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hybypass.
I'll try and answer some of your questions as best I can. I'm not an expert and my memory might not be all that great but I'll try.
On question1: There are many speculations on why AC bought CP but it is widely believed that the Liberals had much to do with it. A political stunt is usually difficult to defeat. Add to this, R. Milton's greed and the rest is history. I'm fine with all that but the seniority issue should have been dealt with internally, the way it's been done in the US(TWA,American) and decisively with no further ability for review. This issue has now been dragging on for five years and it ain't over yet.
Question 2: If I'm not mistaken, any new equipment brought in to the company has to be renegotiated. The salary as a whole is up for review in 2009 but all other factors are negotiated at the time the equipment is on paper.
Question 3: AC management under RM has followed the philosiphy of divide and conquer. Split the group any way you can, weaken them. Read his book, you will get the impression this guy does not like pilots or unions. He should be running a low cost carrier.
I'll try and answer some of your questions as best I can. I'm not an expert and my memory might not be all that great but I'll try.
On question1: There are many speculations on why AC bought CP but it is widely believed that the Liberals had much to do with it. A political stunt is usually difficult to defeat. Add to this, R. Milton's greed and the rest is history. I'm fine with all that but the seniority issue should have been dealt with internally, the way it's been done in the US(TWA,American) and decisively with no further ability for review. This issue has now been dragging on for five years and it ain't over yet.
Question 2: If I'm not mistaken, any new equipment brought in to the company has to be renegotiated. The salary as a whole is up for review in 2009 but all other factors are negotiated at the time the equipment is on paper.
Question 3: AC management under RM has followed the philosiphy of divide and conquer. Split the group any way you can, weaken them. Read his book, you will get the impression this guy does not like pilots or unions. He should be running a low cost carrier.
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Thanks BL. Keep up the battle. Anybody on the outside slagging you guys doesn't realize that you are trying to make it better for current and future Ac drivers and set an example for the rest of the industry in Canada.
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Brilliant move on the part of the pilots the rumor has it the AC 777 slots have already been filled by other carriers.
This vote was about the future and is just an another example of pilots thinking their the experts on big business and the big picture, what a hoot that is.
Jun. 21, 2005
RICK WESTHEAD
BUSINESS REPORTER
Air Canada shouldn't expect to find bargains on second-hand planes after the union representing mainline Air Canada pilots voted to quash the carrier's plans to buy new state-of-the-art jets, airline analysts and consultants say.
Demand for widebody jets, typically used to fly routes from North America to Asia and other far-flung destinations, has never been stronger.
With jet manufacturers such as Boeing Co. and Airbus SA still several years away from delivering new models, airlines are gobbling up most of the fuel-efficient second-hand planes they can find.
"The market for passenger aircraft continues to strengthen," Morgan Stanley airline analyst Douglas Runte wrote Sunday in a report to clients. "There are almost no widebody aircraft such as the 767, 777 or A330 available."
In fact, of the 600 Boeing 767-300ER jets produced by the manufacturer, just four were "parked" and available for purchase on the second-hand market in March, Runte wrote. Boeing's 777 model and Airbus' A330 and A340 models are in similarly scant supply.
"Prices are rising and availability is tight," said David Treitel, an executive with New York airline consulting firm SH&E. "There's no easy solution for Air Canada here."
However, Air Canada spokesperson Laura Cooke said the airline remains confident on meeting its target of acquiring three widebody planes next year. Last year, Air Canada acquired six such second-hand planes, and the number available could rise dramatically if any carriers filed for bankruptcy or bankruptcy protection.
Air Canada had originally placed orders worth $6.1 billion (U.S.) for 18 Boeing 777s and 14 of the Chicago-based company's new 787, also known as the Dreamliner for such things as its spacious interior and large passenger windows. Air Canada also acquired the option to purchase 18 additional 777s and 46 more 787s.
Air Canada didn't reveal the cost for each airplane, but Boeing's 777-300ER has a list price of as much as $245.5 million. The 787 sells for $120 million.
Even with the steep price tags, Air Canada hoped the new planes would pare fuel costs by about $300 million within five years. Now, however, the company faces paying relatively steep prices for second-hand jets.
Treitel, whose company has been hired by airlines to buy used planes, said he recently considered a purchase for a group of used 767 jets that were built in the early 1990s and selling for at least $28 million apiece.
