Boeing , Boeings , gone.
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Boeing , Boeings , gone.
The AC Pilot group has voted down the negotiated pay structure for the previously announced large Boeing order of 777`s and 787`s thus cancelling the order for all those shiny new a/c ... , that`s it , I`m withdrawing my application. What a shame. How much were ya asking for ?? And was it really that bad that you said no ?
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Surely you have a link that reports this as true? If it is, there are a lot of furloughed AC pilots wondering exactly what the hell is happening! Can you substantiate the report? I wonder what the ACPA retoric might be like...AC get busy!!! More than a few guys would like to go home and get back to work...
Cheers
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Unfortunately it's true,
The vote was NO by a slim margin. Those who voted No were sending a message to management about the seniority issue with the ex CP problem.......many original AC pilots don't know what to do anymore to get justice and there was a large movement to vote NO . Some others voted NO because they are tired of giving concessions.
What kills me is that over a 1000 guys didn't vote ....had they voted I'm sure it would have passed.Everybody here takes things for granted and sit on their a....s and never get involved and now 1200 guys out of 3100 voted NO and again we get scrwed ....except this time we do it to ourselves.We are pathetic as a group and all you guys who didn't vote suck big time
I sure hope you NO guys get your message across....since everything else failed why not shoot ourselves in the foot,maybe that will help us get our seniority back....NOT.
This is incredible...either the company screws us or a judge or Canadian and now.......ourselves.
The vote was NO by a slim margin. Those who voted No were sending a message to management about the seniority issue with the ex CP problem.......many original AC pilots don't know what to do anymore to get justice and there was a large movement to vote NO . Some others voted NO because they are tired of giving concessions.
What kills me is that over a 1000 guys didn't vote ....had they voted I'm sure it would have passed.Everybody here takes things for granted and sit on their a....s and never get involved and now 1200 guys out of 3100 voted NO and again we get scrwed ....except this time we do it to ourselves.We are pathetic as a group and all you guys who didn't vote suck big time
I sure hope you NO guys get your message across....since everything else failed why not shoot ourselves in the foot,maybe that will help us get our seniority back....NOT.
This is incredible...either the company screws us or a judge or Canadian and now.......ourselves.
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It was voted down simply because it was a bad deal. NOTHING ELSE
When Air Canada orders a new aircraft type, the pilots and the company sit down and discuss what the new pay structure will be. If they can't agree then it goes to arbitration to set the new payscale.
THEY DON"T DISCUSS CONCESSIONS!!!!!!
Especially when so many concessions had already been given and no other employee group was asked for more concessions.
If Air Canada can't find a way to operate these aircraft within the current slashed contract (with the lowest payrates and poorest working conditions of any major carrier) then they don't deserve to be in business.
The pilots simply had enough of concessions. They decided to stop "Giving it up" like cheap whores.
Just because your pimp offers to buy you a new dress, there is no reason bend over and take it up the ass.
When Air Canada orders a new aircraft type, the pilots and the company sit down and discuss what the new pay structure will be. If they can't agree then it goes to arbitration to set the new payscale.
THEY DON"T DISCUSS CONCESSIONS!!!!!!
Especially when so many concessions had already been given and no other employee group was asked for more concessions.
If Air Canada can't find a way to operate these aircraft within the current slashed contract (with the lowest payrates and poorest working conditions of any major carrier) then they don't deserve to be in business.
The pilots simply had enough of concessions. They decided to stop "Giving it up" like cheap whores.
Just because your pimp offers to buy you a new dress, there is no reason bend over and take it up the ass.
Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 19th Jun 2005 at 06:02.
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Yup, too bad. However AC will make up required additional aircraft numbers with other aircraft. A 767-300 arrived in YVR earlier this week and was parked outside the south hangar. P4 registration. Now gone, so probably in the YYZ paint hangar.
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How much were ya asking for ?? And was it really that bad that you said no ?
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Excellent!
Lost in Saigon hit the nail on the head. NO MORE CONCESSIONS!
Why were 320 overtime rates negotiated into the deal?
Why are the 787's cancelled? Their rates weren't even in the deal? And there's still 5 years before they show up.
Bunks, no J-class seat, 1050 hours a year, MORE pilots into the B-scale Position Group?
What was in it for us? Where is our "cost neutral" benefit?
