Why Give Ansett Crews Such Preferential Treatment
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Why Give Ansett Crews Such Preferential Treatment
I feel sorry for the guys who lost their jobs at Ansett, just as I would if any pilot lost his/her job, however can someone explain to me what makes these pilots with their previously highly paid jobs more important than any other poor bastard who loses his job in this most mercenary of industries.
I lost my job some years back when a company I was with went tits-up, and I cant recall the government doing anything for me (except supplying me with the dole.)\
There was no call for other companies who might be looking for pilots to have to employ myself or fellow out-of-work pilots from my company before they could expand, such as Virgin has been advised to do by John Anderson.
For the dull ones out there, my point is that the Ansett pilots deserve to be able to apply for any jobs that may become available, but they should do so on the same basis as everyone else, and not with any government preferential treatment.
Let them achieve any new jobs on their abilities and aptitude like everyone else must.
I lost my job some years back when a company I was with went tits-up, and I cant recall the government doing anything for me (except supplying me with the dole.)\
There was no call for other companies who might be looking for pilots to have to employ myself or fellow out-of-work pilots from my company before they could expand, such as Virgin has been advised to do by John Anderson.
For the dull ones out there, my point is that the Ansett pilots deserve to be able to apply for any jobs that may become available, but they should do so on the same basis as everyone else, and not with any government preferential treatment.
Let them achieve any new jobs on their abilities and aptitude like everyone else must.
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Hear! Hear! The AN pilots are not better than any other pilots - they're simply overpaid.
The govt never assisted any other unemployed pilots in this manner. Let the AN pilots take their chances like any other.
The govt never assisted any other unemployed pilots in this manner. Let the AN pilots take their chances like any other.
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The King:- I fear your ID says it all, delusions of grandeur coupled with a huge chip on your ermine-clad shoulder. I haven't heard, or read, of any demand for preferential treatment for ex-AN pilots, indeed it can be shown that, even those returning to limited work under the Administrator are employed on minimal pay and conditions. For example, on another thread the other day, I commented that KD S340 pilots are flying in the right seat as Year1 F/Os, and in the left seat as Year5 Captains, with NO allowances, (DTA, etc.), irrespective of previous status.
I suspect that your previous experiences have soured your regal nature, and you feel the necessity to denigrate others now in the same position. If so, you have my sympathies, both for your experiences and subsequent disillusionment, but please try to restrain yourself to reality as it is , not as you perceive it to be. Life is tough enough for all just now, please try to make it a little more pleasant for everyone.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I suspect that your previous experiences have soured your regal nature, and you feel the necessity to denigrate others now in the same position. If so, you have my sympathies, both for your experiences and subsequent disillusionment, but please try to restrain yourself to reality as it is , not as you perceive it to be. Life is tough enough for all just now, please try to make it a little more pleasant for everyone.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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I understand your anger guys, but ther is an election on! the govt has to be seen to be taking a pro-active stance dont they? Whether they mean what they say will be proven in the months after the election. Dont get too wound up by an election promise from politicians!! Are you the only two people in Australia that believe election promises from either party? If you are, I would like to welcome you to the Australian democratic process comrades, I hope your boat trip from Iraq wasnt too uncomfortable.
As for preferential treatment with other carriers, there is a three fold benefit that I can see for both QF and DJ. They get experienced endorsed crews for minimal investment, they get to pick what they consider to be the better of the operators out of the AN system so that if MarkII does get going, they dont have the crews to do it, making rebuilding very expensive, and they get positive press, allowing them to stand up and say "We are the good guys, look what we did to help out!" Win, Win Win.
As for preferential treatment with other carriers, there is a three fold benefit that I can see for both QF and DJ. They get experienced endorsed crews for minimal investment, they get to pick what they consider to be the better of the operators out of the AN system so that if MarkII does get going, they dont have the crews to do it, making rebuilding very expensive, and they get positive press, allowing them to stand up and say "We are the good guys, look what we did to help out!" Win, Win Win.