Even after the purchase, an airline would face the added cost of refitting the plane to adapt its avionics equipment and conform to the carrier's seating configurations. That alone could add another $15 million to the price, Treitel said.
In a memo to employees announcing the collapse of the Boeing deal, Air Canada executive vice-president Rob Reid noted that "the used aircraft market, especially for wide-bodies is extremely tight, but hopefully, over the course of the next year we will be able to find used A340, A330 and 767 aircraft, which will enable us to achieve the growth that was otherwise planned for 2006 with 777 deliveries.
"While, clearly, we don't feel that this is as attractive economically, especially with today's high fuel prices, we will work our way through it," Reid wrote. "Key for us will be the longer-term issue of replacing our 767 aircraft, but for now, we'll just leave that for another day."
Kent Wilson, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association, confirmed yesterday that the union's members voted 1,140 to 961 to scuttle the purchase, at least partly because of widespread rancour over how pilot seniority lists were merged when Air Canada bought Canadian International Airlines Ltd. five years ago.
This vote was about the future and is just an another example of pilots thinking their the experts on big business and the big picture, what a hoot that is.
Jun. 21, 2005
RICK WESTHEAD
BUSINESS REPORTER
Air Canada shouldn't expect to find bargains on second-hand planes after the union representing mainline Air Canada pilots voted to quash the carrier's plans to buy new state-of-the-art jets, airline analysts and consultants say.
Demand for widebody jets, typically used to fly routes from North America to Asia and other far-flung destinations, has never been stronger.
With jet manufacturers such as Boeing Co. and Airbus SA still several years away from delivering new models, airlines are gobbling up most of the fuel-efficient second-hand planes they can find.
"The market for passenger aircraft continues to strengthen," Morgan Stanley airline analyst Douglas Runte wrote Sunday in a report to clients. "There are almost no widebody aircraft such as the 767, 777 or A330 available."
In fact, of the 600 Boeing 767-300ER jets produced by the manufacturer, just four were "parked" and available for purchase on the second-hand market in March, Runte wrote. Boeing's 777 model and Airbus' A330 and A340 models are in similarly scant supply.
"Prices are rising and availability is tight," said David Treitel, an executive with New York airline consulting firm SH&E. "There's no easy solution for Air Canada here."
However, Air Canada spokesperson Laura Cooke said the airline remains confident on meeting its target of acquiring three widebody planes next year. Last year, Air Canada acquired six such second-hand planes, and the number available could rise dramatically if any carriers filed for bankruptcy or bankruptcy protection.
Air Canada had originally placed orders worth $6.1 billion (U.S.) for 18 Boeing 777s and 14 of the Chicago-based company's new 787, also known as the Dreamliner for such things as its spacious interior and large passenger windows. Air Canada also acquired the option to purchase 18 additional 777s and 46 more 787s.
Air Canada didn't reveal the cost for each airplane, but Boeing's 777-300ER has a list price of as much as $245.5 million. The 787 sells for $120 million.
Even with the steep price tags, Air Canada hoped the new planes would pare fuel costs by about $300 million within five years. Now, however, the company faces paying relatively steep prices for second-hand jets.
Treitel, whose company has been hired by airlines to buy used planes, said he recently considered a purchase for a group of used 767 jets that were built in the early 1990s and selling for at least $28 million apiece.
Even after the purchase, an airline would face the added cost of refitting the plane to adapt its avionics equipment and conform to the carrier's seating configurations. That alone could add another $15 million to the price, Treitel said.
In a memo to employees announcing the collapse of the Boeing deal, Air Canada executive vice-president Rob Reid noted that "the used aircraft market, especially for wide-bodies is extremely tight, but hopefully, over the course of the next year we will be able to find used A340, A330 and 767 aircraft, which will enable us to achieve the growth that was otherwise planned for 2006 with 777 deliveries.
"While, clearly, we don't feel that this is as attractive economically, especially with today's high fuel prices, we will work our way through it," Reid wrote. "Key for us will be the longer-term issue of replacing our 767 aircraft, but for now, we'll just leave that for another day."
Kent Wilson, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association, confirmed yesterday that the union's members voted 1,140 to 961 to scuttle the purchase, at least partly because of widespread rancour over how pilot seniority lists were merged when Air Canada bought Canadian International Airlines Ltd. five years ago.
Last edited by Tan; 21st Jun 2005 at 23:26.
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Dockjock, Spanish "H" is a "J", cajones, maybe or just emotional backlash? The message was "honor the GD contract that you signed with us".
