Foreign Pilot Petition
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Scott C, you and your parents came over to Canada as immigrants. So did mine. I definitely do not object to someone like you working here in Canada. As stated by Minorite, this petition is for temporary workers taking jobs from ordinary Canadians. This will affect you as well. There are many pilots looking for work in Canada and many others looking to move up to the airlines. This affects them. Many who have made comments on this thread are not affected by this. Look at the petition and how many have signed. These are Canadian pilots protecting Canadian jobs. Like I said, sign if you agree.
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This whole petition is ill thought out and stinks of short sighted unions failing to see the big picture.
the way you keep talking about "Canadians" I think you should refer to Indian's as Canada is nation of immigrants... So it's really come full circle.. Pot kettle black?
Canada has a history of embracing foreigners and should continue to do so.
Why anyone would rather see Sunwing out of business as opposed to having outside investment..... Very strange!
Maybe this ill thought out action will start affecting Canadians traveling elsewhere (already occurred with the UAE)
Perhaps the capacity fluctuations at Sunwing should be fixed by means of wet lease, thus providing no chance of Canadians being in an operating seat.
the way you keep talking about "Canadians" I think you should refer to Indian's as Canada is nation of immigrants... So it's really come full circle.. Pot kettle black?
Canada has a history of embracing foreigners and should continue to do so.
Why anyone would rather see Sunwing out of business as opposed to having outside investment..... Very strange!
Maybe this ill thought out action will start affecting Canadians traveling elsewhere (already occurred with the UAE)
Perhaps the capacity fluctuations at Sunwing should be fixed by means of wet lease, thus providing no chance of Canadians being in an operating seat.
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PT6A
What a misinformed post. If you don't understand the issue, why bother to join in?
Your suggestion that native Indians are the only true Canadians is nothing more than ignorance and a repetition of the nonsense we so often hear from ignorant Europeans. The North American indian migrated from Asia. Even the Europeans crawled out of the sea at some point. So who came from where and when is nothing more than sticking your finger on history's timeline and saying, "Let's go from here". When was Europe populated? Tribes migrated and settled all across the continent as I recall from early schooling. Does it really matter in 2012?
I'm Canadian of German descent. My family immigrated in the early 1800's to this country. Every generation of my family since was born and raised here. So why can't I claim German citizenship if you think me and Canadians similar to me are truly non-Canadian. What would you consider me to be if I'm not a real Canadian? Am I European then?
Don't be ridiculous.
Foreign pilots working in Canada is a big deal. A HUGE deal in fact.
Especially when those pilots were given these jobs under false pretenses under the blind eye of our government. The pretense being there are no Canadian pilots qualified to fill the positions. There are hundreds of Canadian pilots more than qualified, capable and willing to fill these vacancies. But for the lack of a B737 NG type rating, Canadian pilots are considered Not Qualified. I, for one, would beg to differ.
The idea of reciprocity is nothing more than idiotic drivel from those who don't understand the dynamic differences from market to market and region to region. There will never be equality in reciprocity. It's a non-starter.
If Sunwings fate is to go bust over this, then so be it. At least they can't say it was because there weren't enough "Canadian" pilots available to fill the positions. I have over 11,000 hours, am typed on B737/757/767 A310/A300 holding 3 ATPLs and wasn't even afforded the decency of PFO letter. As for finding something overseas? My Type Ratings except for one, have all lapsed. As everyone on PPRuNe well knows, if you aren't current and qualified, NO ONE is going to take you on. An individuals 'effort' to find something overseas with lapsed ratings is nothing more than a wasted effort. Welcome to aviation.
So yes, there are Canadian pilots well qualified out here for any B737 generation any Canadian carrier would wish to have in its fleet. No need for foreign pilots, period.
I'm sure the day this country has a pilot shortage foreign pilots will be welcome. The fact is there is no pilot shortage over here at present. Sunwing and Canjet merely don't wish to invest in type ratings. For Canadian pilots, this petition should matter.
