SAS storm refugee boat
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Apart from all the weighty political, legal and moral issues involved, the person I feel most sorry for is the captain of the ship.
All he has done is honour his obligations under the law of the sea by picking up those in distress. Sure, he probably should have gone to Merak in Indonesia, given that that wa the closest port. But can you imagine how intimidating it would have been on the bridge with 400 agitated boat people demanding he head for Australia? IMHO, this ship has now been hijacked by those it rescued, and the situation should be treated as such.
Nothing can now be gained by insisting that the vessel return to international waters. Unless our government is able to reach agreement with Indonesia (which would no doubt require a lot of under-the table financial incentive), the only option is to remove the "refugees" (hijackers) from the ship, and deal with them under Australian law.
Like it or not, the ship is now in our waters, has declared an emergency and is under the control of Australian authorities.
I see many potential parallels in aviation. All of us are captains, (or are aiming to be) and are used to being masters of our own craft. Think about what YOU would do as a commander if faced with something like this...
All he has done is honour his obligations under the law of the sea by picking up those in distress. Sure, he probably should have gone to Merak in Indonesia, given that that wa the closest port. But can you imagine how intimidating it would have been on the bridge with 400 agitated boat people demanding he head for Australia? IMHO, this ship has now been hijacked by those it rescued, and the situation should be treated as such.
Nothing can now be gained by insisting that the vessel return to international waters. Unless our government is able to reach agreement with Indonesia (which would no doubt require a lot of under-the table financial incentive), the only option is to remove the "refugees" (hijackers) from the ship, and deal with them under Australian law.
Like it or not, the ship is now in our waters, has declared an emergency and is under the control of Australian authorities.
I see many potential parallels in aviation. All of us are captains, (or are aiming to be) and are used to being masters of our own craft. Think about what YOU would do as a commander if faced with something like this...
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Swingwing, well written.
While I accept that Australia has been an easy target for Asylum seekers in the past, we need to consider the actual issue here.
1. If the boat people had of made it to Christmas Island, they would have been dealt with as all other boat people, but they didn't, their boat was sinking and they were rescued by a vessel at sea (honouring the "law" of the sea).
2. The Captain, does was anyone of us would have done, he attempts to sail for Indonesia, the closest port, but it faced with people threatening to throw themselves overboard. (He wouldn't be able to leave them in the water, he would have to rescue them, and they wouldn't want to be rescued).
3. He does the next best thing, take them to Christmas Island where they can be treated and processed, as have every other boat that has arrived.
4. The Australian government is riding on a technicality of law. And have now gone down the fine line into piracy by boarding a vessel which had declared an emergency by force.
Australia accepts approximately 20,000 refugees a year. Which is the highest per capita in the world, but we need to address the other issues here. How we are dealing with the refugees after they arrive.
I feel sorry for the Captain for he hasn't done anything wrong. I feel sorry for the people who have had to flee the Taliban who are "skinning" people alive.
The Western world went and fought a war in Kosovo because of what happened there, but don't even think about stopping what is happening in Afghanistan. We are all hyprocrits.
Yes, we have had enough of boat people arriving, but taking a stance on a "technicality of law" is crazy. What happens the next time a vessel declares an SOS, what happens if the vessel is Australian flagged an no one wants to rescue them...
We are all too quick to point fingers and say send them home, until you have lived in the conditions they have and endured the pain, we can never assume to think we have the right to automatically send people packing. Statistics say that out of the 400 or so people, there will be proper refugees.
I have a sinking feeling the Australian government is going to end up taking them, or we are in for a very nasty world political problem.
Besides, if we send them to Indonesia, we are going to have to BRIBE the Indonesian government to take them, how many more MILLIONS are we going to give to the Indonesians, that we could have saved by processing them??????
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Spatial Disorientation ]
While I accept that Australia has been an easy target for Asylum seekers in the past, we need to consider the actual issue here.
1. If the boat people had of made it to Christmas Island, they would have been dealt with as all other boat people, but they didn't, their boat was sinking and they were rescued by a vessel at sea (honouring the "law" of the sea).
2. The Captain, does was anyone of us would have done, he attempts to sail for Indonesia, the closest port, but it faced with people threatening to throw themselves overboard. (He wouldn't be able to leave them in the water, he would have to rescue them, and they wouldn't want to be rescued).
