Air New Zealand to follow Ansett
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KYBO
Tut, Tut, who's being aggressive now?
Look, anyone who is suddenly tipped out of a job like that is fully deserving of sympathy, mine included, and initially I fully felt it for Ansett staff but having observed the reaction in Pprune and the Australian media, to which I have regular access, my sympathy was short lived.
I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't feel anger, we all should and for my part do, but not at you the poor Ansett Joe who turned up for work on a regular basis everyday the same way I do over here.
Misguided and mis-directed anger solves nothing and only diminishes any sympathy and respect people, especially the people towards whom the anger is misdirected, may have towards those in the awful predicament you are in and we may shortly be in.
In the business world there is no room for sentimentality. We in NZ and Air NZ 10+ years ago have been there courtesy of the Employment Contract Act.
From what I see, and according to Dick Smith on NZ radio this morning he also sees, Australia as a whole also has to go through that process and it may be that Ansett is the first victim of that process. That is why I am hugely suspicious, as I said in a previous post, of the utterances of Howard and Anderson.
I don't care if you have found my posts unpleasant to read, they weren't designed to be nursery rhymes. There were designed to jolt you and those like you out of attacking the soft target of NZ in general and Air NZ in particular and get you start looking at the real reason Ansett collapsed and Air NZ is on the brink of collapse. Stop shooting at the messenger and try reading and understanding the message. You may then be better able to handle the emotions I am sure you are justifiably feeling.
Either way; abusing counter staff and creating the kind of poster that not even Woomera can stomach and in his wisdom has removed, is hardly likely to rouse much sympathy in the breast of the Arch-Angel Gabriel, let alone a hard-hearted b@st@rd like me!
Best of luck for the future.
Tut, Tut, who's being aggressive now?
Look, anyone who is suddenly tipped out of a job like that is fully deserving of sympathy, mine included, and initially I fully felt it for Ansett staff but having observed the reaction in Pprune and the Australian media, to which I have regular access, my sympathy was short lived.
I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't feel anger, we all should and for my part do, but not at you the poor Ansett Joe who turned up for work on a regular basis everyday the same way I do over here.
Misguided and mis-directed anger solves nothing and only diminishes any sympathy and respect people, especially the people towards whom the anger is misdirected, may have towards those in the awful predicament you are in and we may shortly be in.
In the business world there is no room for sentimentality. We in NZ and Air NZ 10+ years ago have been there courtesy of the Employment Contract Act.
From what I see, and according to Dick Smith on NZ radio this morning he also sees, Australia as a whole also has to go through that process and it may be that Ansett is the first victim of that process. That is why I am hugely suspicious, as I said in a previous post, of the utterances of Howard and Anderson.
I don't care if you have found my posts unpleasant to read, they weren't designed to be nursery rhymes. There were designed to jolt you and those like you out of attacking the soft target of NZ in general and Air NZ in particular and get you start looking at the real reason Ansett collapsed and Air NZ is on the brink of collapse. Stop shooting at the messenger and try reading and understanding the message. You may then be better able to handle the emotions I am sure you are justifiably feeling.
Either way; abusing counter staff and creating the kind of poster that not even Woomera can stomach and in his wisdom has removed, is hardly likely to rouse much sympathy in the breast of the Arch-Angel Gabriel, let alone a hard-hearted b@st@rd like me!
Best of luck for the future.
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From one hard hearted baßtard to another I suspect by the force of your posts that in the inevitable retrenchment or cost cut that ANZ will have to go through that you fear that you may have to be faced with a similar predicament to those lke KYBO. If this happens I suggest that you shouldn't bother posting your frustrations and woes in this forum and that you have also lowered the credibility of any other ANZ employee who may have to seek employment across the other side of the Tasman or anywhere in the world for that matter. Remember our country is a couple of tiny wee (yes beautiful) barely populated islands in the south pacific that have no natural rescoursces and a weakening economy. Delusions of grandeur and a hard embarrasing lesson learned in this case have not helped the situation at all on a global downturn that is possibly facing a fairly large and expensive war . People in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.
EGNT "Why Aye Man"
EGNT "Why Aye Man"
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Still lots of kiwi bashing going on here, but I haven't noticed any Aussies mentioning OneTel, HIH, Qintex, Alan Bond, Mr Elliot, etc. etc. Lot of kiwis lost their shirts on these classic examples of Aussie corporate governance. Or if you want to take it a step further "da big guy" or the 4 Aussie Directors on the Board of AirNZ. Plenty of kiwi pilots lost their jobs when Qantas NZ collapsed. Now Qantas pilots fly NZ domestic routes while NZ pilots mow the lawns.