As for your suggetion of wet lease as a solution, I tend to agree with you. Short term seasonal uplift would likely result in alot less commotion. In this particular case, not only are foreign pilots flying European registered aeroplanes they are also flying Canadian registered aeroplanes on an LVC. Nothing could be further from any wet lease agreement.
Bulls*it, I say.
Willie
What a misinformed post. If you don't understand the issue, why bother to join in?
Your suggestion that native Indians are the only true Canadians is nothing more than ignorance and a repetition of the nonsense we so often hear from ignorant Europeans. The North American indian migrated from Asia. Even the Europeans crawled out of the sea at some point. So who came from where and when is nothing more than sticking your finger on history's timeline and saying, "Let's go from here". When was Europe populated? Tribes migrated and settled all across the continent as I recall from early schooling. Does it really matter in 2012?
I'm Canadian of German descent. My family immigrated in the early 1800's to this country. Every generation of my family since was born and raised here. So why can't I claim German citizenship if you think me and Canadians similar to me are truly non-Canadian. What would you consider me to be if I'm not a real Canadian? Am I European then?
Don't be ridiculous.
Foreign pilots working in Canada is a big deal. A HUGE deal in fact.
Especially when those pilots were given these jobs under false pretenses under the blind eye of our government. The pretense being there are no Canadian pilots qualified to fill the positions. There are hundreds of Canadian pilots more than qualified, capable and willing to fill these vacancies. But for the lack of a B737 NG type rating, Canadian pilots are considered Not Qualified. I, for one, would beg to differ.
The idea of reciprocity is nothing more than idiotic drivel from those who don't understand the dynamic differences from market to market and region to region. There will never be equality in reciprocity. It's a non-starter.
If Sunwings fate is to go bust over this, then so be it. At least they can't say it was because there weren't enough "Canadian" pilots available to fill the positions. I have over 11,000 hours, am typed on B737/757/767 A310/A300 holding 3 ATPLs and wasn't even afforded the decency of PFO letter. As for finding something overseas? My Type Ratings except for one, have all lapsed. As everyone on PPRuNe well knows, if you aren't current and qualified, NO ONE is going to take you on. An individuals 'effort' to find something overseas with lapsed ratings is nothing more than a wasted effort. Welcome to aviation.
So yes, there are Canadian pilots well qualified out here for any B737 generation any Canadian carrier would wish to have in its fleet. No need for foreign pilots, period.
I'm sure the day this country has a pilot shortage foreign pilots will be welcome. The fact is there is no pilot shortage over here at present. Sunwing and Canjet merely don't wish to invest in type ratings. For Canadian pilots, this petition should matter.
As for your suggetion of wet lease as a solution, I tend to agree with you. Short term seasonal uplift would likely result in alot less commotion. In this particular case, not only are foreign pilots flying European registered aeroplanes they are also flying Canadian registered aeroplanes on an LVC. Nothing could be further from any wet lease agreement.
Bulls*it, I say.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 11th May 2012 at 01:17.
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It has already been found in court that an employer is legally allowed to classify various types as totally separate jobs, the case in question was for redundancy, but will of course hold true for hiring.
So if a company operate both 737's and A320's then the positions flying those fleets are considered completely separate.
As such if a company needed to downsize and remove the 737 fleet it could remove people higher in the seniority list, based on the fact they are not type rated on the A320.
Why should Sunwing be forced to over inflate its workforce when it only requires the numbers for a period of the year?
Further why should they pay for type rating when they dont get year round use out of them?
It's easy to see why they came to the sensible business solution - to use qualified pilots (from effectively sister companies) to operate flights. It makes business sense.
It's not too unlike FedEx operating N reg aircraft with American crews in Europe, doing intra-European flights... Welcome to the world of business.
With the exception of WestJet Canada does not have much going for it in terms of airlines (lots of GA though) so you really want to see the back of Sunwing?
Ps. No I don't think you should be an Indian to fly in Canada, but the way your petition is drafted and the remarks on this website.... Your leaving a very sour taste in people's mouths.
