Air New Zealand to follow Ansett
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What if SQs "legendary" cash reserves are now just that.
It would be convenient for them to cry foul on this, as not all of their "legendary" strategic purchases in other areas have worked all that well, and Choongs "mates" want his head for the $500,000,000 he ripped up in this fiasco.
I'm not sure all of it can be laid at the feet of AirNZ.
In any event they wound up with each other, so I guess there is some justice in this world.
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
It would be convenient for them to cry foul on this, as not all of their "legendary" strategic purchases in other areas have worked all that well, and Choongs "mates" want his head for the $500,000,000 he ripped up in this fiasco.
I'm not sure all of it can be laid at the feet of AirNZ.
In any event they wound up with each other, so I guess there is some justice in this world.
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
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Good to see you Ozzies reverting to type when the going gets tough! Stop listening to baseles rumours and self serving pols looking towards an upcoming election and diverting blame from themselves, Anderson & Howard foremost. The only engines you can get on an Air NZ B747 are the four that make the noise.
Try looking in the mirror for once. Ansett has been a('n Australian, please note)basket case for over 12 years.
Where were all you bleaters when Ansett(Oz) was bleeding Ansett NZ dry by foisting useless aircraft on them at rapacious lease rates? Where were you when Australians, having been bailed out by well-meaning Kiwi businessmen (another ailing Oz airline on NZ's doorstep), then refused to assist, in the shape of Qantas, to keep the airline going and save Kiwi jobs with Australian cash? Right now Australian pilots are flying NZ domestic routes on Oz licences in Oz registered jets. Should we take the same 'mature' attitude to them as you lot appear eager to do to us.
If you want someone to direct your anger at, try the inept Ansett mangement and don't be so emotional.
Try looking in the mirror for once. Ansett has been a('n Australian, please note)basket case for over 12 years.
Where were all you bleaters when Ansett(Oz) was bleeding Ansett NZ dry by foisting useless aircraft on them at rapacious lease rates? Where were you when Australians, having been bailed out by well-meaning Kiwi businessmen (another ailing Oz airline on NZ's doorstep), then refused to assist, in the shape of Qantas, to keep the airline going and save Kiwi jobs with Australian cash? Right now Australian pilots are flying NZ domestic routes on Oz licences in Oz registered jets. Should we take the same 'mature' attitude to them as you lot appear eager to do to us.
If you want someone to direct your anger at, try the inept Ansett mangement and don't be so emotional.
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Ansetts problems, are long and winded. The diciding factor is that Air New Zealand tried to takeover a company that had more up to date systems, more intelligent staff, and then paid for them to leave, with people remaining that had little experience. Look back at the financial press. ANZ were always going to fail, and they should be expected to pay the entitlements that they inherited, knowingly, to their workers
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Newmans was a backwater airline in the first place Red. When AN bought it out and established themselves in the market under their own name, with 737/146 aircraft they had, it ran at a loss for twelve years, which probably worked well for the books in Oz, but they always had an uphill battle with NZ matching every ploy they tried, and it never hurt anyone, there or here.
It wasn't until TNT sold their half in AN to Air New Zealand that the governments agreed that Rupert should take sole ownership of AN-NZ for competative reasons.
Thats when it went from bad to worse to what it is today, which brings us all back to square one... Air New Zealand.
If (IF!?) they hadn't got involved, who knows what it would all be like today?
So start to ask the NZ board why your NZ share prices (A or B) are heading south with every minute they trade, and why each and every kiwi tax payer has to help pay out Sir Selwyn (The richest kiwi on earth), until the inevitable happens and they end up in a much worse fate than AN!
It wasn't until TNT sold their half in AN to Air New Zealand that the governments agreed that Rupert should take sole ownership of AN-NZ for competative reasons.
Thats when it went from bad to worse to what it is today, which brings us all back to square one... Air New Zealand.
If (IF!?) they hadn't got involved, who knows what it would all be like today?
So start to ask the NZ board why your NZ share prices (A or B) are heading south with every minute they trade, and why each and every kiwi tax payer has to help pay out Sir Selwyn (The richest kiwi on earth), until the inevitable happens and they end up in a much worse fate than AN!
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Oh come on, next it'll be "My dad's bigger than your dad!" Get real.
No-one is suggesting Air NZ management is better or worse than Ansett's, I've been one of its victims for years.
Fact: AWS were fleecing the New Zealand carrier long before Air NZ became the reluctant owner of the Fat Man's ego trip.
Fact: The Xmas grounding occurred because an Ansett engineering manager couldn't read a Boeing SB.