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
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Well said Skol, especially the last bit.
D_P, I don't know what you're reading into my posts and why you're attacking me instead of the people who created the poster which Woomera pulled and the like, or didn't you get to it in time? All I've been trying to do is put an alternative to the xenophobic, self-serving cr@p being promulgated here in PPRuNe and the Oz media. Please be specific about what I've said you find so objectionable and perhaps I can explain it.
In the meantime; keep chasing those canny lasses and stay off the NBA!
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Red under the Bed ]
D_P, I don't know what you're reading into my posts and why you're attacking me instead of the people who created the poster which Woomera pulled and the like, or didn't you get to it in time? All I've been trying to do is put an alternative to the xenophobic, self-serving cr@p being promulgated here in PPRuNe and the Oz media. Please be specific about what I've said you find so objectionable and perhaps I can explain it.
In the meantime; keep chasing those canny lasses and stay off the NBA!
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Red under the Bed ]
Evertonian
I wonder if there would've been as much "kiwi" bashing if Helen Clarke hadn't said that it was Australias problem, the 16000 out of work that is. Terminology like cutting Ansett loose also raised the ire of Australians. Even on the footy show in MEL, Vince Sorrenti cracked a joke about ANZ & the audience booed! Why would they? Perhaps the Oz media was one sided, or perhaps ordinary people took exception to the NZ PM's comments when considered with the board of ANZ's.
BTW, did anyone see the report on Nauru last night? Helen Clarkes arrival in Nauru was the funniest thing on TV for weeks!!!
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Buster Hyman ]
BTW, did anyone see the report on Nauru last night? Helen Clarkes arrival in Nauru was the funniest thing on TV for weeks!!!
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Buster Hyman ]
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Buster
Helen Clark is the least of your problems. I've just been reading in this mornings paper about another fine example of Aussie corporate governance, namely Pasminco. Has George Bush thought of sending a delegation of Aussie businessmen to Afghanistan to run the infrastructure and bring the country to economic and financial ruin?
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
Helen Clark is the least of your problems. I've just been reading in this mornings paper about another fine example of Aussie corporate governance, namely Pasminco. Has George Bush thought of sending a delegation of Aussie businessmen to Afghanistan to run the infrastructure and bring the country to economic and financial ruin?
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
[ 20 September 2001: Message edited by: Skol ]
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Aussie businessmen? Oh, I forgot it was the aussies alone and nobody else who caused this mess (if you believe RUTB's posts).
Grow up d'heads. Slanging off isn't going to make the current climate much better. The only consolation will be when the entitlements are found for all the workers unemployed (at the very least, hopefully they get their jobs back), and for that to happen they are going to have to unravel the whole big mess and then the real facts will become apparent.
Grow up d'heads. Slanging off isn't going to make the current climate much better. The only consolation will be when the entitlements are found for all the workers unemployed (at the very least, hopefully they get their jobs back), and for that to happen they are going to have to unravel the whole big mess and then the real facts will become apparent.
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I have just seen the news on TV. Scenes of madmen in a frenzy, burning an effigy of George W. Reminded me of the Union reaction in MEL. Some justification but not very well thought out.
There was a programme on TV about the whole issue. It made some very good points and got very close to the truth. The people to blame, if you insist, are the board of directors and primarily SIA. They are playing games. You are hopelessly misguided if you blame all Kiwis for this. Hopefully soon we shall see some intelligence in the debate.
There was a programme on TV about the whole issue. It made some very good points and got very close to the truth. The people to blame, if you insist, are the board of directors and primarily SIA. They are playing games. You are hopelessly misguided if you blame all Kiwis for this. Hopefully soon we shall see some intelligence in the debate.
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Rabish Binny, please read all my posts before ascribing simplistic summaries to them. They are a response to the mindless sniping and attacks coming from Australia and Ansett staff directed at NZ and Air NZ staff. I have NEVER claimed that no fault lies on this side of the deetch, merely pointed out that the Ozzie involvement in this sorry mess is not beyond reproach. I see the second paragraph of your post actually reinforces what I've been pointing out, let the facts emerge before making your rush to judgment.
The Australian government was appraised of the problems at Ansett way back in May and could well have washed its hands of the airline and its staff then. At least Pontius Pilate had the good grace to keep his mouth shut during the crucifixion, which is more than we can say for Anderson and his boss.
