IFR practice.
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IFR practice.
I am just marking time waiting for an appointment to get a final examination at my eye doctor for laser surgery I had a few months ago once that is done I am off for a few months of driving around in the motor home just going where ever it is pointed on a given day. I may as well get as much time sight seeing in it before I get to old to drive the thing.
So with nothing better to do I decided to see how many of you guys out there practice Zero Zero landings when out doing IFR refresher training.
Back in the stone age of flying I was very fortunate to have flown with a truly gifted pilot who introduced me to doing every landing under pretend zero zero conditions by placing a map in front of my windshield and he monitored me while I landed in pretend zero zero conditions.
NOTE:
You need an ILS to find the runway when you practice this, and your final approach and touch down is exactly the same as a glassy water landing...the trick is land on the runway.
It is very safe as the monitoring pilot can make sure you don't crash the thing.
The first airplane I did that in was a Grand Commander which was a delight to fly.
His insistence I become comfortable landing zero zero was one of the best training I ever received because many years later it really made a big difference in completing a couple of very dicey landings when I was faced with conditions that had deteriorated way below what was forecast and I had no where else to go.
So....how many of you practice landing in pretend zero zero conditions?
So with nothing better to do I decided to see how many of you guys out there practice Zero Zero landings when out doing IFR refresher training.
Back in the stone age of flying I was very fortunate to have flown with a truly gifted pilot who introduced me to doing every landing under pretend zero zero conditions by placing a map in front of my windshield and he monitored me while I landed in pretend zero zero conditions.
NOTE:
You need an ILS to find the runway when you practice this, and your final approach and touch down is exactly the same as a glassy water landing...the trick is land on the runway.
It is very safe as the monitoring pilot can make sure you don't crash the thing.
The first airplane I did that in was a Grand Commander which was a delight to fly.
His insistence I become comfortable landing zero zero was one of the best training I ever received because many years later it really made a big difference in completing a couple of very dicey landings when I was faced with conditions that had deteriorated way below what was forecast and I had no where else to go.
So....how many of you practice landing in pretend zero zero conditions?
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Isn't that something to be practiced in the sim?
I would class zero/zero landing in the same realm as doing V1 cuts in the plane.
Sure its not the same as the real deal but it gives you some level of expectation without the inherent risk.
I would class zero/zero landing in the same realm as doing V1 cuts in the plane.
Sure its not the same as the real deal but it gives you some level of expectation without the inherent risk.
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Isn't that something to be practiced in the sim?
I would class zero/zero landing in the same realm as doing V1 cuts in the plane.
Sure its not the same as the real deal but it gives you some level of expectation without the inherent risk.
Remember all that is preventing you from seeing the runway is the map that was stuck in the windshield in front of you....and that is easy to remove.
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I've "practiced" simulated zero zero in the sim. CAT II/III. Nothing seen, go-around. That's realistic training as that is what you will do in real life. How many airports with an ILS are going to clear you for the approach under zero zero? Is there value in training for that? I'd suggest flying the approach to published minimums and making an appropriate decision at that time.
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How many airports with an ILS are going to clear you for the approach under zero zero?
Nothing in aviation is guaranteed to be what you plan for.
So lets assume you have been out for the last hour doing recurrent training in your Navajo and for the last approach you put a map in front of you so you cant see the runway and you and the training Captain brief a zero zero touch down the same as you would brief a PMA.
If everything goes well you will touch down on the runway with safety distances and on the pavement, if it is getting to far off a safe approach the PNF only has to verbally and physically take control and either miss the approach or land it.
During those few seconds all you have to do is reach up and remove the map to see how far you had gotten off a doable approach and landing.
What is wrong with that?
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Your clearance would read "copy your emergency, approach at your desecration..." Or something to that effect.
Chuck and I have obviously done GCAs. Do they even exist any more Chuck?
On the other hand, true zero zero is pretty rare. A glassy water landing, even in a Navajo with the LOC centred, will result in a safe landing. Trick is, get it stopped ASAP.....while you're still on pavement!
WD
Chuck and I have obviously done GCAs. Do they even exist any more Chuck?
On the other hand, true zero zero is pretty rare. A glassy water landing, even in a Navajo with the LOC centred, will result in a safe landing. Trick is, get it stopped ASAP.....while you're still on pavement!
WD
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Chuck and I have obviously done GCAs. Do they even exist any more Chuck?
There was a time when they were common, when I was flying for Mobil Oil in the late sixties, early seventies we used the GCA controller whenever the weather was at or near limits.
GCA was the best approach you could wish for when the weather was bad....they could talk you right to touch down.
On the other hand, true zero zero is pretty rare.
...so why not be comfortable you can do it?
The Arctic can go CAVU to Zero / Zero in a very short time.....all it takes is a high wind and you have a white out.
The Sahara can go from CAVU to zero / zero in a very short time and you have a brown out.
Been there...done that...
Way way back in the dark ages, my instructor made me land on instruments after a PAR in a Chipmunk. A very interesting exercise!
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Hi Chuck,
You have me thinking…while in certain places and in certain types it might be something to put in your tool box. Think about this though, what about "practising" solid decision making first? Then maybe that way one wouldn't find himself in the not so fun position of having to use that tool? I get that things change fast in the Arctic and other sandy places, I've flown lots in both, never saw it in the Arctic but did in the sandbox. (looked like scene from The Mummy!) If a guy was to be smart and use his noodle, he or she would never end up in that position, I would advocate the same as a poster above, teach the decision making first…there are enough traps to fall into without having some young pilot believing he can shoot a zero zero if he screws up and gets caught out…because believe me, there are those who will push on knowing that they've "practised" it…not a great idea in any type that isn't CAT III A, and without proper training…not "practise" as you say.
