Will WJ 4000-hr min stand, in light of AC hiring rumours?
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Will WJ 4000-hr min stand, in light of AC hiring rumours?
As a few have noted over on the Red Team Hiring thread, the hiring department over there may be in somewhat of a state of panic with regards to their ability to attract suitably qualified pilots.
Assuming that this could potentially mean anyone with as low as about 3000 hrs, 500 multi command >12,500 lbs, post secondary ed, second language etc. what does this mean for WJ come fall?
As AC has no concrete minimum, how long will the Westjet be able to maintain their 4000-hr requirement?
In other words, if AC hiring is in a state of panic, shouldn't WJ be as well if not more so? Or is this all a big pile of crap on some internet forum with little basis in reality (apologies to brucelss and Inuksuk, no offense intended).
Ballparking figures that have been thrown around though, it looks like there will be in the range of about 350-700 new jet jobs available in Canada between now and the end of 2006. This is great news!
Assuming that this could potentially mean anyone with as low as about 3000 hrs, 500 multi command >12,500 lbs, post secondary ed, second language etc. what does this mean for WJ come fall?
As AC has no concrete minimum, how long will the Westjet be able to maintain their 4000-hr requirement?
In other words, if AC hiring is in a state of panic, shouldn't WJ be as well if not more so? Or is this all a big pile of crap on some internet forum with little basis in reality (apologies to brucelss and Inuksuk, no offense intended).
Ballparking figures that have been thrown around though, it looks like there will be in the range of about 350-700 new jet jobs available in Canada between now and the end of 2006. This is great news!
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Requirements change as often as underware. WJ will too. Good time to be a "low" time pilot for once. It's been talked about for years. It might actually happen. The pilot shortage just might be upon us. Unlike other countries, Canada does not invite foreign pilots here. WJ may have an even harder time because of their limited fleet type/size. I think most young pilots still dream about widebody transoceanic careers. Only my humble opinion.
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Dockjock.
Ac is in a state of panic because our management has fallen asleep and now find themselves in a panic with regards to timing. The EMBs are on their way and we may not be fully ready to welcome them. Most of our recalled pilots are going on 767, leaving a whole in the EMB. Timing is everything.
Westjet on the other hand don't have any new equipment arriving as far as we know and no real expansion to speak of. There-in lies the lack of panick on their side. Then again, who knows. They seem to be a real exclusive breed.
If you have been keeping up to date with the other thread, you will note some direct quotes from AC management with regards to hiring. I would hardly call that "crap on some internet forum".
Ac is in a state of panic because our management has fallen asleep and now find themselves in a panic with regards to timing. The EMBs are on their way and we may not be fully ready to welcome them. Most of our recalled pilots are going on 767, leaving a whole in the EMB. Timing is everything.
Westjet on the other hand don't have any new equipment arriving as far as we know and no real expansion to speak of. There-in lies the lack of panick on their side. Then again, who knows. They seem to be a real exclusive breed.
If you have been keeping up to date with the other thread, you will note some direct quotes from AC management with regards to hiring. I would hardly call that "crap on some internet forum".
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Perhaps it was my phrasing, sorry. But lets just say that even though they are quotes, this is still the internet.
So basically it is more a panic about timing as opposed to anything else? Still I have to wonder, if 3500 hr pilots could conceivably have a shot at AC, wouldn't that put negative pressure on WJ's hard minimum.
So basically it is more a panic about timing as opposed to anything else? Still I have to wonder, if 3500 hr pilots could conceivably have a shot at AC, wouldn't that put negative pressure on WJ's hard minimum.
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Brucelee,
In all your wisdom on prior posts I find it hard to believe you would sound ( or come across ) so defamatory towards 'low time' pilots. 3500 hours is not bad considering my father was hired at a major in Canada 30 years ago with 300 hours total and no IFR. He constantly asks me why I haven't got a job with AC or the like. I keep telling him that the industry is very different now than it used to be. I have 3200 hours and 1300 hours of jet time and I am still a low time pilot. It has taken me 9 years of slogging around, risking my life, working my ass off to get those hours, and I have loved every minute of it. I think we all need to be reminded how it 'used' to be before we consider how lucky we all think we are now. I suppose we are lucky now compared to the slump we have all endured. 25 years ago I would have been one of the most qualified people in Canada. What happened to those days? Granted things are a lot better now than 6 years ago and I can't think of another profession I'd rather be doing but we deserve what we make.
Forgive me if I am ranting but I am passionate about what I do. I worked damn hard, slogging it out in small aircraft with heaters that don't work, putting my time in working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day and getting paid for 6. I think now that myself and every other '3500 hour low time pilot' deserves some kind of reward.
Signed,
just a low time pilot
In all your wisdom on prior posts I find it hard to believe you would sound ( or come across ) so defamatory towards 'low time' pilots. 3500 hours is not bad considering my father was hired at a major in Canada 30 years ago with 300 hours total and no IFR. He constantly asks me why I haven't got a job with AC or the like. I keep telling him that the industry is very different now than it used to be. I have 3200 hours and 1300 hours of jet time and I am still a low time pilot. It has taken me 9 years of slogging around, risking my life, working my ass off to get those hours, and I have loved every minute of it. I think we all need to be reminded how it 'used' to be before we consider how lucky we all think we are now. I suppose we are lucky now compared to the slump we have all endured. 25 years ago I would have been one of the most qualified people in Canada. What happened to those days? Granted things are a lot better now than 6 years ago and I can't think of another profession I'd rather be doing but we deserve what we make.
