Dodgie Flying
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: QLD, Australia
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dodgie Flying
This pilot bloke once told me. .. ."If your not competant enough to bodgie it up then you had better do it properly". .. .Kinda makes a lot of sense when you think about it.. .. .How many of you do the short cut method of navigation, weight and balance, fuel, approach etc. because you know that if the ***** hits the fan, you have half a dozen ways up your sleeve to save your butt.. .And how many of you would not dare take a short cut because you are too professional, afraid, incompetent, inexperienced etc.. .And I'm not for a minute insinuating that being professional or afraid is a bad thing.. .. .Is the short cut pilot better and more competant, or just more dodgy and less professional.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Confucius say,"There are OLD pilots, and there are BOLD pilots - but there are NO OLD, BOLD pilots". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 48
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes
on
10 Posts
I think it's quite safe to say YOU CAN SHOVE THE SHORTCUT UP THE SHORTCUT! Obviously you should think comercially and save money when it is there to be saved but the regs are there to protect you not the other way round, everything can turn to you know what if your not careful.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AofA, you are a yellow bellied liar!. .. .Of course pilots take shortcuts. Like "IMP6635 track direct Jacobs Well, climb to FL250". . .. .Just for those of you who don't know, many B1900 are fitted with the almighty Garmin 100 Sort of TSOed GPS.. .. .Oh and BTW, this is not a dig at IMP, cause I also know of an incident when Eastern 46 lied about their distance from a port outside radar coverage just to beat a decent hard working SPIFR frieght plane. Don't that spoil your day!. .. .Lets think of another....A company must have the financial stabuility to meet its obligations as specified under the CAA and CAR, ... do we really think that does not apply to Ansett or any of their subsidiaries over the past eight months and prior. No siree. Lets not go near the Corporations Law and insolvency.. .. .And if their are no old bold pilots, then who is the gray haired coote up the front drivin this beast anyways!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Emerald City of Oz
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's a difference between taking shortcuts and "being human" in aviation. Whereas your motor vehicle policy may be more forgiving if you're doing something which is "human" in a car, aviation insurers are well known for being less forgiving. While human error is covered by your insurance, taking shortcuts isn't.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Worldly Wide
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Victor Bravo. .. .I think that you have completely missed the point. The fact is that what the illustrious Mr Cruze has pointed out is very relevant.. .. .Motor Vehicle travel is infinitely more dangerous and less predictable than flying ever could be, and everyone4 takes the shortcuts when driving.. .. .So lets face it, pilots do take shortcuts, but as the Spinnerman pointed out, they generally have a few tricks up their sleeve before they stick their neck out. Bit like a turtle really.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aust.
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And there ain't nuthin' like experience to know when and how far to bend the rules whilst still keeping it safe. . . It comes down to actually knowing the margins involved and, as mentioned above, keeping several outs available.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting.. .. .Flying is dangerous. How often do you get to tool around at 300' agl on a dark stormy night in a car? Never, but we do it all the time in something that has the ability to bite us on the aaarse in the blink of an eye.. .. .How much experience do you need to determine yours and the aircrafts limits and to be able to move the goal posts (which provide a very specific margin of error), to suit your own and your companies needs.. .. .I know of a number of instances where "shortcuts" were taken for the price of the pilots and passengers lives.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nulla
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For every "1" that got bitten in the arse there's 100 that got away with it. It's the decision made at the time and this is usually done on experience or stupidity. If the stupid one gets away with it it's put down to experience and if the experience one comes a cropper then it's put down to stupidity.. .. .Rules are there to follow and they will always be bent. They should never be broken. Its experience that has written them and it's a shame, in some cases, that experience won't update them.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: To your left
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry not a pilot, but as a "bum in the back" with my toolbox putting faith in the competence of the driver up front to get me home safe, I'll just say this:. .. .He who ignores the lessons of history is bound to repeat them, or words to that effect.. .. .So guys, please don't go takin' ya short cuts with this little black duck in the back. I don't mind what you do on ya own and how big a grease mark you make on the landscape to prove you can push the rules..........just don't go doin' it with innocent bystanders like me and Joe Punter who end up collateral damage because of your stupidity.. .. .There aint nothin Pprofessional about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .Gets off soap box and returns to coffee and hot cross bun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Edited for after thought.. . . . <small>[ 17 March 2002, 05:26: Message edited by: Travelling Toolbox ]</small>