There is a contract that AC INSISTED be signed until 2009 for "stability"; it contains processes for dealing with these exact situations. So follow it. End of story.
Its called called "negotiating" for a reason.
AND, there is an arbitration process that they could still follow when the negotiating stops.
AC management has chosen not to follow this path. So be it.
Why should we bend over and take it again?
If it came down to the pilots being the make-or-break cost of these new planes, I think its best we didn't get them because we definately couldn't afford them. Especially in a world of $58 a barrel oil.
Shame the proposed 30% operating cost savings weren't enough to keep the pilots concessions down.
I didn't see the F/A's renegotiating their contract. Hmm; I think there's how many? 14+ of them going for a ride in these new toys too. Why not take them for 1/5th the $ they needed from the pilots and leave the poor RP to STILL make less than most of them!!!
I'm glad this was voted down. Hope the stock tanks (and stays down) on Monday and Uncle Miltys 30+mill in stock options go with it.
How long do we have to be lead by this incompetent managment team anyway? Doesn't a company usually get rid of the guys who lead them into bankruptcy after its over?
I'm glad the pilots are starting to grow some testes and speak with one voice against the raping.
And don't think the OAC Keller movement had much sway here. We're not so stupid as to think killing the Boeings will take Keller down.
This was a BAD offer, and we'd rather take our chances with arbitration.
I think this is purely AC taking it to the next level of pressure.
If they really want to expand overseas they can't just very well pick up a copy of Trade-a-Plane and find 777's or 340's can they?
No more concessions.
Tony.
Lost in Saigon hit the nail on the head. NO MORE CONCESSIONS!
Why were 320 overtime rates negotiated into the deal?
Why are the 787's cancelled? Their rates weren't even in the deal? And there's still 5 years before they show up.
Bunks, no J-class seat, 1050 hours a year, MORE pilots into the B-scale Position Group?
What was in it for us? Where is our "cost neutral" benefit?
There is a contract that AC INSISTED be signed until 2009 for "stability"; it contains processes for dealing with these exact situations. So follow it. End of story.
Its called called "negotiating" for a reason.
AND, there is an arbitration process that they could still follow when the negotiating stops.
AC management has chosen not to follow this path. So be it.
Why should we bend over and take it again?
If it came down to the pilots being the make-or-break cost of these new planes, I think its best we didn't get them because we definately couldn't afford them. Especially in a world of $58 a barrel oil.
Shame the proposed 30% operating cost savings weren't enough to keep the pilots concessions down.
I didn't see the F/A's renegotiating their contract. Hmm; I think there's how many? 14+ of them going for a ride in these new toys too. Why not take them for 1/5th the $ they needed from the pilots and leave the poor RP to STILL make less than most of them!!!
I'm glad this was voted down. Hope the stock tanks (and stays down) on Monday and Uncle Miltys 30+mill in stock options go with it.
How long do we have to be lead by this incompetent managment team anyway? Doesn't a company usually get rid of the guys who lead them into bankruptcy after its over?
I'm glad the pilots are starting to grow some testes and speak with one voice against the raping.
And don't think the OAC Keller movement had much sway here. We're not so stupid as to think killing the Boeings will take Keller down.
This was a BAD offer, and we'd rather take our chances with arbitration.
I think this is purely AC taking it to the next level of pressure.
If they really want to expand overseas they can't just very well pick up a copy of Trade-a-Plane and find 777's or 340's can they?
No more concessions.
Tony.
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with the lowest payrates and poorest working conditions of any major carrier
This is just another chapter in the life of a corporate leech. Isn't this the same Air Canada that just emerged from bankruptcy, leaving several creditors out to dry to the tune of about $13 billion? To put that into perspective, if the debt was divided evenly among all Canadians (not just creditors) that’s about $430 per person. So a family of 4 would represent about $1700.
Remember how Air Canada got into that predicament? By selling seats for less than they were worth. Not because they were being undercut by competition. Because they pay top dollar for arguably the least efficient workforce in the industry.
So…you guys are sick of concessions? Well, Canadians (many of which are now poorer because of your bankruptcy) are quite sick of Air Canada and the concessions we have made to keep you afloat. Its amazing to me how the same management team can emerge unscathed from bankruptcy and start buying brand new airplanes to compete against the very operators who were responsible enough to run their companies efficiently while providing employees a reasonable wage.
