Air Canada Age 60 Limit To End
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mandatory retirement has been ruled age discrimination which is illegal in this country. It is a fact of life today and it will not simply disappear because some people don't like it. If some people object so strongly that they are incapable of maintaining a professional attitude with this new reality I respectfully suggest they should find another line of work.
You see, I agree with you that extreme personal conflict is not acceptable in the cockpit, but who do you think is going to have to adapt here? People exercising their rights or people who cannot let go of the past?
You see, I agree with you that extreme personal conflict is not acceptable in the cockpit, but who do you think is going to have to adapt here? People exercising their rights or people who cannot let go of the past?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know how you figure both need to adapt. Mandatory age related retirement is as outdated and illegal now as restricting hiring to people under a certain age used to be. If someone senior to me chooses to stay beyond 60 that is their right and their choice. They have no legal, moral or ethical responsibility to vacate their seat at age 60 so that I can have it.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear, by the tone of your reply I can see that the "Twitcell" bid might just be needed, there are no right and wrong here, just two sides of a coin, sugest BOTH sides give and take a bit to avoid both unpleasent cockpit relations, or in the worst case a smoking hole. The last pilot I flew with who was always "right", took over a hundred pax to their deaths on a clear day, new airplane, no wind, long runway, many of us saw it coming.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Compared to the forced marriage 7 years ago, ( now that was downright dangerous IMO ) integrating Age 60 will be a cake walk.
I have to believe the average Air Canada pilot has a functioning brain with which to think from and it doesn't take a genius to see the writing on the wall on this issue.
Sure, we have a small minority of babies who are still suckling mama who can't see the light, but even they will soon learn the teat has run dry.
Forced mandatory retirement is not only cruel and inhumane for someone who isn't ready to retire, it will soon be illegal. The majority of the world understands that fact, every legal jurisdiction in Canada understands that fact. Soon even ACPA will be forced to understand that fact. And it can't happen soon enough. It's high time this baby was put to bed once and for all.
MTK
I have to believe the average Air Canada pilot has a functioning brain with which to think from and it doesn't take a genius to see the writing on the wall on this issue.
Sure, we have a small minority of babies who are still suckling mama who can't see the light, but even they will soon learn the teat has run dry.
Forced mandatory retirement is not only cruel and inhumane for someone who isn't ready to retire, it will soon be illegal. The majority of the world understands that fact, every legal jurisdiction in Canada understands that fact. Soon even ACPA will be forced to understand that fact. And it can't happen soon enough. It's high time this baby was put to bed once and for all.
MTK
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear, by the tone of your reply I can see that the "Twitcell" bid might just be needed, there are no right and wrong here, just two sides of a coin, sugest BOTH sides give and take a bit to avoid both unpleasent cockpit relations, or in the worst case a smoking hole. The last pilot I flew with who was always "right", took over a hundred pax to their deaths on a clear day, new airplane, no wind, long runway, many of us saw it coming.
This is just another adaptation and evolution that pilots older than 60 do not need to apologize for. This is for younger pilots to get used to...period. Any problem in the F/D because of this is their problem to deal with or don't show up for work.
Personally, I will not be twitchel bidding because I am quite happy to fly with someone over 60.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mack, I stand by my previous post, and you are right about the mess that went on during the merger, I had the good fortune to be gone by then, but did observe some bloody stupid behavior in our comunity as a result of it, give and take will be required boys and girls if this stuff is not to be repeated , lets hope cool heads take charge.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We dare to call ourselves professionals. To me that means we need to act like professionals, and I hold no one to a higher standard in that regard than myself.
If a person is unable to work with someone who is black, female, Hindu, disabled...or 61 years old...then that person has no business being in the FD or calling themselves professional.
It is as simple as that.
Get over it.
If a person is unable to work with someone who is black, female, Hindu, disabled...or 61 years old...then that person has no business being in the FD or calling themselves professional.
It is as simple as that.
Get over it.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eng Left Fire, you talk about change being inevitable and then use the analogy of allowing women and older pilots in the flight deck. This is not an accurate comparison to what is happening now. All of the above had absolutely NO repercussions on the people who were ALREADY at A/C. Guys staying past 60 will. It will stagnate an already stagnant situation and could easily lead to layoffs. Some how allowing women or visible minorities to become new hires just doesn't compare.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course they compare. Hiring females, minorities and people older than a certain age took jobs away from young white guys thereby delaying the date they got hired at Air Canada. That sounds like career stagnation to me. And here is the big thing...forced retirement is now considered discrimination throughout Canada just like those other things and therefore illegal. Get it?
Mandatory retirement = discrimination = illegal
Do you think Air Canada pilots live in a bubble where Canadian discrimination laws do not apply?
By the way, could you currently hold a higher paying position but choose not to for lifestyle? If you do it's no big deal and you're just like the majority of Air Canada's pilots. But you can't then complain about your career being stalled can you?
Mandatory retirement = discrimination = illegal
Do you think Air Canada pilots live in a bubble where Canadian discrimination laws do not apply?
By the way, could you currently hold a higher paying position but choose not to for lifestyle? If you do it's no big deal and you're just like the majority of Air Canada's pilots. But you can't then complain about your career being stalled can you?
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bcflyer, is it your opinion that a pilot who holds a class 1 medical and passes all recurrent flight checks should be arbitrarily forced to quit flying at age 60?
My most productive years as a full time working pilot were from age 60 to 70 and I retired because I wanted to.
Incidentally when I retired I held a current airdisplay authority in Europe and was still flying in the air show circuit in Europe.
Am I to understand that in your opinion I would not have qualified to fly for Air Canada just because I was over 60?
My most productive years as a full time working pilot were from age 60 to 70 and I retired because I wanted to.