Fact: The fault which lead to the Easter grounding was discovered by Air NZ maintenance in the Auckland hangar. (How come Ansett missed/ignored it?)
Fact: The Ansett engineering manpower bill for next year needed to about DOUBLE to accommodate all the required maintenance deferred by Ansett management.
Quote (from a senior ANSETT manager): "Our acquistion programme consisted of PA going to an airshow, filling himself full of chardonnay and coming back with a couple of jets."
Read today's (Friday) business section of the NZ Herald.
If Ansett's systems were so superior to Air NZ's how come Twomey, who has no axe to grind he's only been in the job 6 months, can say "Ansett has significant problems with its financial systems, some accounts had not been reconciled for years, the airline faced a huge backlog in deep aircraft maintenance (see above) and some aircraft had been run out to the maximum hours, etc, etc."?
From my observation much of the senior management in the combined group is/was Oz anyway.
One fact is sure; Australia has been locked into regressive labour practices by strong unions. Despite the sympathy I feel, when a firm collapses the workers residual rights collapse with it, despite what your PM is saying on TV to his prospective electors. Even post-'89, Ansett pilots have been earning heaps more at similar productivity rates (B737 drivers over double)to Air NZ pilots.
Stop wallowing in the mire of name calling and being wound up by over emotive check-in clerks and two-faced politicians and get on with the job of either resurrecting the airline or finding another job, otherwise we will park a tug behind one of the many QF jets which grace our airports and try and get the lost entitlements of Ansett/Qantas NZ staff back.
At bottom Air NZ bit off as much as it could chew, got surprised by a fuel price hike and the true state of a 'great' airline's maintenance woes and failed in a valiant attempt to make it work. Don't take it out on me and threaten my job, I'm a unit of labour just like you.
No-one is suggesting Air NZ management is better or worse than Ansett's, I've been one of its victims for years.
Fact: AWS were fleecing the New Zealand carrier long before Air NZ became the reluctant owner of the Fat Man's ego trip.
Fact: The Xmas grounding occurred because an Ansett engineering manager couldn't read a Boeing SB.
Fact: The fault which lead to the Easter grounding was discovered by Air NZ maintenance in the Auckland hangar. (How come Ansett missed/ignored it?)
Fact: The Ansett engineering manpower bill for next year needed to about DOUBLE to accommodate all the required maintenance deferred by Ansett management.
Quote (from a senior ANSETT manager): "Our acquistion programme consisted of PA going to an airshow, filling himself full of chardonnay and coming back with a couple of jets."
Read today's (Friday) business section of the NZ Herald.
If Ansett's systems were so superior to Air NZ's how come Twomey, who has no axe to grind he's only been in the job 6 months, can say "Ansett has significant problems with its financial systems, some accounts had not been reconciled for years, the airline faced a huge backlog in deep aircraft maintenance (see above) and some aircraft had been run out to the maximum hours, etc, etc."?
From my observation much of the senior management in the combined group is/was Oz anyway.
One fact is sure; Australia has been locked into regressive labour practices by strong unions. Despite the sympathy I feel, when a firm collapses the workers residual rights collapse with it, despite what your PM is saying on TV to his prospective electors. Even post-'89, Ansett pilots have been earning heaps more at similar productivity rates (B737 drivers over double)to Air NZ pilots.
Stop wallowing in the mire of name calling and being wound up by over emotive check-in clerks and two-faced politicians and get on with the job of either resurrecting the airline or finding another job, otherwise we will park a tug behind one of the many QF jets which grace our airports and try and get the lost entitlements of Ansett/Qantas NZ staff back.
At bottom Air NZ bit off as much as it could chew, got surprised by a fuel price hike and the true state of a 'great' airline's maintenance woes and failed in a valiant attempt to make it work. Don't take it out on me and threaten my job, I'm a unit of labour just like you.
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Ahh RUTB (isn't that what a deer does)....Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, didn't ANZ buy 50% of AN as far back as '96 and then followed up with a further 50% last year.....Now I'm no mathematician, but that's 5 years of 50% ownership of a company.....If things were (obviously) as bad as you say, as far as mismanagement goes in particular, wouldn't you think that 5 years would be sufficient to do something positive about it, let alone purchase a further 50% after 4 years 
How the **** can anyone hold the Australian Government responsible for what an NZ/SQ company does.....I agree with you gaunty.....Having lived and worked throughout Asia for almost 30 years, and particularly dealing with Singapore, I believe that perhaps the answer lies not within this part of the world, but perhaps a little further north of here.
