Possible Bad news for Sunwing
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What constitutes switching to a "major airline"?
Southwest has 500+ aircraft, carries more domestic passengers in the single largest aviation market in the world than anyone else and flew 70% more ASM's than the largest airline in Canada. Is it a "major airline"?
WJA is a low cost carrier. There is nothing occuring that is changing that proposition. The reason WJ has the margins it has with the fares offered is because of the low costs.
Anyone can match the fares, and they do. The results are evident in the margins achieved as a result of matching the fares.
Southwest has 500+ aircraft, carries more domestic passengers in the single largest aviation market in the world than anyone else and flew 70% more ASM's than the largest airline in Canada. Is it a "major airline"?
WJA is a low cost carrier. There is nothing occuring that is changing that proposition. The reason WJ has the margins it has with the fares offered is because of the low costs.
Anyone can match the fares, and they do. The results are evident in the margins achieved as a result of matching the fares.
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So, I conclude the reference to WJ as a "major carrier" is merely a slip of the tongue.
Let's put it this way. United Airlines is a Flag Carrier and Southwest isn't.
Air Canada is a Flag Carrier and West Jet isn't. Despite the number of aircraft in eithers' fleet and despite the number of revenue kilometers flown or revenue passenger kilometers.
...or is it strictly margin?
In the final analysis, WJA is strong, viable, and here for the long term.
Depending upon a few factors, of course. Do they change their goals? Do they change their reason for being? Do they modify their original business plan. Does fuel price go through the roof? Do people all of a sudden realise they're getting charged the same price for a ticket to Lethbridge as AC despite who follows whos lead?
For me, these are some of the things I think 'might' happen to WJ as the original leadership cashes in and moves on. (I've noticed a number have left recently, haven't you?) If it does then I DO think WJA could be in for a demise.
That's only an opinion.
If the brain trust at WJ leave to start a 'competitor' company knowing what they know, how is that going to impact WJ?
Again, I could be so far off the mark, it isn't even funny. (let's hope so cuz I have a lot of former colleagues at WJ)
I think as well, this running commentary on WJ is off topic. Because I made reference in a previous post (seemingly, to someones' disgust) it seems to have touched a nerve. (How dare I speak of WJ in such a manner?) TFB. This is an opinion based forum. Deal with it.
Let's put it this way. United Airlines is a Flag Carrier and Southwest isn't.
Air Canada is a Flag Carrier and West Jet isn't. Despite the number of aircraft in eithers' fleet and despite the number of revenue kilometers flown or revenue passenger kilometers.
...or is it strictly margin?
In the final analysis, WJA is strong, viable, and here for the long term.
Depending upon a few factors, of course. Do they change their goals? Do they change their reason for being? Do they modify their original business plan. Does fuel price go through the roof? Do people all of a sudden realise they're getting charged the same price for a ticket to Lethbridge as AC despite who follows whos lead?
For me, these are some of the things I think 'might' happen to WJ as the original leadership cashes in and moves on. (I've noticed a number have left recently, haven't you?) If it does then I DO think WJA could be in for a demise.
That's only an opinion.
If the brain trust at WJ leave to start a 'competitor' company knowing what they know, how is that going to impact WJ?
Again, I could be so far off the mark, it isn't even funny. (let's hope so cuz I have a lot of former colleagues at WJ)
I think as well, this running commentary on WJ is off topic. Because I made reference in a previous post (seemingly, to someones' disgust) it seems to have touched a nerve. (How dare I speak of WJ in such a manner?) TFB. This is an opinion based forum. Deal with it.
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 16th Sep 2008 at 02:28.
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Pardes:
XL's problems was nothing new. There was no surprise as far as Sunwing having a contingency plan. I am guessing Sunwing decided it would be unwise to put all eggs in the same basket considering the current economic climate in Europe and the state of the aviation industry in general, and was therefore already in talks with other European tour operators long before XL shut down.
As for "diversifying", Sunwing is to the best of my knowledge not altering its course or venturing into new and uncharted territories as far as flying goes. They have simply alligned themselves with new partners in terms of aircraft and crewing. This will ensure enough A/C and crew is in place this winter and allow allocating of redundant A/C and crew during the off season.
XL's problems was nothing new. There was no surprise as far as Sunwing having a contingency plan. I am guessing Sunwing decided it would be unwise to put all eggs in the same basket considering the current economic climate in Europe and the state of the aviation industry in general, and was therefore already in talks with other European tour operators long before XL shut down.