Demonising Gary Twomey is irrational, he was always doomed to failure; The New Zealand Herald reports this morning that the administrator took just 12 hours to work out that only a 'minor miracle' kept Ansett alive for the past year or so, about as long as Air NZ has been the 100% owner and is indicative of the state of the airline up to then. You may have noted from my previous posts, however, that Selwyn Cushing had better be careful which bus queue, or increasingly likely, dole queue, he joins.
It is also now emerging, as Baldingeaglepoints out, that SIA's role in this sorry mess may not stand close scrutiny and its directors on Air NZ's board may not have been acting in the best interests of the Koru.
From what I've read recently about cost structures at Ansett and Qantas; whither Ansett and increasingly likey Air NZ, also Qantas - you read it here first!
Rest assured, if my job does go down the flusher I will not be directing my ire at people so remote from blame as to be almost victims themselves, as has occurred in the last week in this forum and on Australian streets. I see even NZ Trade Unionists offering their support got booed yesterday, I wondered why they even bothered!
P.S: Events of the last week have demonstrated beyond dispute how thin the veneer of civilization is in the West Island.
The Australian government was appraised of the problems at Ansett way back in May and could well have washed its hands of the airline and its staff then. At least Pontius Pilate had the good grace to keep his mouth shut during the crucifixion, which is more than we can say for Anderson and his boss.
Demonising Gary Twomey is irrational, he was always doomed to failure; The New Zealand Herald reports this morning that the administrator took just 12 hours to work out that only a 'minor miracle' kept Ansett alive for the past year or so, about as long as Air NZ has been the 100% owner and is indicative of the state of the airline up to then. You may have noted from my previous posts, however, that Selwyn Cushing had better be careful which bus queue, or increasingly likely, dole queue, he joins.
It is also now emerging, as Baldingeaglepoints out, that SIA's role in this sorry mess may not stand close scrutiny and its directors on Air NZ's board may not have been acting in the best interests of the Koru.
From what I've read recently about cost structures at Ansett and Qantas; whither Ansett and increasingly likey Air NZ, also Qantas - you read it here first!
Rest assured, if my job does go down the flusher I will not be directing my ire at people so remote from blame as to be almost victims themselves, as has occurred in the last week in this forum and on Australian streets. I see even NZ Trade Unionists offering their support got booed yesterday, I wondered why they even bothered!
P.S: Events of the last week have demonstrated beyond dispute how thin the veneer of civilization is in the West Island.
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AN employees must share some of the blame for the events of late.
How many stories have i heard of over paid, under worked inefficient and unproductive workers.
Flight attendants have been renowned for taking sickies regularly.
The SYS - DPS service on saturday night was regularly canned as a result of FA sickness.
How many baggage chuckers actually gave a toss about getting aircraft turned around on time. none.
Regulation made it easy for AN to survive but VB came along and changed everything.
Unions in Oz have gone way too far - in aviation and many other fields. Great pay and conditions are meaningless now at AN.
How many stories have i heard of over paid, under worked inefficient and unproductive workers.
Flight attendants have been renowned for taking sickies regularly.
The SYS - DPS service on saturday night was regularly canned as a result of FA sickness.
How many baggage chuckers actually gave a toss about getting aircraft turned around on time. none.
Regulation made it easy for AN to survive but VB came along and changed everything.
Unions in Oz have gone way too far - in aviation and many other fields. Great pay and conditions are meaningless now at AN.
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Why didn't the Aussie government just let Air NZ operate across the ditch under Open Skies as it promised when it signed the agreement? Air NZ would probably still be over there now with a half dozen 737's running around and a tiny market share. But after signing the Oz government became concerned about the ability of Ansett and Qantas to compete and did a complete 180. (You sign something and then you say "nah I changed my mind?????????") When Air NZ set out to enter the Oz market it had no intention of ever buying anyone. Such is hindsight, I wish we were blessed.
And good luck to everyone job hunting.
And good luck to everyone job hunting.
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I have no comfort in watching the vitriol flowing in this debacle. As has been said so many times, nothing was heard when QANTAS NZ turned tango uniform.
I just wonder what the blow torch in this forum would have been like if Air NZ had not bothered to try and keep Ansett going but had dropped it into receivership the day after they had bought it. After all, when one finds out just how much the "dollar per man hour" was in Ansett I find it mind boggling that it hadn't gone under ages ago. Says something for the conditions the Ozzie govt must have bound Air NZ to when they took 100%.
Just my tuppence worth.
I just wonder what the blow torch in this forum would have been like if Air NZ had not bothered to try and keep Ansett going but had dropped it into receivership the day after they had bought it. After all, when one finds out just how much the "dollar per man hour" was in Ansett I find it mind boggling that it hadn't gone under ages ago. Says something for the conditions the Ozzie govt must have bound Air NZ to when they took 100%.
