Porter Airlines
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Austria
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Well... grippen!
Hej Nils-Emil!Seems we struck a nerve eh? If flying around in some northern dump on bush aircraft is where it is at... then why do I sense that 99% of the boys and girls on this webpage all want to fly something like: 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc? And since you like to assume names from a basis of region.... I take it that you are Swedish... so for your pleasure: Translation for Nils-Emil! AKA grippen...
"Hej Nils-Emil! Verkar som du blev lite upprord, eller? Ar det hogsta i livet att flyga omkring i ett litet bushflygplan nagonstans i vischan...varfor har jag kanslan att 99% av alla killar och tjejer pa den har sjaten vill flyga nagot i stil med 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc? Och eftersom du gillar att harleda namn av regioner sa tror jag att du maste vara svensk...har ar en oversattning for Nils-Emil!"
Or are you one of those Prolate Canadians that only speaks English? When you do make it to the big game let us know onboard (ofcourse)...and BTW... the family that went to Canada... did so because Canada needed a specialized heart surgeon and the best of them come from Austria........
"Hej Nils-Emil! Verkar som du blev lite upprord, eller? Ar det hogsta i livet att flyga omkring i ett litet bushflygplan nagonstans i vischan...varfor har jag kanslan att 99% av alla killar och tjejer pa den har sjaten vill flyga nagot i stil med 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc? Och eftersom du gillar att harleda namn av regioner sa tror jag att du maste vara svensk...har ar en oversattning for Nils-Emil!"
Or are you one of those Prolate Canadians that only speaks English? When you do make it to the big game let us know onboard (ofcourse)...and BTW... the family that went to Canada... did so because Canada needed a specialized heart surgeon and the best of them come from Austria........
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: at the edge of the alps
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Originally Posted by Alphopper
plus it is the law here in Austria that we get a 13 (June), and 14 (November) salary where the income is only taxed at 6%....
13th and 14th salary are not a law but in the contract, though. (Although 99% of employees get it through various umbrella CLAs.)
All my visits to Toronto have been very brief and I doubt that cost of living is hugely different from Austria. Buying food seemed about equally expensive while housing and cars are probably cheaper. Consumer goods (all electronics) were at least 10% cheaper over here when I last visited.
As for quality of living, that's depends a lot on what you like. For many Europeans Toronto isn't so much a "city" at all, as it is a lot of houses and people. "Downtown" Toronto seems a bit lame when compared to European cities, but that comparison is probably as unfair as asking an Austrian for the nearest floatplane flying school.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Flying backcountry and GA sure gives a lot of experience. Unfortunately most 200hr-pilots given the choice of flying a 172 by the hour or getting into a Dash 8 or CRJ with 14 fixed salaries per year would take the latter even if it requires three years bonding.
European Airlines have been putting 200hr (or less) pilots on "medium to big" iron for decades and the system seems to work. Most captains over here had about 10 hrs twin-engine time (on a Seneca) when they joined.
What you lose in hands-on experience you also lose in chances to form bad habits. (I had about 600hrs without any meaningful twin time before I first sat in the right seat of a 50-seat Dash).
European Airlines have been putting 200hr (or less) pilots on "medium to big" iron for decades and the system seems to work. Most captains over here had about 10 hrs twin-engine time (on a Seneca) when they joined.
What you lose in hands-on experience you also lose in chances to form bad habits. (I had about 600hrs without any meaningful twin time before I first sat in the right seat of a 50-seat Dash).
Cadet programs place First Officers with no real world experience in real world situations they occasionally can't handle. It's all well and good when a good Captain is in charge, but what happens when the Captain gets in over their head? Cadet First Officers who lack experience sometimes lack the assertiveness that's needed when the crap hits the fan. Gulf Air's A320 crash, and Flash Airlines at Sharm al Sheik are prime examples of an accident where an inexperienced F/O was incapable of assertively assisting a Captain in trouble. This may also be a finding in the Helios accident.