However, we will never know, or will we :o
How the **** can anyone hold the Australian Government responsible for what an NZ/SQ company does.....I agree with you gaunty.....Having lived and worked throughout Asia for almost 30 years, and particularly dealing with Singapore, I believe that perhaps the answer lies not within this part of the world, but perhaps a little further north of here.
However, we will never know, or will we :o
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It has been said before, and I'll reiterate it again for the benefit of those that choose to use strong and emotive language that is devoid of any factual based argument.
Ansett was a private company.
Why should either government fund a recovery package for Ansett Australia, Qantas NZ or any other private company that it holds no interest in as a shareholder? To protect jobs perhaps? What about other private companies that are liquidated? Is an individual’s job more important if he/she works for a larger company rather than a smaller company? I suspect the individual doesn't think so.
As for ANZ moving equipment owned by the ANZ group from one maintenance base to another, sounds like good sense to me. After all they will want control of their own assets for when they need to sell them to pay for their liabilities. Undoubtedly ANZ management is inept, not for choosing to shut down Ansett but for buying it in the first place. Another angle is that Ansett employees could consider themselves fortunate that they were employed for as long as they were. The ANZ financial results show just where the money did go, all 1.5 million of it a day.
The vitriolic directed to New Zealand individuals is unnecessary and pathetic. The average Australian is a decent and honorable individual, so perhaps the individuals that I refer to are not of the same character.
Ansett was a private company.
Why should either government fund a recovery package for Ansett Australia, Qantas NZ or any other private company that it holds no interest in as a shareholder? To protect jobs perhaps? What about other private companies that are liquidated? Is an individual’s job more important if he/she works for a larger company rather than a smaller company? I suspect the individual doesn't think so.
As for ANZ moving equipment owned by the ANZ group from one maintenance base to another, sounds like good sense to me. After all they will want control of their own assets for when they need to sell them to pay for their liabilities. Undoubtedly ANZ management is inept, not for choosing to shut down Ansett but for buying it in the first place. Another angle is that Ansett employees could consider themselves fortunate that they were employed for as long as they were. The ANZ financial results show just where the money did go, all 1.5 million of it a day.
The vitriolic directed to New Zealand individuals is unnecessary and pathetic. The average Australian is a decent and honorable individual, so perhaps the individuals that I refer to are not of the same character.
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ANZAC spirit ? What would that jumped up ex street protesting excuse for a PM know about Anzac spirit ?
About as much as the ego maniacal, over confident, chip on the shoulder,bloated, snout in the trough, suited toadies of a board I guess. All graduates with honours from the great University of abysmal mediocrity & self delusion, now paying themselves handsome bonuses at workers expense by their own collective culpable ineptitude.
Next time, if there ever is a next time,stay in your insignificant little backwater & leave the power plays to the big boys ?
Oh & by the way, take your mangey fire blighted apples & dump em on some other near Pacific suckers !!!
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: shocka ]
About as much as the ego maniacal, over confident, chip on the shoulder,bloated, snout in the trough, suited toadies of a board I guess. All graduates with honours from the great University of abysmal mediocrity & self delusion, now paying themselves handsome bonuses at workers expense by their own collective culpable ineptitude.
Next time, if there ever is a next time,stay in your insignificant little backwater & leave the power plays to the big boys ?
Oh & by the way, take your mangey fire blighted apples & dump em on some other near Pacific suckers !!!
[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: shocka ]
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Worsening Crisis Is Nothing New For Air NZ
By Stephen Wright
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
WELLINGTON (Dow Jones)--Friday was business as usual for Air New Zealand . The airline's credit rating was cut, flights were canceled, its shares plumbed record lows, and there was speculation of mounting losses amid buck passing from management.
A question mark now hangs over the airline's future as it flies into heavy financial and political turbulence following the collapse overnight of its Australian subsidiary Ansett.
Air New Zealand believed voluntary administration had quarantined it from Ansett's liabilities and A$1.3 million a day losses, but that step couldn't shield it from the anger of Ansett's now jobless 16,000 workers and the 45,000 travelers stranded at Australian airports.
Air New Zealand jets were prevented from leaving Australian airports by labor action, and in an embarrassing low point for trans-Tasman relations, a flight carrying New Zealand's Prime Minister Helen Clark was stranded at Melbourne Airport by Ansett service vehicles.
Air New Zealand has yet to find an estimated NZ$500 million to cover the entitlements of Ansett's jettisoned employees, putting at risk the NZ$850 million refinancing plan stitched together by the government and major shareholders on Thursday.