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To the King & Casper,
why are you guys so angry about high paying airline jobs?Why are you guys so angry at highly experienced & qualified AN pilots?There are reasons,just add a few more posts so I can ascertain where all of these insecurities come from.
why are you guys so angry about high paying airline jobs?Why are you guys so angry at highly experienced & qualified AN pilots?There are reasons,just add a few more posts so I can ascertain where all of these insecurities come from.
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MR KING - I likewise have read nowhere about preferential treatment for AN drivers.
Whilst we're at it what differentiates the AN drivers compared to the salaries of their QF counterparts?
There's stuff all in it.
Now - a 747-400 Second Officer making upwards of $120,000 per year Mr King - now thats what I call overpaid!
Mr King - you get what you pay for and after some 35 years of airline flying I can tell you that if somebody is reportedly overpaid I ask you - compared to what?
Just compare salaries around the world of pilots flying similar types and I assure you pilots in Oz are not overpaid at all.
Certainly a 737 pilot with Polynesian airlines or Air Nauru get paid alot less than QF/AN but at the same time check out what Southwest is paying their 737 pilots!
Mr King - pilots are like chalk and cheese but when they are put into a check and training environment where their livelihood and passenger safety depends on the pilot's proficiency a number of times per year and an airline has the reputation of being number 2 in the world in terms of safety (AN) then I would never begrudge a pilots salary.
Would you Mr King go to an underpaid doctor for surgery I wonder or would you prefer the overpaid (and more likely more experienced) counterpart?
I guessed as much.
Sounds like sour grapes to me lad.
Whilst we're at it what differentiates the AN drivers compared to the salaries of their QF counterparts?
There's stuff all in it.
Now - a 747-400 Second Officer making upwards of $120,000 per year Mr King - now thats what I call overpaid!
Mr King - you get what you pay for and after some 35 years of airline flying I can tell you that if somebody is reportedly overpaid I ask you - compared to what?
Just compare salaries around the world of pilots flying similar types and I assure you pilots in Oz are not overpaid at all.
Certainly a 737 pilot with Polynesian airlines or Air Nauru get paid alot less than QF/AN but at the same time check out what Southwest is paying their 737 pilots!
Mr King - pilots are like chalk and cheese but when they are put into a check and training environment where their livelihood and passenger safety depends on the pilot's proficiency a number of times per year and an airline has the reputation of being number 2 in the world in terms of safety (AN) then I would never begrudge a pilots salary.
Would you Mr King go to an underpaid doctor for surgery I wonder or would you prefer the overpaid (and more likely more experienced) counterpart?
I guessed as much.
Sounds like sour grapes to me lad.
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1013, Dunno if you should be making reference to a super successfull operation like Southwest and relating it to the AN discussion. Southwest are the benchmark of profitability and success in domestic operations. Hardly a comparison me thinks.
Onya
Onya
1013, the figure you mention for -400 second officers is a lot...until you consider that most of those pilots had the experience and licences to be captains when they joined. It is also noteworthy that most other longhaul operators utilise up to two captains and two F/Os for the same sectors as those where QF uses 1x captain, 1x F/O(cruise captain) and 2 S/Os. It is merely QF policy to recruit all pilots to the position of S/O, assigning them to type on joining day. S/O pay is a defined as a factor of captain's pay for the given type.
So...it's a major saving in terms of pilot costs, enabled by the fact that many are prepared to accept less money and slower promotion in order to live in and work from Oz in a company like Qantas. Just the facts.
So...it's a major saving in terms of pilot costs, enabled by the fact that many are prepared to accept less money and slower promotion in order to live in and work from Oz in a company like Qantas. Just the facts.
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Just an observation:two types of pilots onPPrune. 1)those who are trying to protect their conditions they signed the dotted line for.
2)those who through envy,insecurity or whatever incomprehensible trait,continuously attempt to erode better conditions.
2)those who through envy,insecurity or whatever incomprehensible trait,continuously attempt to erode better conditions.
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Grrange Gussler,
Are yooo so fricken getrunken on you vine, zat yooo are unable to recall a vorldvide safety rrrreport zat showed Ansett to be ze second zafest airline in ze vorld (behind ze Canucks). Yooo pherflicker dumbkopf!!!
Don't be abuzing ozers unless you know yooo are abzolootly corrrect!
Arschloch.