If cadets do make it to Captain, they usually have little if any experience in handling events which aren't addressed in the book, like the accident scenarios I've mentioned above. I've flown with low time cadets and with high time bush drivers, and I'll take the experienced bush drivers every time. Any "bad habits" as you call them are all down to training and SOP and they are easily addressed in a good training program. Experience only comes from many hours in the real world, including scaring the "you know what" out of yourself once or twice.
If cadets do make it to Captain, they usually have little if any experience in handling events which aren't addressed in the book, like the accident scenarios I've mentioned above. I've flown with low time cadets and with high time bush drivers, and I'll take the experienced bush drivers every time. Any "bad habits" as you call them are all down to training and SOP and they are easily addressed in a good training program. Experience only comes from many hours in the real world, including scaring the "you know what" out of yourself once or twice.
Last edited by J.O.; 15th May 2006 at 00:34.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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J.O., do you happen to know if the Flash Air and Gulf Air F/Os were indeed cadets. What happened there could have been a problem of no seniority or excessive deference to the captain in a non-western cultural setting as well.
Many European Airlines rely on cadets to fill their ranks and while your argument about experience seems valid the safety record seems to fail to back it up.
With the projected pilot demand, the estimated training capabilities and the relation of the number of "experience-getting" jobs vs. airline seats to be filled we will have a lot more cadet type pilots over the next decades. There is not nearly enough outback flying, pipeline patrol, glider towing, etc. being done to give even 1000hrs experience to every pilot required. (ICAOs proposed solution to get rid of single-pilot training alltogether with the MPL license can't be the right solution for this problem, though.)
(Maybe one big flaw in the "getting experience through working one's way up the ranks" theory is that flying with modern airline-type equipment gives you far better chances of learning from a mistake while living through it thanks to various protective systems.)
From an individual pilot's career perspective a pilot with 3000 hours, 2800 of which are in a Dash 8, CRJ, Fokker 70/100, A320, etc. will simply have better chances to land an airline job than someone with the same number of hours in (prop) Cessnas, etc.
Many European Airlines rely on cadets to fill their ranks and while your argument about experience seems valid the safety record seems to fail to back it up.
With the projected pilot demand, the estimated training capabilities and the relation of the number of "experience-getting" jobs vs. airline seats to be filled we will have a lot more cadet type pilots over the next decades. There is not nearly enough outback flying, pipeline patrol, glider towing, etc. being done to give even 1000hrs experience to every pilot required. (ICAOs proposed solution to get rid of single-pilot training alltogether with the MPL license can't be the right solution for this problem, though.)
(Maybe one big flaw in the "getting experience through working one's way up the ranks" theory is that flying with modern airline-type equipment gives you far better chances of learning from a mistake while living through it thanks to various protective systems.)
From an individual pilot's career perspective a pilot with 3000 hours, 2800 of which are in a Dash 8, CRJ, Fokker 70/100, A320, etc. will simply have better chances to land an airline job than someone with the same number of hours in (prop) Cessnas, etc.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Originally Posted by J.O.
Cadet programs place First Officers with no real world experience in real world situations they occasionally can't handle. It's all well and good when a good Captain is in charge, but what happens when the Captain gets in over their head? Cadet First Officers who lack experience sometimes lack the assertiveness that's needed when the crap hits the fan. Gulf Air's A320 crash, and Flash Airlines at Sharm al Sheik are prime examples of an accident where an inexperienced F/O was incapable of assertively assisting a Captain in trouble. This may also be a finding in the Helios accident.
If cadets do make it to Captain, they usually have little if any experience in handling events which aren't addressed in the book, like the accident scenarios I've mentioned above. I've flown with low time cadets and with high time bush drivers, and I'll take the experienced bush drivers every time. Any "bad habits" as you call them are all down to training and SOP and they are easily addressed in a good training program. Experience only comes from many hours in the real world, including scaring the "you know what" out of yourself once or twice.
If cadets do make it to Captain, they usually have little if any experience in handling events which aren't addressed in the book, like the accident scenarios I've mentioned above. I've flown with low time cadets and with high time bush drivers, and I'll take the experienced bush drivers every time. Any "bad habits" as you call them are all down to training and SOP and they are easily addressed in a good training program. Experience only comes from many hours in the real world, including scaring the "you know what" out of yourself once or twice.