The carrier Thursday reported a record NZ$1.425 billion full year net loss after writing down to zero its NZ$1.3 billion investment in hemorrhaging Ansett Australia.
Subject to due diligence, and the already satisfied condition of cutting Ansett adrift, the government will provide a NZ$550 million credit facility, while major shareholders Singapore Airlines (Singapore: SIAL.SI - news) (P.SAL) and Brierley Investments (A.BRY) will subscribe an equal share of NZ$300 million of new equity.
"My view is that Air New Zealand will be placed in administration and the government will end up owning it," said a local investment manager who asked not to be named.
The four to five week due diligence period exposes Air New Zealand and its bankers to considerable uncertainty while the emergence of significant contingent liabilities from Ansett could ground the rescue effort altogether, he said.
New Zealand's Finance Minister Michael Cullen, one of the architects of the refinancing package, also cast fresh doubt on the airline's future.
"There will no doubt be some liability owed by Air New Zealand to Ansett and those liabilities will be paid," Cullen said earlier on Friday.
"People are missing the point, perhaps, that Ansett's debts must be paid and if Air New Zealand can't pay that, then Air New Zealand is in threat of going into receivership," he said.
Cullen later clarified his comments, telling Dow Jones Newswires through a spokeswoman that "it should certainly not be taken from what I said that all Ansett's liabilities are Air New Zealand's."
Singapore Airlines, however, Friday reiterated its support for the refinancing arrangements.
"We are still committed to the NZ$150 million. That's still in place," a spokesman told Dow Jones Newswires.
Air New Zealand's shares, after surging Thursday on news of the rescue plan, hit fresh lows Friday amid concern about the financial implications of the Ansett collapse and general pressure on airline stocks from the U.S. terror attacks.
The carrier's resident-only A shares closed down 28.2% at NZ$0.51 and the unrestricted B shares gave up 32.4% to finish at NZ$0.50.
"There is quite a lot of uncertainty with Ansett being grounded and with all sorts of problems stemming from that," said Craig Robins, head of equities at Salomon Smith Barney in Wellington.
The airline canceled all flights to and from Australia after Ansett related industrial action shut down major airports there.
After the close of local stock market trading, Standard & Poor's cut Air New Zealand's B+ credit rating to B- which is one step above the vulnerable to default rating.
The credit ratings agency cited the airline's "very weak" financial position, limited financial flexibility, and the "uncertainties" associated with the recapitalization package.
"Commitment to the rescue package hinges on Air New Zealand releasing a full set of audited accounts, and clarification of its current financial position and contingent liabilities, without Ansett on its balance sheet," Standard & Poor's Corp. said.
The fall Friday in Air New Zealand's share price is also a concern, the agency said, because if sustained, will reduce the size of the proposed shareholder equity injection.
Air New Zealand, for its part, ineffectually pleaded it had given the Australian and New Zealand governments ample notice of the seriousness of Ansett's financial situation.
It's business as usual.
- By Stephen Wright, Dow Jones Newswires
By Stephen Wright
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
WELLINGTON (Dow Jones)--Friday was business as usual for Air New Zealand . The airline's credit rating was cut, flights were canceled, its shares plumbed record lows, and there was speculation of mounting losses amid buck passing from management.
A question mark now hangs over the airline's future as it flies into heavy financial and political turbulence following the collapse overnight of its Australian subsidiary Ansett.
Air New Zealand believed voluntary administration had quarantined it from Ansett's liabilities and A$1.3 million a day losses, but that step couldn't shield it from the anger of Ansett's now jobless 16,000 workers and the 45,000 travelers stranded at Australian airports.
Air New Zealand jets were prevented from leaving Australian airports by labor action, and in an embarrassing low point for trans-Tasman relations, a flight carrying New Zealand's Prime Minister Helen Clark was stranded at Melbourne Airport by Ansett service vehicles.
Air New Zealand has yet to find an estimated NZ$500 million to cover the entitlements of Ansett's jettisoned employees, putting at risk the NZ$850 million refinancing plan stitched together by the government and major shareholders on Thursday.
The carrier Thursday reported a record NZ$1.425 billion full year net loss after writing down to zero its NZ$1.3 billion investment in hemorrhaging Ansett Australia.
Subject to due diligence, and the already satisfied condition of cutting Ansett adrift, the government will provide a NZ$550 million credit facility, while major shareholders Singapore Airlines (Singapore: SIAL.SI - news) (P.SAL) and Brierley Investments (A.BRY) will subscribe an equal share of NZ$300 million of new equity.
"My view is that Air New Zealand will be placed in administration and the government will end up owning it," said a local investment manager who asked not to be named.