I loved the season I flew in Canada, they made everything so simple
Work permit at the airport, visited the TC office and an ATPL was printed out... Couple of weeks later the real one arrived in the post
Maybe, you would prefer Sunwing to be introduced to CTC... Then many Canadians can "fly" for Sunwing, you won't be working for them but you will be flying the big shiny jet.
So if a company operate both 737's and A320's then the positions flying those fleets are considered completely separate.
As such if a company needed to downsize and remove the 737 fleet it could remove people higher in the seniority list, based on the fact they are not type rated on the A320.
Why should Sunwing be forced to over inflate its workforce when it only requires the numbers for a period of the year?
Further why should they pay for type rating when they dont get year round use out of them?
It's easy to see why they came to the sensible business solution - to use qualified pilots (from effectively sister companies) to operate flights. It makes business sense.
It's not too unlike FedEx operating N reg aircraft with American crews in Europe, doing intra-European flights... Welcome to the world of business.
With the exception of WestJet Canada does not have much going for it in terms of airlines (lots of GA though) so you really want to see the back of Sunwing?
Ps. No I don't think you should be an Indian to fly in Canada, but the way your petition is drafted and the remarks on this website.... Your leaving a very sour taste in people's mouths.
I loved the season I flew in Canada, they made everything so simple
Work permit at the airport, visited the TC office and an ATPL was printed out... Couple of weeks later the real one arrived in the post
Maybe, you would prefer Sunwing to be introduced to CTC... Then many Canadians can "fly" for Sunwing, you won't be working for them but you will be flying the big shiny jet.
PT6A;
Just what exactly do you suppose happens to those part-time aircraft that Sunwing and Canjet don't use during the summer? They don't sit up against some fence waiting for the snow to fly here in Canada. They go back to Europe where they came from and they fly charter flights to sunny climates for folks from northern Europe. And guess who flies them? That's right, the same pilots who fly them over here in the winter.
Given that these seasonal fluctuations are a reality that won't soon go away, the real solution is a balanced reciprocal crew sharing agreement, one where Canadians and Europeans benefit equally. Such an agreement has been used voluntarily in the past - and successfully so. Sunwing has a limited amount of such an agreement, but it is not equal and balanced. I'd guess that if they were required to have such a program in place, another 80 to 100 Canadians would be eligible for an airline job in this country.
This also goes to more than just pilot jobs in Canada, it also goes to a significant competitive advantage. The industry standard in Canada is not set by small charter outfits, it's set by the large airlines like AC, WS and Jazz, all of whom take on the responsibility (and cost) of training their pilots. They too are being hurt by this program in that their competitors are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in training costs.
There is a real and balanced solution that can and does work. That is all the petition is asking for.
Just what exactly do you suppose happens to those part-time aircraft that Sunwing and Canjet don't use during the summer? They don't sit up against some fence waiting for the snow to fly here in Canada. They go back to Europe where they came from and they fly charter flights to sunny climates for folks from northern Europe. And guess who flies them? That's right, the same pilots who fly them over here in the winter.
Given that these seasonal fluctuations are a reality that won't soon go away, the real solution is a balanced reciprocal crew sharing agreement, one where Canadians and Europeans benefit equally. Such an agreement has been used voluntarily in the past - and successfully so. Sunwing has a limited amount of such an agreement, but it is not equal and balanced. I'd guess that if they were required to have such a program in place, another 80 to 100 Canadians would be eligible for an airline job in this country.
This also goes to more than just pilot jobs in Canada, it also goes to a significant competitive advantage. The industry standard in Canada is not set by small charter outfits, it's set by the large airlines like AC, WS and Jazz, all of whom take on the responsibility (and cost) of training their pilots. They too are being hurt by this program in that their competitors are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars in training costs.
There is a real and balanced solution that can and does work. That is all the petition is asking for.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
J.O but the agreement was not oupheld by Sunwing, they could not release the pilots to go to Europe so only a handful went.
I think you do not understand the issue. Canadian Immigration Regulations require an equal reciprocity. There is no agreement or regulation that allows Sunwing or Canjet to ignore that regulation. They have just been abusing the system, but will no longer be able to do so, for we will hold our Government, which can no longer claim ignorance, accountable.
