusiasm from the staff. I have seen this so much since the begining of my training, and that was in the 80's and early 90's when things were very good!!! Imagine what it's like now!!!. .. .2. This may sound petty, but don't even consider a flying school where the instructors and staff don't even offer a smile and/or handshake when greeting you. This is indicative of a school with low morale. This has nothing to do with having an "off" day either! When a perspective student walks in....well....that's now a "good" day and a (reasonably) content instructor will show this in their manerisms and general behaviour.. .. .So many people in the aviation industry are such stiffs!!! They just stand there looking at people like they're above them. Poker faced and expressionless, they seem to think that students are just a means to an end. Well, that may be so for all of us, but some of us (ME!!!!!!!) actually passionately enjoy instructing and do it very, very well!!! (Please excuse my arrogance, but it's just the goddam truth!!!!) You will get much better results from a friendly person like me who actually knows what he/she is doing rather than some walking corpse who hides his or her lack of skill, knowledge and enthusiasm behind a facade of pseudo professionalism. Also, these "stiffs" are 'usually' the ones who say, "oh no, i'm not interested in the airlines." B.S!!!! They're usually just telling PORKIES, big time!!! There's nothing wrong with wanting an airline job, just like there's nothing wrong with enjoying instructing and SHOWING IT!!!. .. .......huhhhh (sigh), thanks......I needed that........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 09 March 2002, 22:58: Message edited by: Monst ]</small>

[ozpilot]

Doggy,. .. .You made mention of instructing probably not being repetitive. Well, in my opinion, it really can be mind-numbingly repetitive. If you like variety, definitely aim at the smaller school that does a variety of flying; eg. charter, scenics, PPL training and some CPL. Somewhere in the bush would be a good place to look for that kind of thing. However the trade off for variety may (and I am not an expert here) be the dollars.. .. .If you want a few more dollars (only a few more mind you), then big airline schools are the way to go. The trade off here though is the distinct lack of variety. The place I work pays relatively well (see the figures quoted by my ex-colleague Angle of Attack; his figures are accurate) and has looked after me. The problem is that the work is extremely repetitive. You are only there to do one thing and that is teach airline cadets how to fly. You go to the same places day in day out, and there isn't much room in the syllabus to make it more interesting. Not whingeing, just a warning.. .. .Below 10K, I used to work at the same large and professional (it is???) organisation a few years back. When were you there and where are you now? Send me an e-mail if you like.. .. .AoA, I'll be in you know where for the graduation the same time as you'll be there. We will have to catch up.