3. He does the next best thing, take them to Christmas Island where they can be treated and processed, as have every other boat that has arrived.
4. The Australian government is riding on a technicality of law. And have now gone down the fine line into piracy by boarding a vessel which had declared an emergency by force.
Australia accepts approximately 20,000 refugees a year. Which is the highest per capita in the world, but we need to address the other issues here. How we are dealing with the refugees after they arrive.
I feel sorry for the Captain for he hasn't done anything wrong. I feel sorry for the people who have had to flee the Taliban who are "skinning" people alive.
The Western world went and fought a war in Kosovo because of what happened there, but don't even think about stopping what is happening in Afghanistan. We are all hyprocrits.
Yes, we have had enough of boat people arriving, but taking a stance on a "technicality of law" is crazy. What happens the next time a vessel declares an SOS, what happens if the vessel is Australian flagged an no one wants to rescue them...
We are all too quick to point fingers and say send them home, until you have lived in the conditions they have and endured the pain, we can never assume to think we have the right to automatically send people packing. Statistics say that out of the 400 or so people, there will be proper refugees.
I have a sinking feeling the Australian government is going to end up taking them, or we are in for a very nasty world political problem.
Besides, if we send them to Indonesia, we are going to have to BRIBE the Indonesian government to take them, how many more MILLIONS are we going to give to the Indonesians, that we could have saved by processing them??????
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Spatial Disorientation ]
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The ship had in fact left Christmas Island and was heading to ports in Indonesia at the time the captain rescued the refugees.
I too feel great sympathy for the captain and crew of the Norwegian freighter who are now suffering greatly as a result of their selfless act of humanity.
I however have no sympathy for the selfish actions of the "refugees". Having lived and worked in a number of these war torn, politically screwed "developing nations", I do have sympathy for the plight of many of these people who suffer at the hands of various regimes because of their religion or their politics, however there are channels available to these people (UN Commission for Refugees/International Red Cross)who will arrange "new homes" for these people. However you will find that in general the "assylm seekers" do not meet the UN or Red Cross requirements for genuine refugees. The actions of these illegal immigrants mean that many of the genuine cases get pushed further down the ladder, and get labelled by people along with those who use illegal channels.
It is worth a quick look at the UN Commission for Refugees and Red Cross Websites which outline what they can do, and who they will do it for.
I too feel great sympathy for the captain and crew of the Norwegian freighter who are now suffering greatly as a result of their selfless act of humanity.
I however have no sympathy for the selfish actions of the "refugees". Having lived and worked in a number of these war torn, politically screwed "developing nations", I do have sympathy for the plight of many of these people who suffer at the hands of various regimes because of their religion or their politics, however there are channels available to these people (UN Commission for Refugees/International Red Cross)who will arrange "new homes" for these people. However you will find that in general the "assylm seekers" do not meet the UN or Red Cross requirements for genuine refugees. The actions of these illegal immigrants mean that many of the genuine cases get pushed further down the ladder, and get labelled by people along with those who use illegal channels.
It is worth a quick look at the UN Commission for Refugees and Red Cross Websites which outline what they can do, and who they will do it for.
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Agree with everything in the aforementioned posts.
Why didnt the ship continue to Indonesia?
Food for thought !
Everyone not in a good flying job here,we'll get on the Dole , we'll go on a hunger strike and demand to be taken to the U.S.A. and given the appropriate conversion at U.S.taxpayers expense.
Why didnt the ship continue to Indonesia?
Food for thought !
Everyone not in a good flying job here,we'll get on the Dole , we'll go on a hunger strike and demand to be taken to the U.S.A. and given the appropriate conversion at U.S.taxpayers expense.
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Just wondering, will my grandchildren or great granchildren have to say "sorry" to the children of the refugees for leaving them in a boat for however many weeks??
International reaction hasnt been too bad though, but i think that its going to get worse. No other country can really understand the situation we are in.
International reaction hasnt been too bad though, but i think that its going to get worse. No other country can really understand the situation we are in.
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What's the difference between refusing a Norwegian ship with refugees on to dock on Australian soil and alowing an Indonesian ship with refugees on to dock on Australian soil??
Are we going to send the SAS to turn away the next fleet of boats stuffed with "refugees" which are known to be approaching our shores??