Brucelee, talking with 320 types, the paycut is much higher than you indicate on that type. Whatever the pain, it was not equitable across the pilot board, and absolutely not across the employee spectrum. Ask the Buzz Hargrove to finance the 777 lets! I wonder what Buzz might say? DUH.
Tan, have you closely read the press releases? Why not post some more of the press today. Post the information that Airbus is raising their rates, and that Boeing is in a flap about this, particularly after a less than stellar showing at the Paris Airshow. Did you let it be known that Air Canada and Boeing are still talking, and that AC has "advised Boeing of our intention to cancel". Can you show a company press release that actually says the order is outright cancelled? It may exist, but I haven't seen it.
There are political factions in ACPA that want the seniority issue to remain alive. OAC lobby is one Probably there are OCP that do for some reason too. Will management say that they have screwed this up? Why not point the finger at the pilots? They are greedy buggers that don't want new airplanes, don't want more flying jobs, don't want more movement, working condition or base choices.......it is the pilots fault. Redrum, redrum....
Honor the Contract. Tell Robert. Thanks.
Brucelee, talking with 320 types, the paycut is much higher than you indicate on that type. Whatever the pain, it was not equitable across the pilot board, and absolutely not across the employee spectrum. Ask the Buzz Hargrove to finance the 777 lets! I wonder what Buzz might say? DUH.
Tan, have you closely read the press releases? Why not post some more of the press today. Post the information that Airbus is raising their rates, and that Boeing is in a flap about this, particularly after a less than stellar showing at the Paris Airshow. Did you let it be known that Air Canada and Boeing are still talking, and that AC has "advised Boeing of our intention to cancel". Can you show a company press release that actually says the order is outright cancelled? It may exist, but I haven't seen it.
There are political factions in ACPA that want the seniority issue to remain alive. OAC lobby is one Probably there are OCP that do for some reason too. Will management say that they have screwed this up? Why not point the finger at the pilots? They are greedy buggers that don't want new airplanes, don't want more flying jobs, don't want more movement, working condition or base choices.......it is the pilots fault. Redrum, redrum....
Honor the Contract. Tell Robert. Thanks.
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A poster on another site refers to a poll done by ACPA after the vote regarding the reason for the NO vote. Only 13% voted NO because of seniority issues! The majority of no voters did so because they thought it was a bad deal for the pilots in both pay and working conditions. AC didn't go to other groups of workers and insist that they take another hit, only the pilots.
Some reports indicating that 10% of pilots are now making less than some FA's? I hope that is low seniority pilots vs high seniority FA's.
Some reports indicating that 10% of pilots are now making less than some FA's? I hope that is low seniority pilots vs high seniority FA's.
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Grubby
You seem to have a selective reading problem;
Air Canada News:
Air Canada cancels Boeing order following pilot rejection of tentative agreement. On Saturday, Air Canada announced it was cancelling the Boeing wide-body order of 777s and 787s following our pilots’ rejection of the tentative agreement on contractual terms concerning the introduction of the new aircraft. ACPA leadership had recommended ratification of the tentative agreement which had been negotiated with the assistance of Mediator Mr. M.G. Mitchnik. The order is subject to cancellation without penalty. "We are naturally disappointed at having to cancel the wide-body aircraft order but these aircraft can only be brought into our fleet on a pre-determined economic basis. Despite best efforts on the part of ACPA, the agreement has been rejected,” said Montie Brewer. “Following a successful restructuring, Air Canada has been transformed into a viable carrier. We cannot lose sight of the effort it took to get to where the airline is today and while the cancellation of this aircraft order will be disappointing to our employee group at large, including many of our pilots, it is the right decision given the circumstances. The cancellation of the order is not material to our business plan over the next few years.”
Montie has recorded a special employee message. To hear his comments about the Boeing order cancellation, call the infoLine or read it online on Aeronet or www.achorizons.ca.