The four to five week due diligence period exposes Air New Zealand and its bankers to considerable uncertainty while the emergence of significant contingent liabilities from Ansett could ground the rescue effort altogether, he said.
New Zealand's Finance Minister Michael Cullen, one of the architects of the refinancing package, also cast fresh doubt on the airline's future.
"There will no doubt be some liability owed by Air New Zealand to Ansett and those liabilities will be paid," Cullen said earlier on Friday.
"People are missing the point, perhaps, that Ansett's debts must be paid and if Air New Zealand can't pay that, then Air New Zealand is in threat of going into receivership," he said.
Cullen later clarified his comments, telling Dow Jones Newswires through a spokeswoman that "it should certainly not be taken from what I said that all Ansett's liabilities are Air New Zealand's."
Singapore Airlines, however, Friday reiterated its support for the refinancing arrangements.
"We are still committed to the NZ$150 million. That's still in place," a spokesman told Dow Jones Newswires.
Air New Zealand's shares, after surging Thursday on news of the rescue plan, hit fresh lows Friday amid concern about the financial implications of the Ansett collapse and general pressure on airline stocks from the U.S. terror attacks.
The carrier's resident-only A shares closed down 28.2% at NZ$0.51 and the unrestricted B shares gave up 32.4% to finish at NZ$0.50.
"There is quite a lot of uncertainty with Ansett being grounded and with all sorts of problems stemming from that," said Craig Robins, head of equities at Salomon Smith Barney in Wellington.
The airline canceled all flights to and from Australia after Ansett related industrial action shut down major airports there.
After the close of local stock market trading, Standard & Poor's cut Air New Zealand's B+ credit rating to B- which is one step above the vulnerable to default rating.
The credit ratings agency cited the airline's "very weak" financial position, limited financial flexibility, and the "uncertainties" associated with the recapitalization package.
"Commitment to the rescue package hinges on Air New Zealand releasing a full set of audited accounts, and clarification of its current financial position and contingent liabilities, without Ansett on its balance sheet," Standard & Poor's Corp. said.
The fall Friday in Air New Zealand's share price is also a concern, the agency said, because if sustained, will reduce the size of the proposed shareholder equity injection.
Air New Zealand, for its part, ineffectually pleaded it had given the Australian and New Zealand governments ample notice of the seriousness of Ansett's financial situation.
It's business as usual.
- By Stephen Wright, Dow Jones Newswires
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2 'Blame game' infuriates Air NZ
14 September 2001
By MATHEW LOH HO-SANG
Responding to calls for his head in Parliament yesterday and accusations
from Deputy Prime Minister Jim Anderton that the existing Air NZ board
"couldn't run a corner dairy", Dr Farmer said today: "We were telling the
New Zealand Government back in June and the Aussies as far back as May that
Ansett Australia was losing over $2 million per day.
"And if this blame game - which is really no good for the present and future
wellbeing of Air New Zealand - continues, we will have to provide detailed
information on exactly what was said, who said it, and when, in order to
defend our position that the board did the best job it could under extremely
difficult circumstances".
Meanwhile, in response to calls from Australian union officials that Air NZ
guaranteed an estimated $6 million in accrued entitlements to Ansett
Australia staff whose jobs are seriously threatened, Dr Farmer said: "We
have continued to pay Ansett Australia wage bills and in fact have paid out
a wage bill today."
But he said it was too early to guarantee Air NZ responsibility for accrued
entitlements. "There is no doubt about what Ansett staff are entitled too
but the voluntary administrators have a lot of work to do before anything is
confirmed."
He explained his intentions to leave the board, saying the job had become
"highly pressured and basically full-time".
He had been under increasing pressure over the past months as the extent of
Air NZ's problems associated with Ansett Australia became public knowledge.
Dr Farmer also added he wanted no part of a board that was dominated by
vested interests.
Part of the conditions of the taxpayer-funded bailout is a restructuring of
the airline's board from 14 members to 9, including the managing director,
that will see the balance of power shift from independent board members to
stakeholders Brierley Investments and Singapore Airlines.
Dr Farmer confirmed his exit within hours of Ansett Australia's planes being
grounded, Air NZ's report of a $1.43 billion loss, and confirmation of a
taxpayer-funded $550 million loan to keep the Kiwi airline aloft.
Sources have confirmed the $550 million taxpayer-funded bailout announced by
the Government to recapitalise Air New Zealand is dependent on satisfactory
due diligence being completed by October 10.
"We are entering into a due diligence process now where we will examine Air
New Zealand closely, and if we aren't satisfied by October 10 that the $550
money loan will be money well spent then we will have to consider other
options," the source said.