As for "diversifying", Sunwing is to the best of my knowledge not altering its course or venturing into new and uncharted territories as far as flying goes. They have simply alligned themselves with new partners in terms of aircraft and crewing. This will ensure enough A/C and crew is in place this winter and allow allocating of redundant A/C and crew during the off season.
As for "diversifying", Sunwing is to the best of my knowledge not altering its course or venturing into new and uncharted territories as far as flying goes.
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J.O:
I can appreciate where you are coming from and do agree to a certain extent. 3 of my last 5 employers are no more, and I have first hand experience in seeing, how fast everything can go from appearing to be rosy red to lining up at the unemployment office. At this point I consider my self lucky every day I get up to find my self employed. That said..... Sunwing are using alot more airplanes this winter, sure. But it is not an expansion in a traditional airline sense. There are some new destinations, but I am pretty sure alot of the extra flying is due to incerased frequency to certain destinations. This would be based on package sales over the last few 6 - 12 months. Sunwing would have a pretty good idea of how many seats it will need to accomodate package sales in advance. That woulod govern how many crews and airplanes will be needed. I doubt they decided to double the fleet and hope for the best from the sales department.
On a different note it is nice to see oil closing below $100 again! I think XL and any other european vacation airline really felt the pain of increasing fuel prices in the spring early summer. In short, fuel prices jumped almost 50% just as the peak seson kicked in for the European vacation companies, while most packages where based on alot cheaper fuel. The Canadian vacation airlines might luck out a bit here as long as we do not see a nother dramatic jump in prices. I would venture to guess alot of package sales where based on $140 - 150 a barrel and now the prices have dropped. Lets hope they stay there for a while, for the sake of everyone in the aviation industry!!
RB
I can appreciate where you are coming from and do agree to a certain extent. 3 of my last 5 employers are no more, and I have first hand experience in seeing, how fast everything can go from appearing to be rosy red to lining up at the unemployment office. At this point I consider my self lucky every day I get up to find my self employed. That said..... Sunwing are using alot more airplanes this winter, sure. But it is not an expansion in a traditional airline sense. There are some new destinations, but I am pretty sure alot of the extra flying is due to incerased frequency to certain destinations. This would be based on package sales over the last few 6 - 12 months. Sunwing would have a pretty good idea of how many seats it will need to accomodate package sales in advance. That woulod govern how many crews and airplanes will be needed. I doubt they decided to double the fleet and hope for the best from the sales department.
On a different note it is nice to see oil closing below $100 again! I think XL and any other european vacation airline really felt the pain of increasing fuel prices in the spring early summer. In short, fuel prices jumped almost 50% just as the peak seson kicked in for the European vacation companies, while most packages where based on alot cheaper fuel. The Canadian vacation airlines might luck out a bit here as long as we do not see a nother dramatic jump in prices. I would venture to guess alot of package sales where based on $140 - 150 a barrel and now the prices have dropped. Lets hope they stay there for a while, for the sake of everyone in the aviation industry!!
RB
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JO -
Good arguments, but not really accurate.
Sunwing has not suddenly expanded by 50%. If you go back and look at the past 5 years of the tour company, you will see a massive list of other operator's chartered to fly for Sunwing.
This includes JetsGo, Flair, Kelowna Flightcraft, North American Airlines, Excel, Zoom, and the list goes on. In fact, even in the last year Sunwing has used Zoom, Flair, and AeroMexico.
All they are doing is utilizing their own airplanes on well-established routes. The amount of wet-leasing this year is dramatically lower than in years past, which is much more cost-effective than paying through the teeth to another airline.
In fact, what they are doing is lowering their costs as I see it.
Yes, they have expanded. However, looking at the fact that they will have 15 airplanes this year as opposed to 7 or whatever it was before is not the whole story.
Just my $.02.
Good arguments, but not really accurate.
Sunwing has not suddenly expanded by 50%. If you go back and look at the past 5 years of the tour company, you will see a massive list of other operator's chartered to fly for Sunwing.
This includes JetsGo, Flair, Kelowna Flightcraft, North American Airlines, Excel, Zoom, and the list goes on. In fact, even in the last year Sunwing has used Zoom, Flair, and AeroMexico.
All they are doing is utilizing their own airplanes on well-established routes. The amount of wet-leasing this year is dramatically lower than in years past, which is much more cost-effective than paying through the teeth to another airline.