You seem to have a selective reading problem;
Air Canada News:
Air Canada cancels Boeing order following pilot rejection of tentative agreement. On Saturday, Air Canada announced it was cancelling the Boeing wide-body order of 777s and 787s following our pilots’ rejection of the tentative agreement on contractual terms concerning the introduction of the new aircraft. ACPA leadership had recommended ratification of the tentative agreement which had been negotiated with the assistance of Mediator Mr. M.G. Mitchnik. The order is subject to cancellation without penalty. "We are naturally disappointed at having to cancel the wide-body aircraft order but these aircraft can only be brought into our fleet on a pre-determined economic basis. Despite best efforts on the part of ACPA, the agreement has been rejected,” said Montie Brewer. “Following a successful restructuring, Air Canada has been transformed into a viable carrier. We cannot lose sight of the effort it took to get to where the airline is today and while the cancellation of this aircraft order will be disappointing to our employee group at large, including many of our pilots, it is the right decision given the circumstances. The cancellation of the order is not material to our business plan over the next few years.”
Montie has recorded a special employee message. To hear his comments about the Boeing order cancellation, call the infoLine or read it online on Aeronet or www.achorizons.ca.
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Just as a point of interest here is a review of comments from some very important people.
From our MEC Chair:
I, along with the rest of the MEC, acknowledge that a significant factor was the long standing and still unresolved pilot seniority integration dispute."
".Captains Rob Reid and Michael Downey have also acknowledged the seniority dispute as being a significant reason for opposition to the deal."
"We have all known that the seniority integration dispute has been a divisive issue among the pilots for several years, but this is the first occasion where it has directly affected our ability to conduct the important business we have with the Company. Also obvious now, is the fact that it has directly affected how the Company manages its operations."
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it is clear that its failure [the TA] was mostly due to the unfair seniority list we have been suffering under for two years."
ACPA Merger Committee
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"There are clearly seniority issues to be resolved."
Rob Reid
Air Canada
Chief Operating Officer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are internal issues that Air Canada needs to deal with at this point.""
Todd Blecher
Boeing spokesman
From our MEC Chair:
I, along with the rest of the MEC, acknowledge that a significant factor was the long standing and still unresolved pilot seniority integration dispute."
".Captains Rob Reid and Michael Downey have also acknowledged the seniority dispute as being a significant reason for opposition to the deal."
"We have all known that the seniority integration dispute has been a divisive issue among the pilots for several years, but this is the first occasion where it has directly affected our ability to conduct the important business we have with the Company. Also obvious now, is the fact that it has directly affected how the Company manages its operations."
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it is clear that its failure [the TA] was mostly due to the unfair seniority list we have been suffering under for two years."
ACPA Merger Committee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are clearly seniority issues to be resolved."
Rob Reid
Air Canada
Chief Operating Officer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are internal issues that Air Canada needs to deal with at this point.""
Todd Blecher
Boeing spokesman
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Not sure what would have changed from April, but I suppose this no longer applies.
"Our analysis of these aircraft pointed to overwhelmingly attractive economics. We have estimated the fuel burn and maintenance cost savings along on the B787 to be approximately 30% versus the B767s they will replace." -Robert Milton
"Our analysis of these aircraft pointed to overwhelmingly attractive economics. We have estimated the fuel burn and maintenance cost savings along on the B787 to be approximately 30% versus the B767s they will replace." -Robert Milton
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A reminder
I just wanted to point out that PPRUNE requests posters not repost articles available elsewhere on the internet.
A link to said article should suffice, the premise being that we all all reasonably (computer & otherwise) literate and able to follow the link.
Otherwise I am impressed with the gentlemanly way that this thread has progressed.
My glass seems to be empty......maybe I should bring the bottle to my desk.....
Aloyious H. McDoo
A link to said article should suffice, the premise being that we all all reasonably (computer & otherwise) literate and able to follow the link.
Otherwise I am impressed with the gentlemanly way that this thread has progressed.
My glass seems to be empty......maybe I should bring the bottle to my desk.....
Aloyious H. McDoo
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Tan, brucelee, etc.
Quoting your friend RR writing today
"3. Several of our pilots have communicated to their co-workers and called for action to slow down the Company's operations. As you are aware, such action would be illegal, and so is the call for it. We are all professionals and I know that the vast majority of you do not condone or support this activity. Wherever such activity happens by a few, we all suffer the consequences – Company, pilots, and fellow employees alike. We cannot allow a situation to continue where a group of pilots promotes and encourages unlawful action to further their personal agendas. Therefore, we have filed an application with the Canada Industrial Relations Board (CIRB) to order these people to stop any such activity.
This may look like a strong reaction. But keep in mind, permitting this type of illegal activity has negative consequences for all of us. In addition, the use of illegal means to further personal goals is disrespectful to all of you professionals who play by the rules. Our application with the CIRB ensures that your interests receive the proper consideration in the lawful venues.
