Foreign Pilot Petition
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Foreign Pilot Petition
Petition Foreign pilots working on temporary work permits in Canada
Please read the petition and sign if you agree. Note, you do not need to donate money if you do not want.
Please read the petition and sign if you agree. Note, you do not need to donate money if you do not want.
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What the **** are you talking about my friend? The world is becoming smaller..didn't you realize yet or may be in your farm in the woods you don't get the news? Wake up! There is plenty of Canadian abroad....so?
Whilst not unsympathetic to your plight, I have to say that the reply by Jetaim is correct. We might not like it, but that's the way the world is.
No I am not Canadian, I am Australian, and we have a situation here where almost (but thankfully not all) every operator requires a type, and where some even have the audacity to advertise overseas that they can arrange working visas.
This therefore suggests that the statement in the petition that it is
is incorrect.
We may not like the push by airline managers to abrogate their training (or at least type-rating) costs, but that is the way of the world.
Despite that, I have to say that the many pilots I have worked with from the UK, US, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada (plus others) are all fine aviators who just get on with the job. For every foreign pilot working in Canada, there are probably 5 Canucks working overseas.
No I am not Canadian, I am Australian, and we have a situation here where almost (but thankfully not all) every operator requires a type, and where some even have the audacity to advertise overseas that they can arrange working visas.
This therefore suggests that the statement in the petition that it is
unique in any G-20 Nation
We may not like the push by airline managers to abrogate their training (or at least type-rating) costs, but that is the way of the world.
Despite that, I have to say that the many pilots I have worked with from the UK, US, New Zealand, South Africa and Canada (plus others) are all fine aviators who just get on with the job. For every foreign pilot working in Canada, there are probably 5 Canucks working overseas.
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Canadian pilots working overseas fill a void where the locals are not numerous enough (UAE, Qatar) or do not meet the experience level required (China,South Korea). When the numbers or experience level will match the needs, the Canadians (and other expats) will be out.
No Canadian can go to Europe, the US, Aus or South America and get a job. If there would be reciprocity, it would probably work. But there is none. In the mean time, the Canadian gov should look after the well being (employability) of its citizens by not allowing outside pilots in as long as there are experienced pilots at home. Requiring a TR should not be used as a way around that.
Canadian citizens should not bear the consequences of globalization without getting any benefits from it.
No Canadian can go to Europe, the US, Aus or South America and get a job. If there would be reciprocity, it would probably work. But there is none. In the mean time, the Canadian gov should look after the well being (employability) of its citizens by not allowing outside pilots in as long as there are experienced pilots at home. Requiring a TR should not be used as a way around that.
Canadian citizens should not bear the consequences of globalization without getting any benefits from it.
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replace the word CANADIAN by almost any other NATIONALITY and it will fit the same way.
BTW, I totally agree with the statement
And just because GERMANY is mentioned in the petition so often:
I know about many foreign pilots working in German airlines in a permanent position, with all the social and unions rights, at the same time hundreds of higly qualified German pilots are forced to work abroad just as "slaves" on a hire and fire base. Without having any rights etc etc....can you explain?
At the end of the day all expat pilots around this crazy world are in the same sh.... situation. But doing a petition? 
This is one side of globalisation, the politicians always talk about
BTW, I totally agree with the statement
...If there would be reciprocity, it would probably work. But there is none...
I know about many foreign pilots working in German airlines in a permanent position, with all the social and unions rights, at the same time hundreds of higly qualified German pilots are forced to work abroad just as "slaves" on a hire and fire base. Without having any rights etc etc....can you explain?
At the end of the day all expat pilots around this crazy world are in the same sh..
.. situation. But doing a petition? This is one side of globalisation, the politicians always talk about
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Sunwing is going from 6-8 aircraft in the summerr to 22 in the winter, then back to 8. So those 200 canadian pilots would be layed of again.
TUIfly offered a reasonable amount of canadian F/Oīs a position but needed those pilots in April. Due to Sunwing`s own demand those F/oīs could not be spared,the deal didnīt materialize, so no reciprocity.