Here is that regulation:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...w/fw01-eng.pdf
R205(b) allows foreign workers to take up employment when reciprocal opportunities are provided for Canadian citizens to take temporary employment abroad. Exchange programs offer the opportunity of gaining international experience and allow the cultural exchange of both foreign and Canadian participants and their employers. Entry under reciprocal provisions should result in a neutral labour market impact.
Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market.
Although it is not necessary that there be full reciprocity in practice within the same time frame (i.e. one for one exchange), there must at least be proof that there is or has been reciprocity, and the general order of magnitude of exchanges should be similar in order to demonstrate that, over a reasonable period of time (e.g. five years), there is a general neutral impact on the labour market.
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 11th May 2012 at 17:25.
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PT6A
It's easy to see why they came to the sensible business solution - to use qualified pilots (from effectively sister companies) to operate flights. It makes business sense.
Sister companies? Actually, I think these businesses are quite separate and only associate on a "what can I gain financially by sleeping with you" arrangement. They couldn't giva ****e about pilots and where they come from.
Again, Canada has a significant number of qualified pilots who can easily fill the requirements of Sunwing or Canjet. I don't think we need to repeat this statement for you. We seem to agree.
It is easily understood by most Canadian pilots that hiring qualified pilots makes sense. It really does make good business sense. But the simple reality is that these carriers are hiring seasonally European pilots when it simply isn't necessary for any Canadian carrier at the moment. They're simply too lazy and too cheap to provide the type rating training.
Since the Canadian Government has seen fit to allow them to do so through flawed legislation that covers more appropriately 'seasonal crop workers' to pick fruits and vegetables (where there truly is a shortage of workers) it's certainly inappropriate considering the present situation in Canadian aviation. Until we have a shortage of qualified Canadian pilots, the foreigners can stay home. When that changes, we'll have little or no choice, come on over.
If it is a type rating you're using to separate the men from the boys, then I can tell you most operators over here with some exceptions actually train new hires through a type rating course. As for me personally, I won't self sponsor any type rating, I am qualified enough. So, what's next? Have the pilots pay for the fuel because it makes good business sense?
Bullocks!!
Willie Everlearn
It's easy to see why they came to the sensible business solution - to use qualified pilots (from effectively sister companies) to operate flights. It makes business sense.
Sister companies? Actually, I think these businesses are quite separate and only associate on a "what can I gain financially by sleeping with you" arrangement. They couldn't giva ****e about pilots and where they come from.
Again, Canada has a significant number of qualified pilots who can easily fill the requirements of Sunwing or Canjet. I don't think we need to repeat this statement for you. We seem to agree.
It is easily understood by most Canadian pilots that hiring qualified pilots makes sense. It really does make good business sense. But the simple reality is that these carriers are hiring seasonally European pilots when it simply isn't necessary for any Canadian carrier at the moment. They're simply too lazy and too cheap to provide the type rating training.
Since the Canadian Government has seen fit to allow them to do so through flawed legislation that covers more appropriately 'seasonal crop workers' to pick fruits and vegetables (where there truly is a shortage of workers) it's certainly inappropriate considering the present situation in Canadian aviation. Until we have a shortage of qualified Canadian pilots, the foreigners can stay home. When that changes, we'll have little or no choice, come on over.
If it is a type rating you're using to separate the men from the boys, then I can tell you most operators over here with some exceptions actually train new hires through a type rating course. As for me personally, I won't self sponsor any type rating, I am qualified enough. So, what's next? Have the pilots pay for the fuel because it makes good business sense?
Bullocks!!
Willie Everlearn
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 12th May 2012 at 11:36.
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Well good luck guys... I think you will need it!
Utimitaly I think if you win, your victory will be short lived as I think it will mean less jobs for Canadians not more... Sunwing would fold if they had to employ pilots they don't need year round.
Utimitaly I think if you win, your victory will be short lived as I think it will mean less jobs for Canadians not more... Sunwing would fold if they had to employ pilots they don't need year round.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
Sunwing would fold if they had to employ pilots they don't need year round.