For now, just suck it up and hope to hell you don’t find yourselves a few billion in the hole any time soon. The creditors probably won’t be quite so understanding next time.
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Gentlemen. Ac is not dead. The issue of seniority will be resolved. The word GROWTH is still being thrown around and at the end of the day, as always, life goes on. Here's the statement from flt ops management:
Dear Colleagues…
By now you are no doubt aware that the Tentative Agreement concerning
the introduction of the B777 and B787 aircraft has been rejected. A
majority of the pilot group has spoken and we respect and abide by your
decision.
While I know this outcome is disappointing to many of us, we have had to
notify Boeing of our intention to cancel the order. To offer background,
Boeing required a 200 million dollar deposit which becomes nonrefundable
on June 19th. Obviously, without an agreement in place, we could not
risk the deposit money and therefore the reason for the cancellation.
Moving ahead, we will continue striving to enhance our company which is
once again growing and profitable. We will, however, have to do it
differently. Today, the used aircraft market, especially for
wide-bodies is extremely tight, but hopefully, over the course of the
next year we will be able to find used A340, A330, and 767 aircraft
which will enable us to achieve the growth that was otherwise
planned for 2006 with 777 deliveries. While, clearly, we don't feel that
this is as attractive economically, especially with today's high fuel
prices, we will work our way through it. Key for us,
will be the longer term issue of replacing our 767 aircraft, but for
now, we'll just leave that for another day.
I also want to take this opportunity to thank ACPA's leadership for
their efforts to secure an agreement which would have allowed the order
to go forward. Through the ratification process, many pilots expressed
their support for Air Canada acquiring these aircraft, but also conveyed
concerns over pilot seniority issues which have been the subject of
considerable negotiations, arbitration and Canada Industrial Relations
Board (CIRB) deliberation. There are clearly seniority issues to be
resolved to the satisfaction of our entire pilot group and we will
continue to support ACPA as they strive to achieve that outcome.
It is our hope that, in time, we will find ways to bring new aircraft
into the fleet in a manner that is beneficial to both the pilots and the
company.
Rob
Dear Colleagues…
By now you are no doubt aware that the Tentative Agreement concerning
the introduction of the B777 and B787 aircraft has been rejected. A
majority of the pilot group has spoken and we respect and abide by your
decision.
While I know this outcome is disappointing to many of us, we have had to
notify Boeing of our intention to cancel the order. To offer background,
Boeing required a 200 million dollar deposit which becomes nonrefundable
on June 19th. Obviously, without an agreement in place, we could not
risk the deposit money and therefore the reason for the cancellation.
Moving ahead, we will continue striving to enhance our company which is
once again growing and profitable. We will, however, have to do it
differently. Today, the used aircraft market, especially for
wide-bodies is extremely tight, but hopefully, over the course of the
next year we will be able to find used A340, A330, and 767 aircraft
which will enable us to achieve the growth that was otherwise
planned for 2006 with 777 deliveries. While, clearly, we don't feel that
this is as attractive economically, especially with today's high fuel
prices, we will work our way through it. Key for us,
will be the longer term issue of replacing our 767 aircraft, but for
now, we'll just leave that for another day.
I also want to take this opportunity to thank ACPA's leadership for
their efforts to secure an agreement which would have allowed the order
to go forward. Through the ratification process, many pilots expressed
their support for Air Canada acquiring these aircraft, but also conveyed
concerns over pilot seniority issues which have been the subject of
considerable negotiations, arbitration and Canada Industrial Relations
Board (CIRB) deliberation. There are clearly seniority issues to be
resolved to the satisfaction of our entire pilot group and we will
continue to support ACPA as they strive to achieve that outcome.
It is our hope that, in time, we will find ways to bring new aircraft
into the fleet in a manner that is beneficial to both the pilots and the
company.
Rob
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As I posted just now on the Avcanada website. And no, I'm not an AC jockey:
I too call BS. If so much of the future plans of AC depend on these new machines, and they are that much more fuel efficient than current equipment, it seems to me that it's management who is cutting off their nose to spite their face. We don't even know what specifically the company was asking for that the pilots didn't like. We have all heard rumours that it wasn't pay, or not all pay, but working conditions. The first 787 wasn't supposed to be delivered until 2010 and the current agreement goes until 2009. It seems to me you have a little time to revisit the issue. Yes, the first 777's are coming later this year. Keep negotiating.