Mind you, it could be good training for them. no other wars / conflicts worth fighting at the moment!
Also, why is it Australia that is being looked on as being "hard Hearted"? The Indonesians have more responsibility for the "Floaters" They left there and should have been returned there.
I do feel for the ships skipper though!
Are we going to send the SAS to turn away the next fleet of boats stuffed with "refugees" which are known to be approaching our shores??
Mind you, it could be good training for them. no other wars / conflicts worth fighting at the moment!
Also, why is it Australia that is being looked on as being "hard Hearted"? The Indonesians have more responsibility for the "Floaters" They left there and should have been returned there.
I do feel for the ships skipper though!
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I find it curious that initially the norwegian freighter was heading for Indonesia with these people until they coerced the captain to bring them to Australia. As one reporter said they are "Destination Shopping" seeing as how Indonesia has processing centres for refugees. And shopping they are doing considering the amount of money they have to pay the people smugglers, I would find it hard to pull together that sort of money despite having an income vastly higher than the average for where they are from, these are *not* poor people. Now the norwegians are saying that the boat is not equipped to take that number of people anywhere, why is this? They were able to head to Indonesia initially, why not now? They are complaining that the SAS are being pirates, yet they have illegally entered Australia against orders from the legitimate government, I expect that that means anyone can sail a boat into norwegian territory now without permission then? The freighter started off by doing the right thing, it has now done the wrong thing. If the norwegians persist in their course of action and we get stuck with these people perhaps we should impound the ship and sell it to finance their care and housing? I also liked the idea of mandatory 25 year sentences for the captains of the Indonesian vessels that bring people across although this would be wrong for the Norwegian skipper who wasn't planning to take them anywhere.
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I think the captain of the vessel did the only thing he could. ie Save the refugees off the sinking boat. That is his ONLY priority. When, as other have said here, he was faced with the untenable situation of having 400+ angry arm wavers in his face demanding to go to OZ, he did what he had to do to safeguard life at sea.
This captain is a man to be admired not lambasted, his actions in trying to land them, after a couple of days sitting idle was about his only course of action. After all, no other country was going to take them. It reminds me of the ship load of Jews after WWII that no country would touch...now that they are in Oz waters it's our problem, no matter what the government of the day says.
Take them in, treat their maladies, and put them straight back on the first available aircraft to Kabul.
In all good conscience we cannot just give responsibility to the captain who saved their lives in the first place, he has done his job, now it's time for the government to do it's job.
The message is everything, as we had received 1500+ of these types in the past 2 weeks, enough is enough.
This captain is a man to be admired not lambasted, his actions in trying to land them, after a couple of days sitting idle was about his only course of action. After all, no other country was going to take them. It reminds me of the ship load of Jews after WWII that no country would touch...now that they are in Oz waters it's our problem, no matter what the government of the day says.
Take them in, treat their maladies, and put them straight back on the first available aircraft to Kabul.
In all good conscience we cannot just give responsibility to the captain who saved their lives in the first place, he has done his job, now it's time for the government to do it's job.
The message is everything, as we had received 1500+ of these types in the past 2 weeks, enough is enough.
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I am all for the governments hard stance, but the fact remains that they are going to end up here whether we like it or not.
So how do we best deal with it all as a country?
I say that Timor owes us a fare bit, and it's time to start asking for the favors to be returned. Lets start refugee camps in Western East Timor, and send em all there. This has a number of advantages. It maintains a hard line stance visable to intending refugees; it maintains a humanitarian stance in looking after these people even though they aren't our responsibility in the first place; there's nowhere for them to escape to; it would provide a genuine income sourse for Timorese that is better than just handing foreign aid to them; it would go part way to showing Aussies that our tax dollars efforts in Timor were justified after all.
Alternate plan is to give em some food and some fuel and TURN THEM AROUND.
I live in Sydney, and used to be all for immigration,(indeed I thought it needed to be increased) but in the last few years I have seen the drugs, crime, violence and gangs that go with it, and it's overtaking our culture and denying normal freedom to go about their business in peace and unafraid.
Heres a thought....option C......Let em come in, but they have to live only in designated areas (ie the dieing outback towns) for the first ten years of their tenure. That will build those towns up again and revive the bush and maybe foster assimilation.....