In fact, what they are doing is lowering their costs as I see it.
Yes, they have expanded. However, looking at the fact that they will have 15 airplanes this year as opposed to 7 or whatever it was before is not the whole story.
Just my $.02.
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WE Has Wisdom?
As a spectator in this forum, and now Canadian aviation....maybe there is some wisdom in what WE is saying. I had the rug pulled out after 911, it was the same old story, money is not a problem here. Bigger operations than the likes of WJ or sunwing are in dire straits, in and outside of aviation. We never learn how cooked the books are until the rats have long gone. Be Freakin Careful!!! Have a bail out plan. Canada`s aviation scene isn`t so bad if you are logging jet time and it`s a win win situation at 25 years old.
You don`t want to be workin the Hadjj at 58 because you ODed on kool-aid. Most likely AC and WJ will be around for some time to come. Lets all hope. As for the rest, who knows. Gravity has a strong pull in Canadian Aviation.
H Man
You don`t want to be workin the Hadjj at 58 because you ODed on kool-aid. Most likely AC and WJ will be around for some time to come. Lets all hope. As for the rest, who knows. Gravity has a strong pull in Canadian Aviation.
H Man
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The term "flag carrier" is anachronistic. It comes from an era where airlines were annoited by their respective governments to "carry the flag".
It means very little, if anything today, especially in North America.
There are numerous Canadian airlines, Transat and Skyservice come to mind, that fly into places the old "flag" carrier doesn't fly. To people in Austria, I would imagine Skyservice is Canada's "Flag" carrier. To people in Exeter, Transat is Canada's "Flag" carrier. Transat would definitely be the "Flag" carrier to Scotland. Who is the "Flag" airline to the Dominican Republic? WestJet? Air Canada? Transat? Skyservice?
It's slightly ironic that Transat, CanJet, Skyservice, Zoom and Sunwing all have Canadian flags on their livery. WJ has the flag and "Proudly Canadian" on it's livery. Other large Canadian based airlines do not carry the flag. Weird, eh?
It means very little, if anything today, especially in North America.
There are numerous Canadian airlines, Transat and Skyservice come to mind, that fly into places the old "flag" carrier doesn't fly. To people in Austria, I would imagine Skyservice is Canada's "Flag" carrier. To people in Exeter, Transat is Canada's "Flag" carrier. Transat would definitely be the "Flag" carrier to Scotland. Who is the "Flag" airline to the Dominican Republic? WestJet? Air Canada? Transat? Skyservice?
It's slightly ironic that Transat, CanJet, Skyservice, Zoom and Sunwing all have Canadian flags on their livery. WJ has the flag and "Proudly Canadian" on it's livery. Other large Canadian based airlines do not carry the flag. Weird, eh?
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Speedboat,
(this is not intended to slight anyone...)
Under the FARs, United is a FLAG carrier and Southwest is not. The CARs don't make a similar distinction. Having the canadian flag on your fuselage doesn't make you a 'designated' canadian FLAG carrier in the same context.
FYI SWA and UAL fleets all have the Stars and Stipes on their fuselage.
If you applied the same criteria in Canada, then Air Canada would be the ONLY FLAG carrier we have.
(this is not intended to slight anyone...)
Under the FARs, United is a FLAG carrier and Southwest is not. The CARs don't make a similar distinction. Having the canadian flag on your fuselage doesn't make you a 'designated' canadian FLAG carrier in the same context.
FYI SWA and UAL fleets all have the Stars and Stipes on their fuselage.
If you applied the same criteria in Canada, then Air Canada would be the ONLY FLAG carrier we have.
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spencer101
Westjet is a Domestic Carrier. Occasionally, it is a 'charter' carrier.
Since they don't yet fly to International destinations, like Europe or Asia, they haven't added the "FLAG" carrier arrow to their quiver.
Calgary to Hawaii, doesn't count. Neither does Winnipeg - Orlando.
Converted to FAR jargon, West Jet is a Domestic/Supplemental carrier. Again, we don't actually have the same differentiation in CARs. So, the fact WJA has a CDN flag on ALL its' aircraft is nice, but it doesn't make them a defacto 'flag' carrier when it comes to bilateral agreements between countries.
Hope this helps?
Willie
Westjet is a Domestic Carrier. Occasionally, it is a 'charter' carrier.
Since they don't yet fly to International destinations, like Europe or Asia, they haven't added the "FLAG" carrier arrow to their quiver.