No other carrier has such a great capacity fluctuation.
TUIfly offered a reasonable amount of canadian F/Oīs a position but needed those pilots in April. Due to Sunwing`s own demand those F/oīs could not be spared,the deal didnīt materialize, so no reciprocity.
No other carrier has such a great capacity fluctuation.
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You have not done your homework before drawing up that petition....
Canada entered into a bilateral agreement that allows the operation which Sunwing conduct, it was Sunwings fault that the Canadian pilots did not get to go and fly in Europe.
Because of the agrement that Canada entered into a LMO is not required for the pilots joining Sunwing.
If you force Sunwing too hard it may result in less jobs for Canadians... not more.
For the record, airlines in Germany employ pilots from many other countries (Your artical makes out they only employ German Nationals)
Ryan Air, Aer Arann, Wizz Air, and im sure others did or do hire type rated pilots from overseas (So again it is a false statment to say that no other memeber of the G20 will hire a non national)
Canada entered into a bilateral agreement that allows the operation which Sunwing conduct, it was Sunwings fault that the Canadian pilots did not get to go and fly in Europe.
Because of the agrement that Canada entered into a LMO is not required for the pilots joining Sunwing.
If you force Sunwing too hard it may result in less jobs for Canadians... not more.
For the record, airlines in Germany employ pilots from many other countries (Your artical makes out they only employ German Nationals)
Ryan Air, Aer Arann, Wizz Air, and im sure others did or do hire type rated pilots from overseas (So again it is a false statment to say that no other memeber of the G20 will hire a non national)
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We send about 30 of those pilots over to canada during winter, last winter to sunwings, the winters before to canjet. The mix of pilots that went to canada was pretty varied, there were canadians, us citizens, turks, argentinians and of course a few germans as well as some other nationalities. All those have a permanent position in germany with a non-tui airline.
Would we have taken in canadians as well? Why not, we have taken on temporary pilots from other companies like lufthansa, tuifly and so on as well, however FO positions only. And of course for a temporary contract we wouldn't rate anyone, type rating and experience on type is required. However there was simply no demand at all from the canadian side.
Would we have taken in canadians as well? Why not, we have taken on temporary pilots from other companies like lufthansa, tuifly and so on as well, however FO positions only. And of course for a temporary contract we wouldn't rate anyone, type rating and experience on type is required. However there was simply no demand at all from the canadian side.
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As one of the thousands of Canadians working on heavy jets oversea's I think you need to buy a clue. I've worked all over Europe on EU reg jets (on very flimsy validations) and throughout Asia, and even in the US on a contract.
The world is a single market place. There is no room for national protectionism
The world is a single market place. There is no room for national protectionism
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Canadians love protectionism, so long as if favors them. Just look at their position on Emirates having more access.
They're also in favor of government intervention, so long as it benefits them.
AC folks love the intervention when it keeps EK out, hate it when it stops them from striking.
For the record, I am Canadian, and we had an Aussie pilot working at my first turboprop airline. One. Not a big deal.
They're also in favor of government intervention, so long as it benefits them.
AC folks love the intervention when it keeps EK out, hate it when it stops them from striking.
For the record, I am Canadian, and we had an Aussie pilot working at my first turboprop airline. One. Not a big deal.
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Some people who have posted comments here did not understand the issue.
First of all, this whole affair concerns only foreign pilots who come to work to Canada on TEMPORARY short term contracts, 4, 5 or 6 months and who work in Canada with a validated Foreign licence. It does NOT concern foreign pilots who are hired by a Canadian airline on a full time basis with a Canadian Landed Immigrant Permit and who obtain Transport Canada licences.
The Temporary Foreign pilots who came to work in Canada at Sunwing or Canjet came under one of two Immigration regulations.