Incidentally when I retired I held a current airdisplay authority in Europe and was still flying in the air show circuit in Europe.
Am I to understand that in your opinion I would not have qualified to fly for Air Canada just because I was over 60?
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Enginefireleft, you must have a screw loose. How can you compare discrimination against certain specific groups like race or females and a bunch of others to what your group is defending? You really think that those are same? Age 60 applies to EVERYONE! It's not targeted towards a specific group. If you want to come back so bad, why not ask to come back as an EMJ FO in the PG. Give up your seat so that somebody else can enjoy it. See how you do doing 4 legs or more a day. I'll vote yes on that! 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck, fly if you want just not here. Those people enjoyed their current lifestyle and equipment because pilots before them were gracious enough to respect the contract and retired at 60. Why wait until you are just about to leave to fight age 60? Why didn't you start the fight sooner? Give it up and let someone else have a shot at the top. Greedy
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Enginefireleft, you must have a screw loose. How can you compare discrimination against certain specific groups like race or females and a bunch of others to what your group is defending? You really think that those are same? Age 60 applies to EVERYONE! It's not targeted towards a specific group. If you want to come back so bad, why not ask to come back as an EMJ FO in the PG. Give up your seat so that somebody else can enjoy it. See how you do doing 4 legs or more a day. I'll vote yes on that!
Chuck, fly if you want just not here. Those people enjoyed their current lifestyle and equipment because pilots before them were gracious enough to respect the contract and retired at 60. Why wait until you are just about to leave to fight age 60? Why didn't you start the fight sooner? Give it up and let someone else have a shot at the top. Greedy
You're making some mistaken assumptions here. First of all, Chuck has never worked for Air Canada. He is simply making the point that forced retirement at age 60 is arbitrary and not associated in any way with medical fitness or competency. Second. I do work for Air Canada, but am not near retirement yet. So it's not a case of me wanting to come back.
Every pilot at Air Canada is discriminated against on their 60th birthday when they are forced to retire. It is discrimination against a group based on age which is illegal. Look it up.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Engine Left, You missed my point completely.. Please explain how hiring women (just one example) affected the pilots who were ALREADY at Air Canada? They would be new hires and would be placed BEHIND anyone ALREADY at Air Canada. People coming back or staying longer directly affects the pilots ALREADY at Air Canada. Not even close to the same. Since you seem to be concerned those poor white single guys who aren't at Air Canada yet, what exactly do you think will happen to their careers when pilots at Air Canada start staying to 65 or beyond?
As for people bidding positions for lifestyle as opposed to for money, It is each individuals CHOICE to bid what they want. Some want to be home more, some want more money. That is their CHOICE. People coming BACK to Air Canada or staying longer effectively removes or at least delays that CHOICE.
Chuck this has nothing to do with whether or not I feel someone over 60 is qualified to fly the plane. This entire thing is about greed. Pure and simple. As has been mentioned over and over, none of the compaintants said a peep about wanting to fly till they die until they reaped the full benefits of everyone in front of them leaving at 60. Now they want to deny their fellow pilots the same opportunities they had under the guise of "age discrimination" (I am well aware of the fact that they couldn't file a complaint till they retired, but I don't recall any of them supporting those that tried this ploy before them. After all, then they wouldn't have advanced to where they did would they...) If I could retire right now and make $100,000a year or more (thats the size of the pension the poor disciminated against pilots are making) I would be gone so fast it would make your head spin!!!
As for people bidding positions for lifestyle as opposed to for money, It is each individuals CHOICE to bid what they want. Some want to be home more, some want more money. That is their CHOICE. People coming BACK to Air Canada or staying longer effectively removes or at least delays that CHOICE.
Chuck this has nothing to do with whether or not I feel someone over 60 is qualified to fly the plane. This entire thing is about greed. Pure and simple. As has been mentioned over and over, none of the compaintants said a peep about wanting to fly till they die until they reaped the full benefits of everyone in front of them leaving at 60. Now they want to deny their fellow pilots the same opportunities they had under the guise of "age discrimination" (I am well aware of the fact that they couldn't file a complaint till they retired, but I don't recall any of them supporting those that tried this ploy before them. After all, then they wouldn't have advanced to where they did would they...) If I could retire right now and make $100,000a year or more (thats the size of the pension the poor disciminated against pilots are making) I would be gone so fast it would make your head spin!!!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One last point before I head out and enjoy the sun. If mandatory retirement = age discrimination = illegal, why is it still practiced at the federal level?
What makes your choice to delay your career more important than the choice of someone to stay beyond 60? Especially when it's their right to do so. Who's being selfish and greedy here? You think it's your right to force someone out of a job so that when you feel like it you can have their seat. Your sense of entitlement is astonishing.
If I could retire right now and make $100,000a year or more (thats the size of the pension the poor disciminated against pilots are making)
Last edited by engfireleft; 9th Jul 2010 at 17:49.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Age: 74
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I could retire right now and make $100,000 a year or more (thats the size of the pension the poor discriminated against pilots are making) I would be gone so fast it would make your head spin!!!
Your suggestion also leads to a simple solution to accommodate the impending changes to your collective agreement--namely, create an incentive for some to leave early. The number one reason why pilots don't retire early, despite the fact that they would gladly pursue other options, is that they don't want to take a huge penalty for doing so. Absent the penalty, there would be many more early retirements and far less career stagnation for the junior pilots currently most adversely affected by the removal of the mandatory retirement restriction.
By the way, the evidence before the Tribunal was that one of the two complainants who is about to be reinstated is currently receiving an annual pension of less than 70% of the amount that you refer to above. May I apologize to you if I refer you to facts, rather than assumptions...
Last edited by Raymond767; 9th Jul 2010 at 20:59.