Calgary to Hawaii, doesn't count. Neither does Winnipeg - Orlando.
Converted to FAR jargon, West Jet is a Domestic/Supplemental carrier. Again, we don't actually have the same differentiation in CARs. So, the fact WJA has a CDN flag on ALL its' aircraft is nice, but it doesn't make them a defacto 'flag' carrier when it comes to bilateral agreements between countries.
Hope this helps?
Willie
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WE, could you ellaborate please. It sounds as if you're definition is based upon percentage of International CASM's. Could you provide us with those percentages? Not quite sure what you mean by "occasional", either. WJ flies Calgary- Hawaii?
Thanks,
Thanks,
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WJ has been flying sched into the Caribbean for a couple of years now, and for many years as a charter carrier.
This year, they are sched to St. Lucia, Barbados, Jamaica, Mexico and the DR.
Are these any less "international" than flights to Chile, Denmark or Indonesia?
Just wondering.
This year, they are sched to St. Lucia, Barbados, Jamaica, Mexico and the DR.
Are these any less "international" than flights to Chile, Denmark or Indonesia?
Just wondering.
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wallygator and Speedboat, you guys must be young! 
Judging by your comments and questions it sounds to me like you've both missed a couple of things regarding the designation and use of the term "flag" carrier. (something we don't really use in Canada so I'm not surprised your comments are what they are)
Here's my glossover. (and I'm not trying to be smug or sarcastic)
When governments used to sit down to negotiate bilateral agreements (today as well) they negotiated on behalf of their State owned airlines. i.e., Canada-Air Canada, France-Air France, UK-British Airways, and so on. That was under an archaic protectionist regime. Deregulation hit the process like a bowling ball. You undoubtedly know that a good number of these former state owned airlines, including Air Canada have been sold into private hands so I won't elaborate. This changed the playing rules significantly over the last 15 years plus so we now live in a world of State owned airlines and Privately owned airlines. A complicated mix if ever there was. This makes the process more difficult while at the same time retaining the right to appoint or designate a "flag" carrier.
If Westjet wants to serve AMSterdam they make application. The Dutch Gov't looks at the current agreement, sees that Air Canada is the designated flag carrier for Canada and WJ gets turned down. They then go to the French and apply to provide regular scheduled services to Paris. The French Gov't looks at the bilateral agreement and says sorry, Air Canada is the present designate. However, if you wish to serve Paris on a charter basis, there is a way. As a charter carrier but not as the designated carrier. WJ then says we really prefer to serve AMS so they decide to apply to the Dutch Gov't for services to AMS as a charter airline. The Dutch Gov't says, we can do that.
The process is an ongoing negotiation between most countries to bring to and/or ensure stability in air services.
The point I was making in a previous post is that we (Canada) don't define Flag, Supplemental, or Domestic airlines in Canada as they do in the FARs. Because they fly to Hawaii, doesn't change much. Because they may fly to a Caribbean destination still doesn't make it a Flag Carrier either. West Jet provides scheduled domestic airline service and sells Charter capacity to the travel industry much like Air Transat (who I believe got WJA into the charter business, I could be wrong because I don't follow WJA that closely)
I'm thinking WJ has in their Ops Spec two authorities. One to operate Domestic and Transborder Ops plus the authority to provide "charter" flights to a list of "other" (including Int'l) destinations. But it's only a guess.
It still doesn't make them a flag carrier in the same context as Bilateral Agreements are concerned.
Putting a decal of the Canadian flag on the fuselage also doesn't make it a 'FLAG' carrier. It's not that simple. l
Speedboat
If WJ are named in the bilaterals between Canada and St. Lucia, Barbados, Jamaica, Mexico and the DR, then it is a 'flag' carrier. However, this is something I'd have to look up.
I hope this clarifies my remarks a bit?
Willie
Judging by your comments and questions it sounds to me like you've both missed a couple of things regarding the designation and use of the term "flag" carrier. (something we don't really use in Canada so I'm not surprised your comments are what they are)
Here's my glossover. (and I'm not trying to be smug or sarcastic)
When governments used to sit down to negotiate bilateral agreements (today as well) they negotiated on behalf of their State owned airlines. i.e., Canada-Air Canada, France-Air France, UK-British Airways, and so on. That was under an archaic protectionist regime. Deregulation hit the process like a bowling ball. You undoubtedly know that a good number of these former state owned airlines, including Air Canada have been sold into private hands so I won't elaborate. This changed the playing rules significantly over the last 15 years plus so we now live in a world of State owned airlines and Privately owned airlines. A complicated mix if ever there was. This makes the process more difficult while at the same time retaining the right to appoint or designate a "flag" carrier.