Having said that, I have seen fully qualified heavy jet Captains "push" weather and fuel by using the excuse that the destination and alternates are all CAT III airports and then declare a fuel emergency after reroutes and holds…not ever believing that it could happen…I call it "I'm The Only Airplane In The Sky" theory. Teach the rules, show them how they work, and not to cheat! Cheers...
You have me thinking…while in certain places and in certain types it might be something to put in your tool box. Think about this though, what about "practising" solid decision making first? Then maybe that way one wouldn't find himself in the not so fun position of having to use that tool? I get that things change fast in the Arctic and other sandy places, I've flown lots in both, never saw it in the Arctic but did in the sandbox. (looked like scene from The Mummy!) If a guy was to be smart and use his noodle, he or she would never end up in that position, I would advocate the same as a poster above, teach the decision making first…there are enough traps to fall into without having some young pilot believing he can shoot a zero zero if he screws up and gets caught out…because believe me, there are those who will push on knowing that they've "practised" it…not a great idea in any type that isn't CAT III A, and without proper training…not "practise" as you say.
Having said that, I have seen fully qualified heavy jet Captains "push" weather and fuel by using the excuse that the destination and alternates are all CAT III airports and then declare a fuel emergency after reroutes and holds…not ever believing that it could happen…I call it "I'm The Only Airplane In The Sky" theory. Teach the rules, show them how they work, and not to cheat! Cheers...
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Hi Chuck,
You have me thinking…while in certain places and in certain types it might be something to put in your tool box. Think about this though, what about "practising" solid decision making first?
You have me thinking…while in certain places and in certain types it might be something to put in your tool box. Think about this though, what about "practising" solid decision making first?
Therefore my suggesting one practice zero / zero landings even occasionally is just another skill set that does no harm to be comfortable with, if some day things go sideways and you are faced with an emergency landing in weather below limits at least you have practiced it.
If we only teach things that solid decision making will prevent why don't we quit teaching stall and spin recovery?
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Gonna have to disagree there Chuck…at least a little. Decision making, like any skill, gets better with experience. You won't find many highly experienced people getting into spins or stalls these days, at least not in my line of work. I can definitely say that getting into the zero zero bind is extremely rare as well. So are you referring to the lower time pilots who might work for a 703 or 703 operator? Or student pilots? A newly IFR rated pilot potentially might fit that profile…but as time and experience build the stats go way down. We still "practice" stalls in the sim, because Boeing has changed the recovery methods to allow for a quick return to flying speed, and altitude loss is allowed if ground contact is not a factor. Jet upset recovery training? Not that new, but still practised. Spin training? Not since my PPL and that was almost 35 years ago. Zero zero approaches? Yes…every six months, but actually flying one in anger? Maybe one or two in the last 10 years. Statistically they just don't come around that often. So train the decision making process…guess what kills more pilots than a zero zero landing? Ready? Unstable approaches, and the dreaded Go Around…or to be more precise, not Going Around! If you want to save a few good training hours, teach that going around after a failed or unstable approach will keep one alive longer than anything else. It's SOP with almost every carrier I can think of. Cheers...
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Left Coaster you do not seem to understand what I was suggesting.
I was not suggesting that any pilot deliberately try a zero / zero landing unless it is an emergency, if you go back and read what I wrote it was really not anything very exotic.
So once again let me slowly re write it.
If you are on a re-current training flight with a qualified check pilot......... put a map in the windshield on your final approach and land the damn thing without seeing the runway.
The check pilot should have enough working neurons to prevent you from wrecking the airplane.
What is wrong with doing that?
I think that I understand proper decision making, unless I have been just plain lucky for the past sixty years of flying most every thing known to man.
I was not suggesting that any pilot deliberately try a zero / zero landing unless it is an emergency, if you go back and read what I wrote it was really not anything very exotic.
So once again let me slowly re write it.
If you are on a re-current training flight with a qualified check pilot......... put a map in the windshield on your final approach and land the damn thing without seeing the runway.
The check pilot should have enough working neurons to prevent you from wrecking the airplane.
What is wrong with doing that?
I think that I understand proper decision making, unless I have been just plain lucky for the past sixty years of flying most every thing known to man.
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I don't know, Chuck, sometimes it seems to me like you're just messing with people.
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Hi Chuck, I (we) get to practise a cat111a every six months to renew requirements. Jazz has a HUD in every CRJ and Q400. Pretty slick breaking out at 50ft and 1/4 mile. Under TC rules we have to hand fly the aircraft
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Thanks Flyer 1492 I was getting despondent and feeling like I was posting in a vacuum, it is nice to see someone else out there understands the importance of precision flying.
I had no idea Jazz has HUD in their machines and it is nice to know you have them, my first experience with HUD was when I was working for Aeropostale in Paris...great system.
Precision approaches either hand flown or autoland really add to flying safety and are not some kind of black magic.
Looking back on the different types of approaches we flew my preference for precision approaches would be PAR first then PMA....especially with a HUD.
Autoland is another animal entirely.
Anyhow...once again thanks I was beginning to think there is something wrong with the way I think.
I had no idea Jazz has HUD in their machines and it is nice to know you have them, my first experience with HUD was when I was working for Aeropostale in Paris...great system.
Precision approaches either hand flown or autoland really add to flying safety and are not some kind of black magic.
Looking back on the different types of approaches we flew my preference for precision approaches would be PAR first then PMA....especially with a HUD.
Autoland is another animal entirely.
Anyhow...once again thanks I was beginning to think there is something wrong with the way I think.