Our focus in applying to the CIRB is to stop the illegal activity. We are not interested in retribution or revenge, but we need to stop the illegal activities from interfering with our operations.
4. We have also made the point to the CIRB that the vote was influenced by the seniority issue. If the CIRB feels it appropriate, it could return the mediator’s report to ACPA for their consideration and a possible re-vote, absent the seniority interference, thereby ensuring that the issue can be dealt with on its’ own merits. Whether or not this occurs is obviously up to the CIRB.
We have come through too much together to let this set us back. I know that in the current situation, emotions may run high and viewpoints are sometimes disputed. Remember, we may all have different opinions, but we are united in one goal: making our airline a success. On that front, we are doing well. We are on a roll, our bookings are good, the operation is running reasonably well and things are looking up. "
What is RR saying? Why, your Pyrrhic victory is illegal in AC's eyes. You can not turn down AC management!
Why the HELL did you think that AC was willing to acknowledge the seniority issue as the reason for the TA failure? Because it is now NOT their fault as management and it is NOT the subject of the TA itself. And everyone follows along thinking, yeah, ok I voted on the TA but if this can be twisted into a seniority issue, I'll go along with that.
By allowing the inertia of public, pilot and press thinking to be influenced by the idea that seniority was the issue, without any actual proof of numbers, AC has now taken this fight to the CIRB as an illegal vote. We can not vote on a Tentative Agreement to our collective bargaining agreement unless it what AC wants.
Should this pass the CIRB, we are neutered as a group. We might as welll bend over. The only thing that might save our fat asses is if AC has to prove their allegation before the CIRB. If you can prove that seniority was the issue, then maybe you can help AC out in this matter.
Twits! ****, there needs to be a good old ass whupping, and I think AC might be about to deliver that to ACPA. Milton will win, and he will beat the crap of anyone that stands in his way.
Quoting your friend RR writing today
"3. Several of our pilots have communicated to their co-workers and called for action to slow down the Company's operations. As you are aware, such action would be illegal, and so is the call for it. We are all professionals and I know that the vast majority of you do not condone or support this activity. Wherever such activity happens by a few, we all suffer the consequences – Company, pilots, and fellow employees alike. We cannot allow a situation to continue where a group of pilots promotes and encourages unlawful action to further their personal agendas. Therefore, we have filed an application with the Canada Industrial Relations Board (CIRB) to order these people to stop any such activity.
This may look like a strong reaction. But keep in mind, permitting this type of illegal activity has negative consequences for all of us. In addition, the use of illegal means to further personal goals is disrespectful to all of you professionals who play by the rules. Our application with the CIRB ensures that your interests receive the proper consideration in the lawful venues.
Our focus in applying to the CIRB is to stop the illegal activity. We are not interested in retribution or revenge, but we need to stop the illegal activities from interfering with our operations.
4. We have also made the point to the CIRB that the vote was influenced by the seniority issue. If the CIRB feels it appropriate, it could return the mediator’s report to ACPA for their consideration and a possible re-vote, absent the seniority interference, thereby ensuring that the issue can be dealt with on its’ own merits. Whether or not this occurs is obviously up to the CIRB.
We have come through too much together to let this set us back. I know that in the current situation, emotions may run high and viewpoints are sometimes disputed. Remember, we may all have different opinions, but we are united in one goal: making our airline a success. On that front, we are doing well. We are on a roll, our bookings are good, the operation is running reasonably well and things are looking up. "
What is RR saying? Why, your Pyrrhic victory is illegal in AC's eyes. You can not turn down AC management!
Why the HELL did you think that AC was willing to acknowledge the seniority issue as the reason for the TA failure? Because it is now NOT their fault as management and it is NOT the subject of the TA itself. And everyone follows along thinking, yeah, ok I voted on the TA but if this can be twisted into a seniority issue, I'll go along with that.
By allowing the inertia of public, pilot and press thinking to be influenced by the idea that seniority was the issue, without any actual proof of numbers, AC has now taken this fight to the CIRB as an illegal vote. We can not vote on a Tentative Agreement to our collective bargaining agreement unless it what AC wants.
Should this pass the CIRB, we are neutered as a group. We might as welll bend over. The only thing that might save our fat asses is if AC has to prove their allegation before the CIRB. If you can prove that seniority was the issue, then maybe you can help AC out in this matter.