If Westjet wants to serve AMSterdam they make application. The Dutch Gov't looks at the current agreement, sees that Air Canada is the designated flag carrier for Canada and WJ gets turned down. They then go to the French and apply to provide regular scheduled services to Paris. The French Gov't looks at the bilateral agreement and says sorry, Air Canada is the present designate. However, if you wish to serve Paris on a charter basis, there is a way. As a charter carrier but not as the designated carrier. WJ then says we really prefer to serve AMS so they decide to apply to the Dutch Gov't for services to AMS as a charter airline. The Dutch Gov't says, we can do that.
The process is an ongoing negotiation between most countries to bring to and/or ensure stability in air services.
The point I was making in a previous post is that we (Canada) don't define Flag, Supplemental, or Domestic airlines in Canada as they do in the FARs. Because they fly to Hawaii, doesn't change much. Because they may fly to a Caribbean destination still doesn't make it a Flag Carrier either. West Jet provides scheduled domestic airline service and sells Charter capacity to the travel industry much like Air Transat (who I believe got WJA into the charter business, I could be wrong because I don't follow WJA that closely)
I'm thinking WJ has in their Ops Spec two authorities. One to operate Domestic and Transborder Ops plus the authority to provide "charter" flights to a list of "other" (including Int'l) destinations. But it's only a guess.
It still doesn't make them a flag carrier in the same context as Bilateral Agreements are concerned.
Putting a decal of the Canadian flag on the fuselage also doesn't make it a 'FLAG' carrier.
It's not that simple. lSpeedboat
If WJ are named in the bilaterals between Canada and St. Lucia, Barbados, Jamaica, Mexico and the DR, then it is a 'flag' carrier. However, this is something I'd have to look up.
I hope this clarifies my remarks a bit?
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 23rd Sep 2008 at 01:44.
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If WJ are named in the bilaterals between Canada and St. Lucia, Barbados, Jamaica, Mexico and the DR, then it is a 'flag' carrier. However, this is something I'd have to look up.
I'd have to look this up to, but I can tel you WS offers SCHEDULED service to;
Mexico, The DR, Jamaica, The Bahamas, Barbados, St. Lucia and 5 states of the union other than Hawaii.
I'd have to look this up to, but I can tel you WS offers SCHEDULED service to;
Mexico, The DR, Jamaica, The Bahamas, Barbados, St. Lucia and 5 states of the union other than Hawaii.
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Flag Carrier
I understand were the term flag carrier came from, the one thing I find hard to understand is how Air Canada tells everyone there are Canada's flag carrier and you can't find a Canadian Flag on any of there aircraft...
Everyone else WJ - SunWing - Skyservice - AirTransat .. all fly the Canadian Flag..
MY 2 Cents
Everyone else WJ - SunWing - Skyservice - AirTransat .. all fly the Canadian Flag..
MY 2 Cents
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McDoo
So it would appear some of WJ's skeds are through bilateral agreement wherein they've been designated as the carrier of choice by the GoC. I suspect AC got first dibs but that's an assumption on my part.
That being the case, the way the air carrier divisions within the FARs go, WJ would be defined as a 'flag' carrier. They are also a Supplemental carrier and a Domestic carrier. A three-in-one, which varifies one of my other suggestions that WJ are diverting from their true blue LCC model.
...just curious, do the U.S. destinations fall under the new U.S.-Canada agreement or are their flights scheduled charter flights?
Willie
(emoticons not used out of respect for the grown-ups on this thread)
So it would appear some of WJ's skeds are through bilateral agreement wherein they've been designated as the carrier of choice by the GoC. I suspect AC got first dibs but that's an assumption on my part.
That being the case, the way the air carrier divisions within the FARs go, WJ would be defined as a 'flag' carrier. They are also a Supplemental carrier and a Domestic carrier. A three-in-one, which varifies one of my other suggestions that WJ are diverting from their true blue LCC model.
...just curious, do the U.S. destinations fall under the new U.S.-Canada agreement or are their flights scheduled charter flights?
Willie
(emoticons not used out of respect for the grown-ups on this thread)