This is a move by Milton to try and force the pilot's to be desparate and make them look bad. From my point of view, it seems the opposite has happened. Good on ACPA!
I too call BS. If so much of the future plans of AC depend on these new machines, and they are that much more fuel efficient than current equipment, it seems to me that it's management who is cutting off their nose to spite their face. We don't even know what specifically the company was asking for that the pilots didn't like. We have all heard rumours that it wasn't pay, or not all pay, but working conditions. The first 787 wasn't supposed to be delivered until 2010 and the current agreement goes until 2009. It seems to me you have a little time to revisit the issue. Yes, the first 777's are coming later this year. Keep negotiating.
This is a move by Milton to try and force the pilot's to be desparate and make them look bad. From my point of view, it seems the opposite has happened. Good on ACPA!
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This vote was not so much an issue of working conditions as it was a seniority issue. The NO vote sent a strong message to the CIRB and to management and also to our very own union. FIX the problem so we can live with the merger. AC will not sink because of this issue, it will continue to grow simply because the market is good right now. Wether or not AC will fly 777/787 or used something or other, our seats will be filled and yes . life goes on. If the seniority issue does not get resolved (which I doubt) many pilots will have to bite the bullet.
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brucelee, you are pushing YOUR agenda, not the bulk of the pilots who voted against a bad deal. The wages weren't so much of a problem as the chipping away at the contract with more concessions, directed solely at the pilot group.
If AC wants to cut more costs, then get after the f/as, and other groups. The pilot concessions in CCAA are more or less permanent. Other groups have snapped back and hired while pilots are still on furlough, or long term LOA. There isn't much sense in hurrying back, and hopefully the people that apply to AC will have a very serious look at working conditions and pay that are not better than the Third World. Even the CARs allow working in conditions that don't exist in the Third World.
If AC wants to cut more costs, then get after the f/as, and other groups. The pilot concessions in CCAA are more or less permanent. Other groups have snapped back and hired while pilots are still on furlough, or long term LOA. There isn't much sense in hurrying back, and hopefully the people that apply to AC will have a very serious look at working conditions and pay that are not better than the Third World. Even the CARs allow working in conditions that don't exist in the Third World.
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Grubby.
If you're not an AC pilot, I can understand your lack of knowledge of the facts. If you are an AC person, we have more problems than I thought we had. I'm not pushing any agenda. Just stating the facts. Had it not been for a lobsided seniority decision on the part of the CIRB, we would have 777 a/c flying the maple leaf next year. You are right, the pilot group did give up more than anyone else. We were even willing to live with that. But the seniority issue is no where near being resolved and as a result over 1100 pilots vs. 900 or so made their decision. BTW, all furloughs have been recalled just in case you missed it.
If you're not an AC pilot, I can understand your lack of knowledge of the facts. If you are an AC person, we have more problems than I thought we had. I'm not pushing any agenda. Just stating the facts. Had it not been for a lobsided seniority decision on the part of the CIRB, we would have 777 a/c flying the maple leaf next year. You are right, the pilot group did give up more than anyone else. We were even willing to live with that. But the seniority issue is no where near being resolved and as a result over 1100 pilots vs. 900 or so made their decision. BTW, all furloughs have been recalled just in case you missed it.
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I am an Air Canada Pilot. The few OAC pilots who voted no because of seniority issues probably offset the brainwashed pilots who always vote the way the MEC tells them to.
"Sending a message" to Air Canada about seniority issues will have absolutely no effect. The seniority issue is still before the courts and that is where the final decisions will be made......
"Sending a message" to Air Canada about seniority issues will have absolutely no effect. The seniority issue is still before the courts and that is where the final decisions will be made......
Last edited by Lost in Saigon; 20th Jun 2005 at 00:03.
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Attempt after attempt (I've lost count) with the CIRB has failed to provide justice. I can tell you that a large number of original AC pilots have lost so much seniority, they feel they have been raped. The numbers don't lie. No other group has suffered the losses the OAC pilots have and I guess enough is enough. The original CP pilots did the same thing when the Mitchnik award came out. They fought back and successfully overturned Mitchnik and achieved an award which will affect all OAC for the rest of their careers. There has got to be a middle of the road settlement. That's what we agreed upon before the CIRB a few years ago. Sending a message will, if nothing else, prove that in the future, any vote will have the seniority cloud over it. This vote was probably not that important to the company to begin with. They are making money now with the egsisting equipment and will continue to do so in the future. Maybe the next vote will be more important. Make no mistake, there is strength in numbers.