Are yooo so fricken getrunken on you vine, zat yooo are unable to recall a vorldvide safety rrrreport zat showed Ansett to be ze second zafest airline in ze vorld (behind ze Canucks). Yooo pherflicker dumbkopf!!!
Don't be abuzing ozers unless you know yooo are abzolootly corrrect!
Arschloch.
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Dear (wan)King , I am yet to receive any government assistance other than social security. Maybe when this is all over AN pilots that do not get their old job back will get other jobs ahead of you due to superior qualifications and experience. I dont think VirginB will listen to anything Anderson has to say. Do you?
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Regardless of the circumstance, pilots and anyone else losing their jobs is bad news - a situation I hope does not affect too many more in this economic cycle(but unfortunately it looks as if it will).
However, despite the coming of a Federal election the assistance given to one set of airline employees should be consistent with that given to those who suffered unexpected unemployment at some earlier point.
Whether it was Compass One or Two, or Impulse, or the numerous small outfits that have gone under during these last few years!
In reality the pilots and others who were enjoying the bigger salaries should be in a much better financial circumstance to weather the shock of unemployment. Thus Ansett pilots should be less stressed than a Regional or GA pilot who has lost his income.
If not, then perhaps it is a timely and sobering reminder to us all to reorder our fiscal arrangements and spending in preparation for that unwanted 'rainy day'!
And along the way we should be mindful of the hundreds of Wannabees that are broke and still striving to get a respectable paid flying job of any description.
However, despite the coming of a Federal election the assistance given to one set of airline employees should be consistent with that given to those who suffered unexpected unemployment at some earlier point.
Whether it was Compass One or Two, or Impulse, or the numerous small outfits that have gone under during these last few years!
In reality the pilots and others who were enjoying the bigger salaries should be in a much better financial circumstance to weather the shock of unemployment. Thus Ansett pilots should be less stressed than a Regional or GA pilot who has lost his income.
If not, then perhaps it is a timely and sobering reminder to us all to reorder our fiscal arrangements and spending in preparation for that unwanted 'rainy day'!
And along the way we should be mindful of the hundreds of Wannabees that are broke and still striving to get a respectable paid flying job of any description.
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I know its a hard time for many a fellow pilot out there, however lets try and keep the bitterness and vitriol to a minimum.
I never mentioned that Ansett pilots were OVERPAID, BUT HIGHLY PAID.
If you refer to my original post, I think you will find it was Casper who mentioned the term 'overpaid'.
ABGO, you seem to have understood my post better than most, and it is a shame that one cant post on this forum without the inevitable hecklers, who seem hell bent on personal insult rather than intelligent debate.
I will refrain from lowering myself to the level of these people who cant seem to help themselves when it comes to someone having a different opinion to themselves.
As far as 'delusions of grandeur' go:-
WHO ME??
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!!!!!
I never mentioned that Ansett pilots were OVERPAID, BUT HIGHLY PAID.
If you refer to my original post, I think you will find it was Casper who mentioned the term 'overpaid'.
ABGO, you seem to have understood my post better than most, and it is a shame that one cant post on this forum without the inevitable hecklers, who seem hell bent on personal insult rather than intelligent debate.
I will refrain from lowering myself to the level of these people who cant seem to help themselves when it comes to someone having a different opinion to themselves.
As far as 'delusions of grandeur' go:-
WHO ME??
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!!!!!
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Poor (now recently ‘ex’) AN barrrstards… When I see them prattling on here about how other airlines will ‘obviously’ select them over ‘lesser mortals’, because of their ‘experience’ and ‘excellent safety record’, I’m sadly reminded of another group of Australian pilots who took industrial action twelve years ago thinking that they were not replaceable and that their employers couldn’t do without them.
They were proven wrong because the employers were willing to take… anyone. Anyone who could fill a seat. And who were that ‘anyone’?
The first lot, along the twisting, pot-holed road that for most of them, led to some measure of success, learnt some very bitter lessons, mostly about what a small pond it was that they’d been the big fish in.
I suspect the current lot are going to learn some very similar, equally bitter lessons. But the senior ones among them will lack one extremely important thing the first wave of twelve years had going for them – a network of friends looking out for them, both professionally in finding jobs for them, and domestically, in helping them and their families settle into the sometimes very strange environments they found themselves in.
