Solo practice of stall recovery
My two cents worth.... .. .It used to be that the CAA,DCA etc mandated 33 hours for a RPPL to be issued. . .. .Then due to lobbying from ultralight/glider pilots who wanted to crossover the minimum for a GFPT holder was reduced to 20 hours (5 PIC).. .. .Most Instructors where I was at that time used to quote prospective students 40 hours to gain an RPPL. Then suddenly flying some schools were promoting 20 hours, and we were back to lowest common denominator.. .. .Nowadays people quote 40 hours for a full PPL!. .. .Given that an "average" student (no such thing I know) will take 10-12 hours to go solo it does not leave much "spare" practice time.. .. .Most prospective students ask what is the minimum time to gain a licence NOT what is the minimum time to make me a competent and confident pilot.. .. .Once the competencies from the Day VFR syllabus are checked most Instructors spend more time on perceived more important areas, landings PFL etc. I don't dare to speak for all Instructors but that is my observation. . .. .I do agree with using aerobats for ab-initio or at least doing a run in a Robin etc. to show students what an aircraft will do. Without fail showing a (willing) student some gentle aerobatics (acrobatics according to CASA) improved their confidence in the aircraft.
Thread Starter
Teaching students to fly a VASIS approach purely because one day he will be a real airline pilot? What utter rubbish. A Warrior or Cessna with full flap down needs damn near cruise power to hold a three degree path in a strong wind.. .In any case he or she will learn how to fly the slope in a simulator long before flying the real aircraft.. .And what happens when he has to glide in on a forced landing with full flap which means almost a 10 degree glide angle over trees. If he has been brought up on a diet of VASIS approaches he will likely clobber the trees.. .. .Solo stalling and solo spinning? No big deal. We did it in Tigers with only 12 hours in log books and in Mustangs with 212 hours in log books which is about same hours that most grade 3's have got on completion of the instructors course.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australasia.
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Minor comment. If I dragged a BN-3 in on 3 degree slope, at flap 56, then the bean counters may ask questions! Why? Lastly, should I crank up a pretend APU on downwind based on possibly flying a Boeing/Airbus one day?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Aus
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arm/Mango,. .lol, I think you're right.. .. .Sand Dune'. .Sorry to sound too harsh ol' chap. You're entitled to your view. Didn't mean to sound like a pprune a-hole.. .. .I still think solo stall practise isn't called for (ask any C150/2 whose been in a flat spin). Ie many of those pilots may not reply due to subterrainian locality disorders... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
A perspective from other end of spectrum...there is nothing that gives you the willys more than an instructor who hasn't got his s**t together. Its enought to make you change schools. I agree fully if you are going to instruct, learn the trade. Do not be a seat warmer. My first instructor was aerobat rated and it shows in confidence and attitude. I had one instructor who was a NASA graduate and it showed too. Face it the student is paying to LEARN. Your attitude WILL be immitated. Being an instructor isn't just another rating. . .. .Tell me do we still get a demo on airstarting a stopped prop as part of the GFPT like it used to be for RPL. Whats more fun..stopping it or starting it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Regards
okeydokey. .. .The FLAT spin in a C150/2? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .I have spun plenty of C152 aircraft and often to a fully developed spin, which means hands and feet off it stays stable in the spin but no FLAT spins. . .. .I am still here to type about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: flat spin in C150s/C152s: Have never experienced one myself but I have heard of a couple of incidents where a 150/2 spin flattened. In one case the cause was that the CofG was outside the allowable range due to 30+ years of paint on the empennage!. .. .I believe also that the use of in-spin aileron during a spin in a C150/C152 (or significant power in a left spin) will also cause it to flatten.. .. .Never tried it myself though as I imagine it would be nice to start at 8-10k just in case, and have never had the interest to climb a 150 that high <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Moderator
These 150/152s which you chaps are spinning willy nilly .... are they acrobatic certified ? ... or, if operated in the utility category does the AFM permit spinning for the specific model range ? and under what restrictions ? (It is so long since I have been in one I can't recall what the POH says).. .. .Do your students understand the distinctions between normal, utility, and acrobatic categories ? Do they ever check the CG limits for such operations ? Are they aware of the significance of aft CG position and limits on stall and spin recovery ?. .. .A quick look at the TCDS indicates that normal, relatively docile stalls (ie "slow deceleration" ).... and spinning with a slow deceleration is approved ... but I have my doubts as to whether Mr Cessna intended for the aircraft to sustain some of the entries I have had described to me.. .. .As to not practising something which a ham fisted pilot can get into without any real difficulty, especially turning final after a badly misjudged base ... but the TCDS precludes spinning with flaps ... what do you do for this situation ?. . . . <small>[ 30 March 2002, 09:51: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]</small>