Just my tuppence worth.
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Thought I'd re-energize this thread, if only for a bit of gloating!
I've watched, but not contributed to, newer threads on the AN/ANZ debacle - Anderson described as The Minister for Qantas, I love it!! I foreshadowed that a couple of weeks ago, just review my posts.
However, I do see a bit of navel gazing going on in West Island, I truly believe that is healthy and will lead, eventually, to all those responsible - on BOTH sides of the Tasman - being called to account, all to the good.
The aftermath has already had an effect.
Decimation of the culprits on the Air NZ Board, The NZ gov shelling out big bucks to keep the national carrier airborne (instead of [sly dig here] AN employees in clover), and, on tonight's news, Air NZ pulling off the SYD-LAX-SYD route, which brings a smile.
THAT was the only route our pre-'92 contract, so I'm told, didn't fit. That small fact lead to the early -90s lease of our first B747-400 to CX which in turn lead to the split of the Air NZ pilots etc etc.
Can't help smiling about that.
I've watched, but not contributed to, newer threads on the AN/ANZ debacle - Anderson described as The Minister for Qantas, I love it!! I foreshadowed that a couple of weeks ago, just review my posts.
However, I do see a bit of navel gazing going on in West Island, I truly believe that is healthy and will lead, eventually, to all those responsible - on BOTH sides of the Tasman - being called to account, all to the good.
The aftermath has already had an effect.
Decimation of the culprits on the Air NZ Board, The NZ gov shelling out big bucks to keep the national carrier airborne (instead of [sly dig here] AN employees in clover), and, on tonight's news, Air NZ pulling off the SYD-LAX-SYD route, which brings a smile.
THAT was the only route our pre-'92 contract, so I'm told, didn't fit. That small fact lead to the early -90s lease of our first B747-400 to CX which in turn lead to the split of the Air NZ pilots etc etc.
Can't help smiling about that.
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I don't know about pulling off, most kiwis i know spend most of their time jacking off. No aussie in their right mind would get on an AirNZ flight if there is any other alternative. Don't be too surprised if your trans Tasman flights are scaled back dramaticaly as well. Why don't you try to grow your own market over there instead of riding on our backs? Don't you people have any pride?
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Boeing Belly,
Over many years I have been aware of the sponging of the kiwis and it is pleasing to note, at last, the general populace of Australia have been awakened to that fact.
Just one example is the imbalance of welfare payments imposed on Australia of $200 million annually and that is ONLY ONE aspect of it.
Actions speak louder than words and we have the solution in our hands. As you say don't fly AirNZ, don't buy their products and press our politicians to correct the welfare and Closer Economic relations rorts.
Let them shoulder their own burdens and set them adrift.
And I nearly forgot. Let us apply the same discriminatory employment policies as AirNZ does against Australian pilots. Don't employ NZ pilots in Australia.
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
Over many years I have been aware of the sponging of the kiwis and it is pleasing to note, at last, the general populace of Australia have been awakened to that fact.
Just one example is the imbalance of welfare payments imposed on Australia of $200 million annually and that is ONLY ONE aspect of it.
Actions speak louder than words and we have the solution in our hands. As you say don't fly AirNZ, don't buy their products and press our politicians to correct the welfare and Closer Economic relations rorts.
Let them shoulder their own burdens and set them adrift.
And I nearly forgot. Let us apply the same discriminatory employment policies as AirNZ does against Australian pilots. Don't employ NZ pilots in Australia.
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]
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Pretty sad state of affairs really.ANZ deserves a bit of flack over what happend and they should have cut a deal with SQ but it has all gone overboard.I wonder who will be blamed as QF runs into trouble and I believe as ANmk 11 comes out of the rubble it is going to pose a dreadfull threat to them.Sometimes a company can appear too successful and the politics will change the tide and facilitation of events.And we are at that point.If VB were to take up the running on all trunk routes it would be with ahuge amount of AN staff and so existing infrastucture would be overrun by outsiders as it were and this would cause problems in check and training systems all down the line.ANmk11 I think will survive with all trunk routes,terminals and a large amount of infrastucture intact that will allow such growth as is seen as profitable but with huge redundancies at least initially.Lets lay off the Kiwis,they were unsuspecting casualties themselves albeit very silly not to cut the deal.
Evertonian
Geez, 9 pages! I'm not going to read it all, but I think all Australians should be concerned about the security of ANZ jobs. Australia couldn't afford that many more on the dole!