The first is the reciprocity rule. It states that Foreigners can come and work in Canada if an equal number of Canadian pilots go to work overseas as a result. The technical term they use is "must have a zero labour impact". The idea is that 50 European pilots would come to Canada in Winter, which would allow 50 Canadian pilots go work to Europe in the Summer. It seems that this rule was not respected by the Canadian airlines involved and that the number of foreign pilots who came to work in Canada under this rule far exceeded the number of Canadians who went to work overseas as a result. There are even rumors that the new EASA licencing regulations will exacerbate this problem although I do not know if this is true.
The second Immigration rule under which some temporary foreign pilots came to work in Canada was the Labour Market Opinion (LMO) rule. That rule requires the Canadian employer prove to HRSDC (a Labour Ministry in Canada) that there is a shortage of qualified pilots in Canada, after which which HRSDC authorizes Immigration Canada to provide x number of foreign pilots with temporary work visas. The way they have done this is to advertise short term contracts requiring that applicants be Type-Rated and current on the Boeing 737NG. When no pilots filling the requirements applied, HRSDC issued an LMO authorizing Immigration Canada to issue temporary work permits to foreigners to fill in the void.
Take that situation as seen by a Canadian 15,000 hour, ex-Boeing 757 Captain with defunct Skyservice who has been out of a job and who lives in Toronto where the temp job is based. He is not allowed to apply because Sunwing does not want to train him on the 737NG to SAVE MONEY.
The LMO rule is not meant to be used to allow airlines to SAVE MONEY by not having to pay for Type-ratings, but to fill a genuine labour shortage. The fact that pilots like this un-employed highly experienced 757 captain exist prove that there is no labour shortage for pilots in Canada.
So the real reason Sunwing is requesting LMOs from HRSDC for temporary foreign pilots is to save money on training. If they are allowed to do this, all other airlines will be able to claim the same (Type-ratings) to justify hiring foreigners that are already Type-rated on the aircraft they fly. If that is allowed, there will no longer be any Canadians flying for any Canadian airline in the country.
That is why all major pilot unions in Canada (ACPA, ALPA, Westjet's pilot's association, even Sunwing's) and most airlines in Canada (excluding Sunwing) oppose this practice and support the spirit of the petition.
First of all, this whole affair concerns only foreign pilots who come to work to Canada on TEMPORARY short term contracts, 4, 5 or 6 months and who work in Canada with a validated Foreign licence. It does NOT concern foreign pilots who are hired by a Canadian airline on a full time basis with a Canadian Landed Immigrant Permit and who obtain Transport Canada licences.
The Temporary Foreign pilots who came to work in Canada at Sunwing or Canjet came under one of two Immigration regulations.
The first is the reciprocity rule. It states that Foreigners can come and work in Canada if an equal number of Canadian pilots go to work overseas as a result. The technical term they use is "must have a zero labour impact". The idea is that 50 European pilots would come to Canada in Winter, which would allow 50 Canadian pilots go work to Europe in the Summer. It seems that this rule was not respected by the Canadian airlines involved and that the number of foreign pilots who came to work in Canada under this rule far exceeded the number of Canadians who went to work overseas as a result. There are even rumors that the new EASA licencing regulations will exacerbate this problem although I do not know if this is true.
The second Immigration rule under which some temporary foreign pilots came to work in Canada was the Labour Market Opinion (LMO) rule. That rule requires the Canadian employer prove to HRSDC (a Labour Ministry in Canada) that there is a shortage of qualified pilots in Canada, after which which HRSDC authorizes Immigration Canada to provide x number of foreign pilots with temporary work visas. The way they have done this is to advertise short term contracts requiring that applicants be Type-Rated and current on the Boeing 737NG. When no pilots filling the requirements applied, HRSDC issued an LMO authorizing Immigration Canada to issue temporary work permits to foreigners to fill in the void.
Take that situation as seen by a Canadian 15,000 hour, ex-Boeing 757 Captain with defunct Skyservice who has been out of a job and who lives in Toronto where the temp job is based. He is not allowed to apply because Sunwing does not want to train him on the 737NG to SAVE MONEY.
The LMO rule is not meant to be used to allow airlines to SAVE MONEY by not having to pay for Type-ratings, but to fill a genuine labour shortage. The fact that pilots like this un-employed highly experienced 757 captain exist prove that there is no labour shortage for pilots in Canada.