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stall recovery should be automatic , thus it must be a memory subroutine, which requires frequent practise.. .When I learnt power flying a small time was devoted to stalls compared with the curriculum for glider training.. .I teach my gliding students stalls and spins recurrently and frequently use incipient spin recovery as a test point in annual proficiency checks.. . The pilot must practise as a student and throughout their career,. . The FIRST movement in wing level stall or incipient spin must be instinctive forward movement of the stick ( column) and should be practised ad nauseum!!. .Rudder is used to correct yaw.. . It will not "pick up " a stalled wing.. .Practise makes perfect.. .Try gliding for an hour or two with a competent instructor if you want to practise stalls and spins.. .You may like it and it does not cost an arm and a leg and it is QUIET.. .After all the fan is only there to keep you cool.. .. .Cirrus
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Formerly of Nam
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JT yeh some of these 152s are "aerobatic." I tried one once a few years ago for the hell of it. Thing has a steering-wheel instead of a stick (a sticks more natural for use in aerobatics). I use the term "aerobatic" loosley because its under-powered as b*ggery, has no inverted carbey (not that thats a big deal), cannot spin properley even when you spin in the direction to utilise torque AND use full out of spin aileron, negative-G isnt permitted at all, and need an entering speed of bloodey near Vne to keep your @rse anywhere near the seat at the top of a loop (speed drop-off is far too high even with full power).. .Found it ok for wing-overs, stall-turns and falling leaf though. Barral rolls ok if you got the huge amounts of speed and power (not avbl on hot days).
Moderator
Indeed some models are acrobatic category, but most are utility .. quite a different story. The TCDS suggests that inverted flight is prohibited ... the carb question is, therefore, not relevant ... .. .According to the TCDS the acrobatic models appear to be OK for -3g clean ?. .. .To balance Cirrus Driver's comment about recovery, it is essential to follow the recovery prescribed for the specific aircraft. In the case of the 150, the TCDS suggests .. Spin Recovery: opposite rudder - forward elevator - neutralize controls. . . . <small>[ 30 March 2002, 10:32: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]</small>
Thread Starter
Mark Jones. Interesting question re practice air-starts by diving.
This was important in Tiger Moths which were not equipped with a starter motor.
There should be no requirement to carry out this exercise in Cessnas, Warriors etc because they all have starter motors.
If the starter motor is inoperative when you sign for the aeroplane you should refuse to accept the aircraft.
There is no doubt that propellers have been known to stop during stalling practice and that is exactly why you need a serviceable starter motor. I had a propeller stop in a C150 during a low level gliding turn and it was only the starter motor that was between me and a ditching.
This was important in Tiger Moths which were not equipped with a starter motor.
There should be no requirement to carry out this exercise in Cessnas, Warriors etc because they all have starter motors.
If the starter motor is inoperative when you sign for the aeroplane you should refuse to accept the aircraft.
There is no doubt that propellers have been known to stop during stalling practice and that is exactly why you need a serviceable starter motor. I had a propeller stop in a C150 during a low level gliding turn and it was only the starter motor that was between me and a ditching.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Correct Centaurus , As I said it was a once only demo before my RPPL test. Makes sense with the old tigers. With C152 it required a fare amount of speed somewhere up near 130kts to get prop to spin (Lots of forward stick
lots of altitude with precautions taken, potential ldg site etc.) A good use I thought of at time if ever I had a catastrophic failure of motor, re-seriously out of balance and threatening to tear engine mounts,loss of said engine resulting in serious aft CG situation which would not do good for spin recovery technique
With regard to using starter in flight. It could result in bendix unit hanging up causing starter to over spin into oblivion. Easily checked on ground after saving ones arse.
Regards
LIKE these new toys
lots of altitude with precautions taken, potential ldg site etc.) A good use I thought of at time if ever I had a catastrophic failure of motor, re-seriously out of balance and threatening to tear engine mounts,loss of said engine resulting in serious aft CG situation which would not do good for spin recovery technique With regard to using starter in flight. It could result in bendix unit hanging up causing starter to over spin into oblivion. Easily checked on ground after saving ones arse.
Regards
LIKE these new toys
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JT, it does vary from individual aircraft to individual aircraft in the cessna line. Most 150/152 are utility category, but not all. Some as you know are certified for aerobatics, but as slash pointed out are not particularly enthralling at it! There are also 172's certified in utility category, (we had one.....) which according to Mr Cessna, enables spins to be undertaken in them. The old style flight manual stated exactly that.