Twits! ****, there needs to be a good old ass whupping, and I think AC might be about to deliver that to ACPA. Milton will win, and he will beat the crap of anyone that stands in his way.
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"Air Canada asked the Canada Industrial Relations Board late yesterday to order a new vote on a proposed labour contract rejected last week by unionized pilots"
Hopefully now that the pilots are educated on the subject we will perhaps see a different result or at least one where all the pilots have voted. If the pilots again vote no so be it.
Professional pilots do not advocate job related slowdowns those that do in IMHO should be fired, period..
Grubby
My background is all AC I do not belong to the OAC group per sec nor do I support any part of their campaign nor do I support any part of the AC/CP campaign although I think the latter should quit if they hate AC so much. But for lack of a better description of my background I say OAC when I should just say AC.
You may not like RM but he's probably the smartest airline CEO out there right now.
Hopefully now that the pilots are educated on the subject we will perhaps see a different result or at least one where all the pilots have voted. If the pilots again vote no so be it.
Professional pilots do not advocate job related slowdowns those that do in IMHO should be fired, period..
Grubby
My background is all AC I do not belong to the OAC group per sec nor do I support any part of their campaign nor do I support any part of the AC/CP campaign although I think the latter should quit if they hate AC so much. But for lack of a better description of my background I say OAC when I should just say AC.
You may not like RM but he's probably the smartest airline CEO out there right now.
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Tan, same here, AC for many years, nor do I belong to the OAC, nor pasted an OAC sticker on my bag, nor participated in any emailings.
Yet we seem to have a squabble about the vote, you and me, and what the real meaning of that vote was about.
It appears very obvious now, to me at least, that AC management manipulated this NO vote into something other than what it really was, for their benefit, in this AC move to the CIRB.
There NEVER was an overall majority no vote based on the seniority issue, I maintain. There was a small group of the OAC political movement that were vocal about their interest.
AC took that into a press release, which they craftily asked ACPA to vette. AC can now say that ACPA and AC management were on the same page about the no vote, when AC comes before the CIRB.
ACPA has already agreed to the validation of the seniority issue by vetting the AC management press release and agreeing to the content. ACPA is now trapped, they have spoken for the entire pilot group.
Surely it is most unusual for AC to offer up a press release to ACPA prior to AC releasing anything. Was there no suspicion that there may be ulterior motives?
AC is saying to the CIRB that pilots, some or just the people that voted no to the Tentative Agreement, are declaring an illegal strike by conselling the no vote, and that the people did vote no did so on an issue not included in the TA. The result should be nullified. Should AC win, we now move to arbitration. The arbitrator may just impose the TA upon the pilots.
AC obviously wants the 777/787s and from this standpoint it looks like they probably have not cancelled the order. Otherwise, what is the point of going to the CIRB.
On the other issues covered by the AC memo ie work to rule?? what the hell, maybe I am out to lunch, but this is entirely news to me, just as the seniority issue was the reason for the no vote. It seems to me that there are some extremely dangerous political games being played on both sides, by AC management and political factions within ACPA.
So back to our previous apparent disagreement. You say that seniority was the issue, and I have always maintained it was not.
I now believe that it is clear that the order was never really dead. AC management found a convenient weapon that could deflect critism from them, onto the pilots. They wanted ACPA to agree to the memo about the seniority issue before releasing it. The press jumped on that.
Many original AC pilots sympathize with the sentiment, and probably went along with that idea. I don't believe that there is proof that seniority really was the issue, and the only thing would be for AC to produce emails prior to the NO result to support the seniority claim.
The last week has be allowed to keep the seniority in the press, and to allow ACPA to dig a deeper hole for themselves by directing the discussion toward seniority. There were a couple of articles in the National Post and Globe & Mail, at least on this topic.
AC now takes the seniority issue to the CIRB to crush the pilots into submission once again, as was previous done when it looked like with our last (non-CCAA) collective agreement by removing our right to withdraw our services.
Should AC be successful, will have essentially hamstrung ACPA. They will achieved the TA or better, put ACPA into disarray thanks to the OAC group and ACPAs leanings toward the OAC cause, made the pilots look like idiots to the general public and seriously diminished effective tools that ACPA has for saying NO to AC management demands.
Seniority was not the issue. AC manipulated that into one. My opinion is that this is just one more giant step down the slippery slope that of the declining relationship that AC is constanting touting of needing repair. This is not the way to move forward to a better way of doing business. It is an attempt to beat the pilots into line by whatever means necessary. You will comply....or else.