So the real reason Sunwing is requesting LMOs from HRSDC for temporary foreign pilots is to save money on training. If they are allowed to do this, all other airlines will be able to claim the same (Type-ratings) to justify hiring foreigners that are already Type-rated on the aircraft they fly. If that is allowed, there will no longer be any Canadians flying for any Canadian airline in the country.
That is why all major pilot unions in Canada (ACPA, ALPA, Westjet's pilot's association, even Sunwing's) and most airlines in Canada (excluding Sunwing) oppose this practice and support the spirit of the petition.
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 9th May 2012 at 13:40.
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B757 captain should get off his as* as there
are tonnes of jobs for him world wide.
No excuse for his being unemployed other than
his own lack of effort or will.
are tonnes of jobs for him world wide.
No excuse for his being unemployed other than
his own lack of effort or will.
Last edited by AAIGUY; 10th May 2012 at 03:29.
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You talk about jobs in Canada? If TUI, who ownes 49% of Sunwing hadnīt injected money a few years ago, who knows if SWG were there at all?
Then, of course, the Eouropean money was welcome, right? Nobody in Canada complained and said: Letīs rather invest that money to create European jobs!
Then, of course, the Eouropean money was welcome, right? Nobody in Canada complained and said: Letīs rather invest that money to create European jobs!
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Some guys have been flying water bombers for years, which is seasonal summer work. Many go on unemployment insurance every winter, paid for by HRSDC, the same Ministry that delivers the LMOs to the foreign pilots.
So while HRSDC pays UI to qualified Canadian pilots in the winter, it delivers LMOs for foreign pilots to come and work in Canada in the winter. These temporary foreign pilots pay zero taxes in Canada. Some of these water bomber pilots have signed the petition and stated that this seasonal 737 winter job would be ideal for them, if they were given the chance to apply. They would keep both seasonal jobs.
Wouldn't it make more sense for HRSDC to stop paying UI to the water bomber pilots in winter and letting them apply for the 737 jobs ?
So while HRSDC pays UI to qualified Canadian pilots in the winter, it delivers LMOs for foreign pilots to come and work in Canada in the winter. These temporary foreign pilots pay zero taxes in Canada. Some of these water bomber pilots have signed the petition and stated that this seasonal 737 winter job would be ideal for them, if they were given the chance to apply. They would keep both seasonal jobs.
Wouldn't it make more sense for HRSDC to stop paying UI to the water bomber pilots in winter and letting them apply for the 737 jobs ?
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The European pilots coming to fly for Sunwing are exempt from the LMO, as I pointed out above.
The European pilots coming to fly for Sunwing are exempt from the LMO, as I pointed out above.
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KingAir, my parents re-located to Canada 5 years ago and got their permanent residency granted. I also got it as well, as I was under 21, so was on their visa. However, I was born and raised in England and still live here, so would you object to someone like me coming to work in Canada even though I have every right to?
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
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Originally Posted by PT6A
The European pilots coming to fly for Sunwing are exempt from the LMO, as I pointed out above.
1) The majority come under the reciprocity scheme, which requires no LMOs but requires that an equal number of Canadian pilots go work overseas in exchange, and that is an Immigration Canada requirement.
2) Some pilots came under LMOs
They also Wet-Lease foreign aircraft which is a third method.
Do you really think that German airlines like Air Berlin or Lufthansa hire non-EU residents and non-EASA licence holders as pilots? If yes, produce just one please. I'd love to hear about him/her.
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 10th May 2012 at 12:40.
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Sunwing is not "hiring" these pilots they are there on a temporary basis.
If it was not for EU money... Sunwing would not be employing any Canadians full stop.
If it was not for EU money... Sunwing would not be employing any Canadians full stop.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
Sunwing is not "hiring" these pilots they are there on a temporary basis.
If it was not for EU money... Sunwing would not be employing any Canadians full stop.
If it was not for EU money... Sunwing would not be employing any Canadians full stop.
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 10th May 2012 at 13:40.