14 September 2001
By MATHEW LOH HO-SANG
Responding to calls for his head in Parliament yesterday and accusations
from Deputy Prime Minister Jim Anderton that the existing Air NZ board
"couldn't run a corner dairy", Dr Farmer said today: "We were telling the
New Zealand Government back in June and the Aussies as far back as May that
Ansett Australia was losing over $2 million per day.
"And if this blame game - which is really no good for the present and future
wellbeing of Air New Zealand - continues, we will have to provide detailed
information on exactly what was said, who said it, and when, in order to
defend our position that the board did the best job it could under extremely
difficult circumstances".
Meanwhile, in response to calls from Australian union officials that Air NZ
guaranteed an estimated $6 million in accrued entitlements to Ansett
Australia staff whose jobs are seriously threatened, Dr Farmer said: "We
have continued to pay Ansett Australia wage bills and in fact have paid out
a wage bill today."
But he said it was too early to guarantee Air NZ responsibility for accrued
entitlements. "There is no doubt about what Ansett staff are entitled too
but the voluntary administrators have a lot of work to do before anything is
confirmed."
He explained his intentions to leave the board, saying the job had become
"highly pressured and basically full-time".
He had been under increasing pressure over the past months as the extent of
Air NZ's problems associated with Ansett Australia became public knowledge.
Dr Farmer also added he wanted no part of a board that was dominated by
vested interests.
Part of the conditions of the taxpayer-funded bailout is a restructuring of
the airline's board from 14 members to 9, including the managing director,
that will see the balance of power shift from independent board members to
stakeholders Brierley Investments and Singapore Airlines.
Dr Farmer confirmed his exit within hours of Ansett Australia's planes being
grounded, Air NZ's report of a $1.43 billion loss, and confirmation of a
taxpayer-funded $550 million loan to keep the Kiwi airline aloft.
Sources have confirmed the $550 million taxpayer-funded bailout announced by
the Government to recapitalise Air New Zealand is dependent on satisfactory
due diligence being completed by October 10.
"We are entering into a due diligence process now where we will examine Air
New Zealand closely, and if we aren't satisfied by October 10 that the $550
money loan will be money well spent then we will have to consider other
options," the source said.
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I hope that Air Nz are soon out of business, unfortunately this hurts employees and not he management that all should be shot. Also the way Air NZ Govt has acted is also disgraceful. I heard one report that NZ govt have given Air NZ a cash injection of $500 million on the conditions that it got rid of Ansett. New Zealand forget one simple thing, they are a very small, insignificant country. Nobody needs them or what they have to offer, they need Australia more than we need them. I say that the happy relations that have occured in the past between our countries has ended today. No longer should bludging New Zealanders be so welcomed in out fair country. This may seem harsh, but when they realise that the actions of not only Air NZ and their Govt have caused this situation to come about they may get rid of their govt next election.
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Gee'z Red, bit sensative are we?
One thing l would like to clarify.
AN pilots were paid more than NZ pilots per type. However, AN pilots award was ten times more flexible than NZ's, and under a common agreement throughout the fleet, as opposed to the ten(?) different awards and variations in between that each NZ pilot was working under. That must be a scheduling and crewing nightmare! And as a result you get paid less. Less hours less money, more hours more money. If you work at NZ you probably enjoy a very good lifestyle that your contract has given you. So enjoy it while it lasts, because it won't be long before Sir Selwyn does the fire sale to buy that villa in the south of France he has always wanted.
If anyone should be sensative, maybe it should be me as l lost my job yesterday, but hey, another door opens.
One thing l would like to clarify.
AN pilots were paid more than NZ pilots per type. However, AN pilots award was ten times more flexible than NZ's, and under a common agreement throughout the fleet, as opposed to the ten(?) different awards and variations in between that each NZ pilot was working under. That must be a scheduling and crewing nightmare! And as a result you get paid less. Less hours less money, more hours more money. If you work at NZ you probably enjoy a very good lifestyle that your contract has given you. So enjoy it while it lasts, because it won't be long before Sir Selwyn does the fire sale to buy that villa in the south of France he has always wanted.
If anyone should be sensative, maybe it should be me as l lost my job yesterday, but hey, another door opens.
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So if all the employees at AirNZ lost there jobs as well then you lot would feel better?
I don't think so!
You'd then be complaining that there were 650 NZ pilots stealing your jobs in CX,Emeriates,Europe,etc
Look I feel sorry for everyone that has lost there job at Ansett, I'm worried about mine as well! But you can't blame the AIRNZ employees and Kiwis for the actions of a few senior management. It aint gonna make time go back.