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brucelee, yes I am AC. Semanitics I guess, pilots are still not back at AC for various reasons, be it LOA, resignation, etc. The point is that most other groups we back at full strength, or hardly furloughed at all even with that condition as a major part of their concession packages.
We have a contract. We have a collective agreement to which AC was party that should be honoured. Is AC ever going to plan with that as the working document, or are we going to be asked for concessions forever? Is there any honour in AC management, or does 'a new relationship with ACPA' mean that they just want the pilots to do the company bidding all the time?
You may be pushing the seniority issue as your main reason for the no vote, but you can bet that a straw poll of the pilot group would not agree with you. The seniority issue is your agenda. Sad but true man, it is your deal, although as oac, I tend to sympathize I do not agree with your premise.
You are a condescending prick btw!
We have a contract. We have a collective agreement to which AC was party that should be honoured. Is AC ever going to plan with that as the working document, or are we going to be asked for concessions forever? Is there any honour in AC management, or does 'a new relationship with ACPA' mean that they just want the pilots to do the company bidding all the time?
You may be pushing the seniority issue as your main reason for the no vote, but you can bet that a straw poll of the pilot group would not agree with you. The seniority issue is your agenda. Sad but true man, it is your deal, although as oac, I tend to sympathize I do not agree with your premise.
You are a condescending prick btw!
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Grubby
I am a 32 year OAC Captain and I have to disagree with your ascertainment that seniority had nothing to do with it. For sure it wasn’t the whole story but it sure played a part in this vote outcome.
What a surprise that the new AC wasn’t bluffing. What did everyone think would happen on a no vote? Hey it’s a new world out there since the LCC’s came on the scene.
I wish it wasn’t so but that’s not reality is it?
I am a 32 year OAC Captain and I have to disagree with your ascertainment that seniority had nothing to do with it. For sure it wasn’t the whole story but it sure played a part in this vote outcome.
What a surprise that the new AC wasn’t bluffing. What did everyone think would happen on a no vote? Hey it’s a new world out there since the LCC’s came on the scene.
I wish it wasn’t so but that’s not reality is it?
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Tan, hmmmmm, let me read back to my old posts. Nope, nope. wow, where did I say, or you infer I had asserted "that seniority had nothing to do with it" ? Your second sentence covers it fairly well, and I agree "For sure it wasn’t the whole story but it sure played a part in this vote outcome."
It is hard to explain all the "stuff" that has happened in the past prior CCAA, during, and since. Prior to CCAA was the merger, and all sorts of concessions, contract manipulation during that period also. An irritation was definately the merger, and seniority issues. The general feeling that I have gathered, and quoting someone else " we have become PWA, CP and CAIL". I could not agree more. CCAA was as inevitable for us upon the declaration of that merger as it was for CAIL on taking Wardair. We just bought their problems, their debt, and a snotty attitude of entitlement, in SOME, actually a lot of their people. That is part of the problem, but it is not the issue that has decided the NO vote.
I do not believe that the vote spit down red/blue lines. I don't believe that the OAC group should have hijacked (oops) the seniority issue agenda for that vote either. I am not alone in this thinking, and many, probably most of the old Red types are more in line with my thinking that yours, in my recent experience. They all can't be lying to me.
It is hard to explain all the "stuff" that has happened in the past prior CCAA, during, and since. Prior to CCAA was the merger, and all sorts of concessions, contract manipulation during that period also. An irritation was definately the merger, and seniority issues. The general feeling that I have gathered, and quoting someone else " we have become PWA, CP and CAIL". I could not agree more. CCAA was as inevitable for us upon the declaration of that merger as it was for CAIL on taking Wardair. We just bought their problems, their debt, and a snotty attitude of entitlement, in SOME, actually a lot of their people. That is part of the problem, but it is not the issue that has decided the NO vote.
I do not believe that the vote spit down red/blue lines. I don't believe that the OAC group should have hijacked (oops) the seniority issue agenda for that vote either. I am not alone in this thinking, and many, probably most of the old Red types are more in line with my thinking that yours, in my recent experience. They all can't be lying to me.