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Why do I get the feeling that a majority of the posters on this topic here and elsewhere are some frustrated King Air and Navajo drivers who feel they are entitled to a Boeing 737 job?
As PT6A says, "good luck."
As PT6A says, "good luck."
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Wonder how many qualified Canadian pilots working outside the country would consider a 'part-time' job back in Canada for the winter season. Let's see, a part time contract as a direct entry Captain back in Canada for the school year...kids go to an English school, don't have to commute back to see family..and this time next year, it's off to Europe for the summer and pick up a short term contract here. Doesn't sound too bad to me...and looks like a win win all the way around. How many do you think would consider this?
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PJ
I'm surprised by your remarks.
You're no doubt accurate to some degree in your suspicion that the "turbo prop" crowd are cheering this whole petition thing on but, whether or not there is a sense of entitlement among them should be of no consequence. Why wouldn't they, better yet, why should't they have some sense of entitlement?
The reality in Canada, as you well know, is that our home industry needs those jobs, full time or part time, for Canadian pilots. The next gen will undoubtedly and of necessity come from that same "turbo prop" crowd as they move up the ladder. If these operators are allowed to continue to use foreign talent then it directly affects our future by losing those opportunities which should allow these less experienced (but certainly qualified) pilots to gain the experience needed to sustain our airline industry in the future by moving them up that experience ladder.
I, for one, wouldn't like to see this use of foreign talent set a precedent moving forward. Certainly not in the manner in which these two named airlines are doing it based on ridiculous temporary worker legislation.
So why is it, as a fellow Canadian pilot, that you put it in such a condescending manner?
How did you get onto the Jet you fly today? I'm sure there is some turbo prop time in your past?
There is in mine.
Lo suyo es el futuro
Willie
I'm surprised by your remarks.
You're no doubt accurate to some degree in your suspicion that the "turbo prop" crowd are cheering this whole petition thing on but, whether or not there is a sense of entitlement among them should be of no consequence. Why wouldn't they, better yet, why should't they have some sense of entitlement?
The reality in Canada, as you well know, is that our home industry needs those jobs, full time or part time, for Canadian pilots. The next gen will undoubtedly and of necessity come from that same "turbo prop" crowd as they move up the ladder. If these operators are allowed to continue to use foreign talent then it directly affects our future by losing those opportunities which should allow these less experienced (but certainly qualified) pilots to gain the experience needed to sustain our airline industry in the future by moving them up that experience ladder.
I, for one, wouldn't like to see this use of foreign talent set a precedent moving forward. Certainly not in the manner in which these two named airlines are doing it based on ridiculous temporary worker legislation.
So why is it, as a fellow Canadian pilot, that you put it in such a condescending manner?
How did you get onto the Jet you fly today? I'm sure there is some turbo prop time in your past?
There is in mine.
Lo suyo es el futuro
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 12th May 2012 at 13:27.
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couple of things;
first of all, isn't the Harper gov't changing the rules about temporary workers so as to make this whole argument legally irrelevant?
Second of all, what Canjet/Sunwing are doing is in line with what all second rate, fly by night operators around the world are doing in terms of only hiring type rated, current pilots. Its part and parcel of what makes them fly by night, second rate operators. If they were top rate, they'd only hire full time pilots and train them. But they're not, hence they don't. I don't think petitions are the answer. I don't think there is an answer in this case. Its a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
first of all, isn't the Harper gov't changing the rules about temporary workers so as to make this whole argument legally irrelevant?
Second of all, what Canjet/Sunwing are doing is in line with what all second rate, fly by night operators around the world are doing in terms of only hiring type rated, current pilots. Its part and parcel of what makes them fly by night, second rate operators. If they were top rate, they'd only hire full time pilots and train them. But they're not, hence they don't. I don't think petitions are the answer. I don't think there is an answer in this case. Its a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
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No its supply and demand.
Why pay to train someone... When you can get a guy who is typed with time on type... Who is sat at home?
The airlines at the moment are doing everything they can to hang on... You guys are not looking further than the end of your own nose!