The senior one among this lot burned those bridges irreparably twelve years ago and by their behaviour in the years since. Some will find no doubt work in the industry, but they’ll remain forever what they’ve been these last twelve years – pariahs. Hopefully, all of the younger ones will also find meaningful work, and along the way, they might hear another, very different slant to the self-serving tales they’ve been fed these last twelve years of the ‘heroes’ who ‘saved’ Australian aviation – for twelve years.
In closing, is anyone else amazed to read the articles in the Australian Press only now giving ‘shock! horror!’ details of the gross errors Peter Abeles made in his ‘running’ of Ansett? Of his buying, without even consulting his operations or commercial managers, any and every aircraft he walked past at each airshow he visited? How this led to huge inefficiencies and excessive training costs – to the point where AN pilots only averaged 20 hours productive flying a month? (Which was propaganda anyway – a statistical sleight of hand – but we won’t go into that here.)
I seem to remember a group of ‘overpaid, lazy, fat-cat, nothing more than glorified bus drivers’ saying all those things very loudly and very clearly twelve years ago to that very same Press Corps – and being roundly ignored.
They were proven wrong because the employers were willing to take… anyone. Anyone who could fill a seat. And who were that ‘anyone’?
The first lot, along the twisting, pot-holed road that for most of them, led to some measure of success, learnt some very bitter lessons, mostly about what a small pond it was that they’d been the big fish in.
I suspect the current lot are going to learn some very similar, equally bitter lessons. But the senior ones among them will lack one extremely important thing the first wave of twelve years had going for them – a network of friends looking out for them, both professionally in finding jobs for them, and domestically, in helping them and their families settle into the sometimes very strange environments they found themselves in.
The senior one among this lot burned those bridges irreparably twelve years ago and by their behaviour in the years since. Some will find no doubt work in the industry, but they’ll remain forever what they’ve been these last twelve years – pariahs. Hopefully, all of the younger ones will also find meaningful work, and along the way, they might hear another, very different slant to the self-serving tales they’ve been fed these last twelve years of the ‘heroes’ who ‘saved’ Australian aviation – for twelve years.
In closing, is anyone else amazed to read the articles in the Australian Press only now giving ‘shock! horror!’ details of the gross errors Peter Abeles made in his ‘running’ of Ansett? Of his buying, without even consulting his operations or commercial managers, any and every aircraft he walked past at each airshow he visited? How this led to huge inefficiencies and excessive training costs – to the point where AN pilots only averaged 20 hours productive flying a month? (Which was propaganda anyway – a statistical sleight of hand – but we won’t go into that here.)
I seem to remember a group of ‘overpaid, lazy, fat-cat, nothing more than glorified bus drivers’ saying all those things very loudly and very clearly twelve years ago to that very same Press Corps – and being roundly ignored.
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Capt Moonlight - I fail to see incorrect figures in my posting.
If you could mention exactly what I posted that was incorrect I may be able to make reference and support my argument.
Moonlight,just for the record the only figures I quoted were the wages of B747-400 Second Officers (upwards to about $120,000) which my nephew proudly tells me of (and good on him!) and also the fact that in a recent world airline safety survey Ansett Australia came in at number 2 - that Sir is a FACT.
Moonlight,if you could tell me why/where my info is second hand and also exactly which quote was incorrect it would be much appreciated.
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: 1013 ]
If you could mention exactly what I posted that was incorrect I may be able to make reference and support my argument.
Moonlight,just for the record the only figures I quoted were the wages of B747-400 Second Officers (upwards to about $120,000) which my nephew proudly tells me of (and good on him!) and also the fact that in a recent world airline safety survey Ansett Australia came in at number 2 - that Sir is a FACT.
Moonlight,if you could tell me why/where my info is second hand and also exactly which quote was incorrect it would be much appreciated.
[ 08 October 2001: Message edited by: 1013 ]
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1013 as I do not like to air your dirty linen in public I have sent you a private message. I hope this sets you straight as you should broaden your blinkered vision and realise you mentioned more than two airlines in your reply