As I've said before if you are honest about Ansett, then this has been coming for 10years, we just ended up holding the baby.
If you want to blame the people responsible for the demise of Ansett, heres the list;
1, Abeles,Hawke
2, 89 Sc@bs
3, Murdoch (Asset stripping AN)
4, Keating (reneging on the open skies agreement to allow Airnz to operate domestic routes in Aussie)
5, News corp (cooking the books prior to sale)
6, Cushing (buying the other half)
7, Aust.government for not allowing us to restructure it without laying anyone off!! (that was a good one)
8, Outdated Aust.labour practises (cleaners getting 50k!!)
9, Aust. unions
10, NZ government for being a bit slow (probably just as well)
11, Aussie gov. for not helping out!
12, Anderson
13, CASA
14, SIA (to cunning for there own good)
15, Branson (cut price airline forcing fares down)
16, Oil prices,etc,etc
Blimming heck, it should have gone bust ages ago!!!
Dr Farmer last night produced on TV the documents given to your Government(June) outlining the huge financial losses An were incurring!! & they did nothing!! They obvisously care about you alot!!
So Knock OFF the Bashing!!
PS, if you wont load my 737 next week thats ok cause I'll do it myself.
I don't think so!
You'd then be complaining that there were 650 NZ pilots stealing your jobs in CX,Emeriates,Europe,etc
Look I feel sorry for everyone that has lost there job at Ansett, I'm worried about mine as well! But you can't blame the AIRNZ employees and Kiwis for the actions of a few senior management. It aint gonna make time go back.
As I've said before if you are honest about Ansett, then this has been coming for 10years, we just ended up holding the baby.
If you want to blame the people responsible for the demise of Ansett, heres the list;
1, Abeles,Hawke
2, 89 Sc@bs
3, Murdoch (Asset stripping AN)
4, Keating (reneging on the open skies agreement to allow Airnz to operate domestic routes in Aussie)
5, News corp (cooking the books prior to sale)
6, Cushing (buying the other half)
7, Aust.government for not allowing us to restructure it without laying anyone off!! (that was a good one)
8, Outdated Aust.labour practises (cleaners getting 50k!!)
9, Aust. unions
10, NZ government for being a bit slow (probably just as well)
11, Aussie gov. for not helping out!
12, Anderson
13, CASA
14, SIA (to cunning for there own good)
15, Branson (cut price airline forcing fares down)
16, Oil prices,etc,etc
Blimming heck, it should have gone bust ages ago!!!
Dr Farmer last night produced on TV the documents given to your Government(June) outlining the huge financial losses An were incurring!! & they did nothing!! They obvisously care about you alot!!
So Knock OFF the Bashing!!
PS, if you wont load my 737 next week thats ok cause I'll do it myself.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Java, grow up.
Most of what Red says is correct. Just remember Ansetts woes were not just financial in nature. The Airline was dying because of a lack of passengers. What passengers I hear you ask : AUSTRALIAN ones!!" You guys need to look a little closer to home before condemning all kiwis to the scrap heap.
On a more humane note, I think that you will find that most kiwis feel very badly for the Ansett staff, no Aviation Professional likes to see an Airline go under. I don't condone what Air New Zealand has done, nor the way it has acted, but one thing is for sure, sending Air New Zealand under ain't going to solve anything.
Most of what Red says is correct. Just remember Ansetts woes were not just financial in nature. The Airline was dying because of a lack of passengers. What passengers I hear you ask : AUSTRALIAN ones!!" You guys need to look a little closer to home before condemning all kiwis to the scrap heap.
On a more humane note, I think that you will find that most kiwis feel very badly for the Ansett staff, no Aviation Professional likes to see an Airline go under. I don't condone what Air New Zealand has done, nor the way it has acted, but one thing is for sure, sending Air New Zealand under ain't going to solve anything.
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Perhaps the Air NZ board in the current crisis would do well to reflect on the phrase "orchestrated litany of lies".
(Justice Peter Mahon's comments made about Air NZ management during the inquiry into the tragic Mt Erebus disaster all those years ago).
(Justice Peter Mahon's comments made about Air NZ management during the inquiry into the tragic Mt Erebus disaster all those years ago).
Join Date: Apr 2000
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BP, l for one do not want to bash or see any further job losses, that would not make me happy.