In Europe i got instructed by a former military-airline pilot in retirement with tens of thousands of hours, here the instructor have often less hours than me and they are soooooooo inexperienced. In fact, they teach to gain experience, not to pass it to the student!!! that for me is not good at all (specially if you pay 40$/hour) and maybe is one of the reason why companies ask for 3000 hours to fly a beaver, nobody will teach you... you learn by yourself... sound dangerous to me ...sorry.
Canada is a beautiful country with a lot of opportunities in many field.
UN ranking was, Canada at the 3rd place but i think the first 2 were european country (Zurig is the best city in the word) but i guess UN does not consider aviation and pilot salaries.... sorry but bad argument there.... go aroud a try againg...
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This is an argument that goes back many years. Wether you train pilots in a cadet program or hire "experienced" pilots hasn't had any huge impact in terms of safety. Both records are good. The old concern was that the so called cadet program would put young, inexperienced pilots at the controls. In reality the experience gained from sitting next to a real experienced airline pilot in real airline flying is most valuable. The record speaks for itself. On the other hand, the so called experienced bush pilots that canada is so famous for developing have scared the **** out of me a few times and when I question them, I get the old "never mind kid" response. Still though, no cause for concern I guess and the record speaks for itself. Years ago I converted my private licence to a European one. The one thing that stood out in the mind of the European examiner was that in N.America we have good hands and feet but lack in knowledge. I tend to agree.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I am Canadian!
Hello all,
Interesting discussion. My two cents:
I love Canada, great place to live and IMHO the best place to live. I've spent much time in Asia, ME, Western Europe living temporarily (six months and less per stay) and I am born and raised Canadian. I have little & big Bus, skinny & fat Boeing, long and short haul experience and I worked the bottom right through the system in Canadian aviation to where I am now. I have flown with many and varied FOs from all ages and many countries.
What a blast! My back does a twitch when I reminisce about the first three thousand hours or so of starting at the bottom in Northern Canada. It was a lot of awkward lifting - chartacter building, they say... The places, people and things you see! The stuff you haul! People have called me a liar to my face when I talk about some of those things - it really is unbelievable stuff to all except who have done it. Priceless.
Would I have preferred to go through the European Cadet System? Yep. Do I like the way Canadian aviation is by career progression? Nope. Do I envy the guys/gals who get a Captain slot at a major at age twenty five? Yep. Do I think that we could learn a lot from our European friends by way of training methods and standards? Yep, and we are slowly to much faster in the future as we evolve. Because of our "out of the bush" progression, do I think we have something many Europeans don't in the "bag of tricks"? Yep.
I have lived in YZF, YVR, YYZ, YYC and many smaller towns/cities across Canada as well as the previously mentioned world-wide regions. Specifically; DUB, DXP, JED, ALG, MLE, MXP, CDG, HLP, MAN, AUH... I digress.
With reference to YYZ's downtown core and comparison to a European city, you are right. You will find, as a European person, that you will come to any Canadian city or town and become bored out of your mind. If you are coming to Canada to enjoy our country because of our night life and downtown cores - don't bother, save your money and go somewhere else (Halifax/Montreal being the exception
). Our country is based on its country. If you want to come to Canada and slow right down, taste life and enjoy the scenery from skates, skiis, canoes, kayaks, ATVs, big SUVs, snowmobiles or a light Cessna - then you're coming to the right place.
What's my point? Your European cities are beautiful for a short and fun time and the history...wow! Your career progression has us in envy. Your countrysides are beautiful as well. I prefer Canada. It is big. It is beautiful. It is diverse. It is still maturing. It is full of polite people.
Hole is dug'n da helmet's on!
Interesting discussion. My two cents:
I love Canada, great place to live and IMHO the best place to live. I've spent much time in Asia, ME, Western Europe living temporarily (six months and less per stay) and I am born and raised Canadian. I have little & big Bus, skinny & fat Boeing, long and short haul experience and I worked the bottom right through the system in Canadian aviation to where I am now. I have flown with many and varied FOs from all ages and many countries.