Why pay to train someone... When you can get a guy who is typed with time on type... Who is sat at home?
The airlines at the moment are doing everything they can to hang on... You guys are not looking further than the end of your own nose!
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PT6A,
How about we hire cheap physicians from Cuba to staff all Canadian hospitals ? No need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training Canadian doctors, that on top of it, we will have to pay 2 to 300K/year. It will certainly bring the cost of Healthcare down. I hear the Cuban doctors would gladly accept $1000/month if we offer room and board in some sort of camp. With globalization, and free trade and all, this is what the world is coming to and why fight it ? It's up to Canada, to compete, to be able to train doctors at the same cost the Cubans are capable training them, and it's up to Canada to be able to compete with the salaries of the Cuban Doctors. I mean, it's the Canadian Taxpayers that are taking the brunt of Healthcare in Canada. The salaries of physicians in Canada accounts for 15% of the country's health care expenditures. With about $195 Billion in health care expenditures per year, Canada spends about 29 Billion on physicians' salaries alone. We should send all our expensive Canadian physicians to work for high salaries, in Saudia Arabia, where they are popular and in high demand, and bring the cost of Health in Canada down by importing cheap Cuban physicians.
Of course, the presence of all the Cuban doctors in Canada will increase the actual net number of jobs since all security guards, receptionists, administrative employees and nurses will still be Canadian, and with the money we will save by having Cuban doctors instead of Canadian ones, we will be able to open more hospitals in smaller towns where none could be afforded beforehand, and in these small towns we will hire more Canadian staff for these new hospitals. All the $12/hour employees in these new hospitals will be in favor of the Cuban doctors of course.....
I'm certain you agree with all I wrote here, right ?
How about we hire cheap physicians from Cuba to staff all Canadian hospitals ? No need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training Canadian doctors, that on top of it, we will have to pay 2 to 300K/year. It will certainly bring the cost of Healthcare down. I hear the Cuban doctors would gladly accept $1000/month if we offer room and board in some sort of camp. With globalization, and free trade and all, this is what the world is coming to and why fight it ? It's up to Canada, to compete, to be able to train doctors at the same cost the Cubans are capable training them, and it's up to Canada to be able to compete with the salaries of the Cuban Doctors. I mean, it's the Canadian Taxpayers that are taking the brunt of Healthcare in Canada. The salaries of physicians in Canada accounts for 15% of the country's health care expenditures. With about $195 Billion in health care expenditures per year, Canada spends about 29 Billion on physicians' salaries alone. We should send all our expensive Canadian physicians to work for high salaries, in Saudia Arabia, where they are popular and in high demand, and bring the cost of Health in Canada down by importing cheap Cuban physicians.
Of course, the presence of all the Cuban doctors in Canada will increase the actual net number of jobs since all security guards, receptionists, administrative employees and nurses will still be Canadian, and with the money we will save by having Cuban doctors instead of Canadian ones, we will be able to open more hospitals in smaller towns where none could be afforded beforehand, and in these small towns we will hire more Canadian staff for these new hospitals. All the $12/hour employees in these new hospitals will be in favor of the Cuban doctors of course.....
I'm certain you agree with all I wrote here, right ?
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 16th May 2012 at 20:16.
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Canada already does import medical staff... they actually fast track their applications.
Calgary Police are also always in the paper overseas to recruit police officers.
So what you talk about is already been going on for years.
Calgary Police are also always in the paper overseas to recruit police officers.
So what you talk about is already been going on for years.
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Damn Minorite,
You should work for the government. You'd save Canadian taxpayers a tonne (metric).
Though I know you're severely tongue in cheek, how about making doctors in canada actually pay for the cost of their training as pilots do? then open up as many training spots as possible, as for pilots, and let the best doctors compete for the jobs?
You should work for the government. You'd save Canadian taxpayers a tonne (metric).
Though I know you're severely tongue in cheek, how about making doctors in canada actually pay for the cost of their training as pilots do? then open up as many training spots as possible, as for pilots, and let the best doctors compete for the jobs?