As for the others, l suggest you read Wirraways 'Australian article (long)' for an insight into why some people feel the way they do.
l again stress that the NZ board is culpable and negligent in all their dealings and should be held with great suspicion in their next great move.
l hold total contempt for Sir Selwyn, as most people it appears do. But also Jim Farmer is just as bad. Why it was only two weeks ago we took him up to Hamilton Island so he was able to sail in race week up there.
If that is not holding the entire NZ/AN company in contempt during a crisis, then l do not know what is.
Get that government of yours to straighten out the corporate shinanigans that are allowed to go on there, and NZ may not end up in the spiral dive it is in at the moment.
But then l think it is too late for that.
As for the others, l suggest you read Wirraways 'Australian article (long)' for an insight into why some people feel the way they do.
l again stress that the NZ board is culpable and negligent in all their dealings and should be held with great suspicion in their next great move.
l hold total contempt for Sir Selwyn, as most people it appears do. But also Jim Farmer is just as bad. Why it was only two weeks ago we took him up to Hamilton Island so he was able to sail in race week up there.
If that is not holding the entire NZ/AN company in contempt during a crisis, then l do not know what is.
Get that government of yours to straighten out the corporate shinanigans that are allowed to go on there, and NZ may not end up in the spiral dive it is in at the moment.
But then l think it is too late for that.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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If your mind is made up & you don't want to be confused by the facts, skip this post.
When Air NZ bought 50% of AN in '96 it also inject the thick end of a further $150m to keep it going. Ansett has been kept aloft in more recent times by 'significant' contributions from the broader group, ie AIR NEW ZEALAND. Instead of cursing us and condemning us to the scrap heap you ought buy us a few beers next time you see us for keeping you employed for so long.
As for the 50% ownership. News Corp retained the management and ANZ got 3 directors. When was the last time you saw a director fixing a jet or checking the uneditted books? They only knew what AN management, ie News Corp management, told them. News Corp always wanted out so what were the ANZ directors told? You work it out.
I don't actually care how many contracts Air NZ pilots have - there's only one that counts, the NZALPA one as it is the most restrictive and all other groups work by it even though they have less restrictive (**** poor) ones and more pay. The 'flexibility' of the Ansett contracts is irrelevant, read what I said previously, on similar PRODUCTIVITY rates ANZ pilots are way cheaper than AN pilots.
As far as the 17m v 3m population comparisons. Why do you think ANZ bought in in the first place? If Keating hadn't reneged on open skies we would now have a stand alone Kiwi carrier in Oz in accordance with CER. I read a comment today regarding Helenovich's commitment to CER, how good was Keatings? The only reason Air NZ bought into Ansett is because we couldn't start our own and it appeared to be a better airline than a closer inspection proved.
HT, I'm sorry you lost your job yesterday but 10-12 years ago 70ish Air NZ pilots lost there's on the altar of corporate efficiency too. I know the scale is different in your case but on an individual basis this is no different, it's just come 10 years later.
Best of luck in the job search.
As for those who wish an early or otherwise demise on Air NZ - You're beneath contempt
When Air NZ bought 50% of AN in '96 it also inject the thick end of a further $150m to keep it going. Ansett has been kept aloft in more recent times by 'significant' contributions from the broader group, ie AIR NEW ZEALAND. Instead of cursing us and condemning us to the scrap heap you ought buy us a few beers next time you see us for keeping you employed for so long.
As for the 50% ownership. News Corp retained the management and ANZ got 3 directors. When was the last time you saw a director fixing a jet or checking the uneditted books? They only knew what AN management, ie News Corp management, told them. News Corp always wanted out so what were the ANZ directors told? You work it out.
I don't actually care how many contracts Air NZ pilots have - there's only one that counts, the NZALPA one as it is the most restrictive and all other groups work by it even though they have less restrictive (**** poor) ones and more pay. The 'flexibility' of the Ansett contracts is irrelevant, read what I said previously, on similar PRODUCTIVITY rates ANZ pilots are way cheaper than AN pilots.
As far as the 17m v 3m population comparisons. Why do you think ANZ bought in in the first place? If Keating hadn't reneged on open skies we would now have a stand alone Kiwi carrier in Oz in accordance with CER. I read a comment today regarding Helenovich's commitment to CER, how good was Keatings? The only reason Air NZ bought into Ansett is because we couldn't start our own and it appeared to be a better airline than a closer inspection proved.
HT, I'm sorry you lost your job yesterday but 10-12 years ago 70ish Air NZ pilots lost there's on the altar of corporate efficiency too. I know the scale is different in your case but on an individual basis this is no different, it's just come 10 years later.
Best of luck in the job search.
As for those who wish an early or otherwise demise on Air NZ - You're beneath contempt