Yet we seem to have a squabble about the vote, you and me, and what the real meaning of that vote was about.
It appears very obvious now, to me at least, that AC management manipulated this NO vote into something other than what it really was, for their benefit, in this AC move to the CIRB.
There NEVER was an overall majority no vote based on the seniority issue, I maintain. There was a small group of the OAC political movement that were vocal about their interest.
AC took that into a press release, which they craftily asked ACPA to vette. AC can now say that ACPA and AC management were on the same page about the no vote, when AC comes before the CIRB.
ACPA has already agreed to the validation of the seniority issue by vetting the AC management press release and agreeing to the content. ACPA is now trapped, they have spoken for the entire pilot group.
Surely it is most unusual for AC to offer up a press release to ACPA prior to AC releasing anything. Was there no suspicion that there may be ulterior motives?
AC is saying to the CIRB that pilots, some or just the people that voted no to the Tentative Agreement, are declaring an illegal strike by conselling the no vote, and that the people did vote no did so on an issue not included in the TA. The result should be nullified. Should AC win, we now move to arbitration. The arbitrator may just impose the TA upon the pilots.
AC obviously wants the 777/787s and from this standpoint it looks like they probably have not cancelled the order. Otherwise, what is the point of going to the CIRB.
On the other issues covered by the AC memo ie work to rule?? what the hell, maybe I am out to lunch, but this is entirely news to me, just as the seniority issue was the reason for the no vote. It seems to me that there are some extremely dangerous political games being played on both sides, by AC management and political factions within ACPA.
So back to our previous apparent disagreement. You say that seniority was the issue, and I have always maintained it was not.
I now believe that it is clear that the order was never really dead. AC management found a convenient weapon that could deflect critism from them, onto the pilots. They wanted ACPA to agree to the memo about the seniority issue before releasing it. The press jumped on that.
Many original AC pilots sympathize with the sentiment, and probably went along with that idea. I don't believe that there is proof that seniority really was the issue, and the only thing would be for AC to produce emails prior to the NO result to support the seniority claim.
The last week has be allowed to keep the seniority in the press, and to allow ACPA to dig a deeper hole for themselves by directing the discussion toward seniority. There were a couple of articles in the National Post and Globe & Mail, at least on this topic.
AC now takes the seniority issue to the CIRB to crush the pilots into submission once again, as was previous done when it looked like with our last (non-CCAA) collective agreement by removing our right to withdraw our services.
Should AC be successful, will have essentially hamstrung ACPA. They will achieved the TA or better, put ACPA into disarray thanks to the OAC group and ACPAs leanings toward the OAC cause, made the pilots look like idiots to the general public and seriously diminished effective tools that ACPA has for saying NO to AC management demands.
Seniority was not the issue. AC manipulated that into one. My opinion is that this is just one more giant step down the slippery slope that of the declining relationship that AC is constanting touting of needing repair. This is not the way to move forward to a better way of doing business. It is an attempt to beat the pilots into line by whatever means necessary. You will comply....or else.
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In addittion to all threats stated by management, there is also a request by management which seems to have gone un-noticed. Management has also requested to the CIRB " A declaration or order finally settling the issue of seniority among
Air Canada pilots in whichever way the Board determines." Wow. How bout that. Look, wether you agree or disagree with what the OAC group did( and for the record I am not 100% in agreement with them) you have to admit that this gives some hope to their cause. Had management done this years ago, we would of had a resounding YES vote. Period! Maybe RM's philosophy of devide and conquer has backfired on him and the rest of us suffer as well. This is the poorest character of leadership I have ever seen.
Air Canada pilots in whichever way the Board determines." Wow. How bout that. Look, wether you agree or disagree with what the OAC group did( and for the record I am not 100% in agreement with them) you have to admit that this gives some hope to their cause. Had management done this years ago, we would of had a resounding YES vote. Period! Maybe RM's philosophy of devide and conquer has backfired on him and the rest of us suffer as well. This is the poorest character of leadership I have ever seen.
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It seems to me that since we were unable to put our own house in order, others will do it for us. Talk about pilots being their own worse enemies, this issue gives new meaning to the word...
Grubby
Remember that old saying "Put two pilots in a room and have three different opinions"
Grubby
Remember that old saying "Put two pilots in a room and have three different opinions"