BAH HUMBUG touchy feely doesent work......send em back.
So how do we best deal with it all as a country?
I say that Timor owes us a fare bit, and it's time to start asking for the favors to be returned. Lets start refugee camps in Western East Timor, and send em all there. This has a number of advantages. It maintains a hard line stance visable to intending refugees; it maintains a humanitarian stance in looking after these people even though they aren't our responsibility in the first place; there's nowhere for them to escape to; it would provide a genuine income sourse for Timorese that is better than just handing foreign aid to them; it would go part way to showing Aussies that our tax dollars efforts in Timor were justified after all.
Alternate plan is to give em some food and some fuel and TURN THEM AROUND.
I live in Sydney, and used to be all for immigration,(indeed I thought it needed to be increased) but in the last few years I have seen the drugs, crime, violence and gangs that go with it, and it's overtaking our culture and denying normal freedom to go about their business in peace and unafraid.
Heres a thought....option C......Let em come in, but they have to live only in designated areas (ie the dieing outback towns) for the first ten years of their tenure. That will build those towns up again and revive the bush and maybe foster assimilation.....
BAH HUMBUG touchy feely doesent work......send em back.
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Apparently the next batch of illegals have decided to sit it out in Indonesia until the outcome of this situation is known. Don't forget it is Australia that is sending millions of our dollars to Indonesia to look after them when they are there. They don't need to make the journey here, they are already safe where they are.
Wouldn't it be nice if the money that was spent on aid to Indonesia (which they don't seem very thankful for) could be spent on hospitals, police etc at home. Instead the Indonesians are taking our money for the refugees and then allowing these people to depart; so where is the money really going?
If they've paid big wads of cash to crooks to get here, how are they going to contribute to the economy if they are allowed here? I doubt they'd filling in tax returns and Business Activity Statements.
One of the roles of the SAS is to defuse hijack and hostage situations, and that's probably why they are there.
Wouldn't it be nice if the money that was spent on aid to Indonesia (which they don't seem very thankful for) could be spent on hospitals, police etc at home. Instead the Indonesians are taking our money for the refugees and then allowing these people to depart; so where is the money really going?
If they've paid big wads of cash to crooks to get here, how are they going to contribute to the economy if they are allowed here? I doubt they'd filling in tax returns and Business Activity Statements.
One of the roles of the SAS is to defuse hijack and hostage situations, and that's probably why they are there.
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Australia needs to start taking less s#it than it has in the past and take control of situations similar to this immediately! I'm proud of the stand they have taken. About friggen time too! We need to show these f**kers, that it isn't just a cruise away to this Island. Any boat should be confronted by our forces, demand identification, and then classified friend or foe. If a foe, they should be warned once to turn around or **cken BOOM!
KAOS... indeed!!
KAOS... indeed!!
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i think the navy is itching to try out the new combat systems on the collins subs and im sure the RAAF wouldnt mind if they got the chance to make sure their anti naval weapons systems still work. Why have just the SAS on this?? get the whole armed forces involved. It is a breach of soverignity and needs to be taken seriously. John Howard has taken a step in the right direction, like Blake, i do hope this sets a precedent and isnt just a one off.
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Isn't that the whole point of the Govt's actions, Capt Claret?
Surely they don't want to smell of roses. Do they really care all that much about international opinion? Especially with an election coming.
Look at that... they have 90% support, and the next batch of illegals are sitting tight.
And keeping with the aviation angle... if sighting a sinking load thru the cockpit, how many of us would steer an aircraft directly overhead, so as to prevent pax from seeing anything (so making it possible to avoid reporting the event)?
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: chips_with_everything ]
Surely they don't want to smell of roses. Do they really care all that much about international opinion? Especially with an election coming.
Look at that... they have 90% support, and the next batch of illegals are sitting tight.
And keeping with the aviation angle... if sighting a sinking load thru the cockpit, how many of us would steer an aircraft directly overhead, so as to prevent pax from seeing anything (so making it possible to avoid reporting the event)?
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: chips_with_everything ]
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As mentioned, I would assume the SAS are there to ensure that control rests with CAPT and crew (no HiJack scenario)
The CAPT was complying with the laws of the sea, both written and expected.