Bargearse...tooling around on a dark stormy night at 300'agl !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. .. .You have been watching too much TV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Emerald City of Oz
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slyfox I did NOT miss the point. I was just throwing another factor into the debate - nobody ever seems to take insurance risk into consideration when they're taking a shortcut. . .. .Taking a shortcut when it comes to checking fuel or doing fuel calcs and have an accident - try to get your insurer to pay for that one (and try to get insurance in future). Did they have an "way out" for that one? Nope. Extreme example? Unfortunately it happens all too frequently. . .. .But talk on a mobile phone in your vehicle and have an accident, which again, happens all the time, and it's a different story. Your insurer will pay, and you will have no problem getting insurance in future.. .. .Ok, now I'll put my 2c worth in on the topic in general.. .. .The definition of "acceptable shortcut" is a personal thing which relies on judgement based on experience and situation. But judgement based on experience can be notoriously flawed. For example, a certain proportion of aviation accidents happen each year just for the simple reason that a checklist wasn't followed! Now there's a simple shortcut which it's only human to take, but who would think that skimping on a checklist is REALLY a problem? . .. .Spinnerhead's mate is correct - if you take a shortcut you'd better be 100% sure about what you are doing. But not only that, but 100% sure that you can cope with the penalties if the sh!t hits the fan, because there is no such thing as a "guaranteed out". And if you're not sure 100% on BOTH counts, then don't do it.. . . . <small>[ 17 March 2002, 10:10: Message edited by: VictorBravo ]</small>
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The back of the hangar
Posts: 147
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Travellingtoolbox hss a very valid point. We as pilots make value decisions about our own ability and that of our fellow pilots, base on our own set of values. Are we considering the values of those sitting behind us?
I would just like to point out a reality that most of us are probably already aware of.... .. .When we, as pilots or engineers for that matter, make a conscious decision to break the rules AND just as importantly, when we neglegt to maintain the appropriate and legal standards of safety through lack of training, knowledge, practice, etc. One consequence emerges.. .. .The PROBABILITY of incident, accident and/or death or serious injury simply increases.. .. .What is insidious about this is that the act of bending/breaking the rules, once succesfully completed, simply acts to reinforce the behavior. . .. ."I do it all the time, it's never been a problem yet" syndrome. .. .Only a fool would insist that experience doesn't highlight the potential pitfalls of such indiscretions, but experience alone as a pilot does not make us experienced rule makers. . .. .Drawing a line in the sand of our own, especialy when done as a solo operator, without the benefits of research, statistics and the lack of commercial pressures can only be considered gambling at best.. .. .I believe that we do not have the right to decide when to increase the risk of death on our passengers, minimal as that increase may seem. Especialy when the only benefit to us is to save us or our operator a minute here or there, or 0.1 from the M/R. An EXPERIENCED operator should already have many other ways to do this within the rules.. .. .And just for the record I couldn't give a stuff about the insurance, if I bend an airframe and there is any chance that it will be found out that I also bent the rules the PROBABILITY is that my career will be over.. .. .I am no saint but that's my philosophy.....
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spinnerhead, I note that you asked how many people take shortcuts, amongst others, weight and balance. I know of one.. .. .Try ATSB report B/926/1005 (19 June 1992 - and there were a few other "shortcuts" taken on that one). . .. .It was fatal.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 10:39: Message edited by: Foyl ]</small>
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Not the beach
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:. .“too professional, afraid, incompetent, inexperienced etc”. .. .Are these the qualifications for not being Dodgy???. .. .My Opinion:. .If, under normal operational activity- you work for an organization that condones “Dodgy Flying”, or if you work for an organization that doesn’t, and you still carry out “Dodgy Flying” – You are a “Risk Taker”- for what gain? Profit……..Expedience……Perceived Efficiency……….Lazy???. .. .For whatever reason you convince yourself that this activity is satisfactory, you are doing something that is quite possibly irresponsible (and potentially dangerous).. .. .If I pay for you to take me somewhere, my expectation as a customer is that you will do the correct thing.. .. .I hope that either my family, or I, are not on board when there is a pilot making decisions in a “Dodgy or Shortcut” manner.. .. .“Dodgy” taking “Shortcuts’, there are plenty of Accident reports about this kind of behaviour, and the results of it.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: sydney,NSW
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with you Willie Nelson,. .The reasons rules are there is so it is not entirely up to the pilot on what desicion to make in certain circumstances.. .If you bend or break the rules of aviation then you are far from a proffesional pilot, what right do you have to put the lives of other people in your hands????Its twits like (cruze power) that keep thinking that the rules are opened for enterpritation ie. comparing aviation to driving a car!!!!. .There are reasons for rules and Checklists : TO REDUCE HUMAN ERROR ! which is the cause of 90% of air accidents.