What a blast! My back does a twitch when I reminisce about the first three thousand hours or so of starting at the bottom in Northern Canada. It was a lot of awkward lifting - chartacter building, they say... The places, people and things you see! The stuff you haul! People have called me a liar to my face when I talk about some of those things - it really is unbelievable stuff to all except who have done it. Priceless.
Would I have preferred to go through the European Cadet System? Yep. Do I like the way Canadian aviation is by career progression? Nope. Do I envy the guys/gals who get a Captain slot at a major at age twenty five? Yep. Do I think that we could learn a lot from our European friends by way of training methods and standards? Yep, and we are slowly to much faster in the future as we evolve. Because of our "out of the bush" progression, do I think we have something many Europeans don't in the "bag of tricks"? Yep.
I have lived in YZF, YVR, YYZ, YYC and many smaller towns/cities across Canada as well as the previously mentioned world-wide regions. Specifically; DUB, DXP, JED, ALG, MLE, MXP, CDG, HLP, MAN, AUH... I digress.
With reference to YYZ's downtown core and comparison to a European city, you are right. You will find, as a European person, that you will come to any Canadian city or town and become bored out of your mind. If you are coming to Canada to enjoy our country because of our night life and downtown cores - don't bother, save your money and go somewhere else (Halifax/Montreal being the exception
). Our country is based on its country. If you want to come to Canada and slow right down, taste life and enjoy the scenery from skates, skiis, canoes, kayaks, ATVs, big SUVs, snowmobiles or a light Cessna - then you're coming to the right place. What's my point? Your European cities are beautiful for a short and fun time and the history...wow! Your career progression has us in envy. Your countrysides are beautiful as well. I prefer Canada. It is big. It is beautiful. It is diverse. It is still maturing. It is full of polite people.
Hole is dug'n da helmet's on!
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Right you are 4Jahed
After reading your posting... I think you are very correct... and very humbble... thank you for making a good posting. I think I may have been a bit to "coarse" on my postings... you are an experienced person and I wish that there were many more guys like you around.. sounds like you have had a "life well lived-flown"!!
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Nice post 4jahed. I started my career in the Canadian Arctic, worked with a large charter operator out of YUL, visited many European cities along the way. Now I'm in the ME and experiencing different parts of the world and loving it. I agree with 4jahed's view of Canadian vs European aviation. Where I am now, I see 30yr old ex-euro and asian pilots in command of heavy jets and have nothing but good comments, but I'll never forget my roots and appreciate all the good experience I gained in Canada. Unfortunately for me, I had an ex-wife with a couple of kids and was forced to leave as I was living under the poverty line as a widebody captain 
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Just to make it clear, I was not trying to state that Canada is a bad place to live. It just depends on what you want and if you want what Canada is famous for YYZ is maybe not the best place to find it.
To most Europeans Canada is the best way of living in America without having to bother with the US
4JAHED, wonderful post! I haven't seen a tenth of what you have (and I was not a cadet).
To most Europeans Canada is the best way of living in America without having to bother with the US
4JAHED, wonderful post! I haven't seen a tenth of what you have (and I was not a cadet).
Join Date: May 2006
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Ex Q400 F/o living in Canada, havent heard from Porter as yet. Q400 is an exellent machine for the job. Would they mind me commuting from YYC I wonder?
Just to add to your little discussion, I am a Brit living in Calgary I moved here last October and very happy to do so. My family and I are much happier here. Licence conversion was straight-forward with no pointless questions. Flight test just as taxing. Taxes about the same. My house is a Palace in comparison to what I'm use to. Sking at the weekends was great. Tv is prehaps not great but then that is the perfect excuse not to watch it. No flying job yet but I'm sure it will happen in time.
Just to add to your little discussion, I am a Brit living in Calgary I moved here last October and very happy to do so. My family and I are much happier here. Licence conversion was straight-forward with no pointless questions. Flight test just as taxing. Taxes about the same. My house is a Palace in comparison to what I'm use to. Sking at the weekends was great. Tv is prehaps not great but then that is the perfect excuse not to watch it. No flying job yet but I'm sure it will happen in time.