As for the bigoted garbage that has been posted (as in missiles/torpedoes etc): any of you have jewish ancestry late 40s? Vietnamese in the 70s (a fare whack of these are leaders/doctors/professionals etc of our current society)? Bosnian or Croation 80s?
What if you were born with name Goldstein and lived in Berlin in the 30s. Or were just a working face in SE Asia in the early 40s or an Indochinese native in the late 60s or Cambodia in the mid 70s.
Have a look at yourselves and what this country aspires to be.
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: The Crimson Fruitbat ]
The CAPT was complying with the laws of the sea, both written and expected.
As for the bigoted garbage that has been posted (as in missiles/torpedoes etc): any of you have jewish ancestry late 40s? Vietnamese in the 70s (a fare whack of these are leaders/doctors/professionals etc of our current society)? Bosnian or Croation 80s?
What if you were born with name Goldstein and lived in Berlin in the 30s. Or were just a working face in SE Asia in the early 40s or an Indochinese native in the late 60s or Cambodia in the mid 70s.
Have a look at yourselves and what this country aspires to be.
[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: The Crimson Fruitbat ]
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Fruit Bat,
How do you possibly compare this situation to the Jews? They were persecuted because of their religion and race, as they didn't fit in with the German race.
The people being discussed here are nothing like that, in fact the opposite is true. They are mostly all from Afghanistan and Pakistan, and certainly predominantly, if not all, Moslems. They would logically fit in better in Moslem Indonesia, but no they don't want to go there, they want to come to Christian Australia????
These people are also from the Country that is currently putting on trial 2 Australians, under "possible" death sentence, because they might have preached Christianity. I feel more sorry for those 2 Australians, who are in Afghanistan providing aid to that Country..........
Best regards,
"lame"
How do you possibly compare this situation to the Jews? They were persecuted because of their religion and race, as they didn't fit in with the German race.
The people being discussed here are nothing like that, in fact the opposite is true. They are mostly all from Afghanistan and Pakistan, and certainly predominantly, if not all, Moslems. They would logically fit in better in Moslem Indonesia, but no they don't want to go there, they want to come to Christian Australia????
These people are also from the Country that is currently putting on trial 2 Australians, under "possible" death sentence, because they might have preached Christianity. I feel more sorry for those 2 Australians, who are in Afghanistan providing aid to that Country..........
Best regards,
"lame"
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As a Norwegian about to move to Australia (legal immigrant), who have just booked a container going to be trasported with the same shipping company, this story is just funny. Have the following comments:
1) Maybe the interational community will open their eyes on your boating refugee problem. This kind of refugees is a international problem not only yours.
2) But from the outside your military action against a ship declared an emergency is looking a bit strange. In fact last time Norwegian ships where occupied by foreign military forces was in the "good old" 40's.
3) In the 80's the the very "kind" Norwegian goverment at the time, even sendt a boat to "collect" Vietnamees boating refugees in the South China Sea.
I better hurry up, or Norwegians and especialy Norwegian things sendt in a container on a Norwegian boat is declared unwanted on Australia territory by a "there is a election comming up"-stressed Prime Minister :-)
1) Maybe the interational community will open their eyes on your boating refugee problem. This kind of refugees is a international problem not only yours.
2) But from the outside your military action against a ship declared an emergency is looking a bit strange. In fact last time Norwegian ships where occupied by foreign military forces was in the "good old" 40's.
3) In the 80's the the very "kind" Norwegian goverment at the time, even sendt a boat to "collect" Vietnamees boating refugees in the South China Sea.
I better hurry up, or Norwegians and especialy Norwegian things sendt in a container on a Norwegian boat is declared unwanted on Australia territory by a "there is a election comming up"-stressed Prime Minister :-)
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I have always had the belief that we should
fixed up our own backyard before we let every Tom, Dick and Harry in...plenty of people out there who have spent their own hard earned money on the homeless...the government has to get its priorities straight.
the government is getting off on a technicality in this situation but what about the next flood of boat people...
and maybe spend some more money on Australia's aviation industry.
fixed up our own backyard before we let every Tom, Dick and Harry in...plenty of people out there who have spent their own hard earned money on the homeless...the government has to get its priorities straight.
the government is getting off on a technicality in this situation but what about the next flood of boat people...
and maybe spend some more money on Australia's aviation industry.