Forgive me if I am ranting but I am passionate about what I do. I worked damn hard, slogging it out in small aircraft with heaters that don't work, putting my time in working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day and getting paid for 6. I think now that myself and every other '3500 hour low time pilot' deserves some kind of reward.
Signed,
just a low time pilot
Regards low time pilots - growing up in Baie d'Urfe in the 70's a lot of the neigbors were pilots. The lowest time I ever heard was a friends father was a baggage handler (zero hours) and they came around asking - who wants to be a pilot? It seems the pay wasn't better but more time off - so he took it. 25 years later he was still flying AC!
The good old days
The good old days
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I must be missing something here or you've taken my comments the wrong way. I don't use the term"low time" pilots nor do I undermine your experience. I'm simply stating that if there are no 10.000 hr pilots around then WJ and AC will have to adjust their requirements. In my course at AC, I was one of the lowest time guys at 7,000 hrs. Sure they state a minimum, but in reality they have always hired people with much more than the minimum. In the past AC has never used a fixed number of hours to pass judgement and neither do I. WHAT you have done in aviation, not only HOW much would be my criteria and so is AC's. As far as hard work goes, I , like everyone else have been there, just like you. You don't have to remind me. It's still fresh in my mind. I consider myself lucky to be where I am but not as lucky as my instructors of 25 yrs ago (yes I'm that old) who got in AC with nothing more than Cessna time. I doubt we'll ever see those days again, but certainly companies may have to lower their requirements to fill the seat given what they are paying. That's all.
I must be missing something here or you've taken my comments the wrong way. I don't use the term"low time" pilots nor do I undermine your experience. I'm simply stating that if there are no 10.000 hr pilots around then WJ and AC will have to adjust their requirements. In my course at AC, I was one of the lowest time guys at 7,000 hrs. Sure they state a minimum, but in reality they have always hired people with much more than the minimum. In the past AC has never used a fixed number of hours to pass judgement and neither do I. WHAT you have done in aviation, not only HOW much would be my criteria and so is AC's. As far as hard work goes, I , like everyone else have been there, just like you. You don't have to remind me. It's still fresh in my mind. I consider myself lucky to be where I am but not as lucky as my instructors of 25 yrs ago (yes I'm that old) who got in AC with nothing more than Cessna time. I doubt we'll ever see those days again, but certainly companies may have to lower their requirements to fill the seat given what they are paying. That's all.
Last edited by brucelee; 28th May 2005 at 02:57.
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I am making no bones about time. I was hired at Royal with 3000 hrs exactly.
HOWEVER, do not think the market is bare. My overseas B747 company has 10+ Canadian FO's with 5000+ time and several thousand heavy jet (b747/ b757). All would return for AC.
There are many more. How many guys at Sky or Transat would leave..
There may be jobs opening up at CMA or Perimeter. But there is still plenty of competition for the golden jet job.
HOWEVER, do not think the market is bare. My overseas B747 company has 10+ Canadian FO's with 5000+ time and several thousand heavy jet (b747/ b757). All would return for AC.
There are many more. How many guys at Sky or Transat would leave..
There may be jobs opening up at CMA or Perimeter. But there is still plenty of competition for the golden jet job.
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Certainly Air Canada will have their pick of folks with over 5000 hrs, there is no doubt about that. The question was not really in relation to AC having a problem finding experienced people, but more WJ. Because to a certain extent given WJ's rate of hiring in the past 2-3 yrs (150 pilots/yr), a lot of the pilots with greater than WJ's minimum, had they the inclination to apply there, would have already done so and chances are been hired.
But in those years, WJ had very little in the way of competition for experience pilots (in Canada). Jetsgo can be considered a bit of an aberration given the conditions that went along with that whole deal.
Now in the fall, we will have a situation where WJ and AC are essentially hiring from the same pool of folks, really for the first time. Back in the late 90's when AC was in their last boom, WJ was but a small company with (don't quote me) <10 aircraft.
If AC actually has a requirement for hiring 40 pilots a month next year, and WJ needs 20, which company will be scrambling?
-Westjet has a hard minimum
-Conditions at both companies for the first 3 yrs are more or less the same
-Many people still consider AC to be a better job, even after the CCAA changes (to each their own, let's not debate this)
-AC new hires will be getting in at the start of a wave, while WJ's will be more at the end
-And finally, AC has proven in the past no aversion to hiring folks with less than 4000 hrs
Will they do that again to deliberately put pressure on WJ?
But in those years, WJ had very little in the way of competition for experience pilots (in Canada). Jetsgo can be considered a bit of an aberration given the conditions that went along with that whole deal.
Now in the fall, we will have a situation where WJ and AC are essentially hiring from the same pool of folks, really for the first time. Back in the late 90's when AC was in their last boom, WJ was but a small company with (don't quote me) <10 aircraft.
If AC actually has a requirement for hiring 40 pilots a month next year, and WJ needs 20, which company will be scrambling?
-Westjet has a hard minimum
-Conditions at both companies for the first 3 yrs are more or less the same
-Many people still consider AC to be a better job, even after the CCAA changes (to each their own, let's not debate this)
-AC new hires will be getting in at the start of a wave, while WJ's will be more at the end
-And finally, AC has proven in the past no aversion to hiring folks with less than 4000 hrs
Will they do that again to deliberately put pressure on WJ?
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I don't think there is madness to their method. I could be wrong but when AC hires, the last thing on their mind is WJ. It's going to be good times for pilots of just about any experience level. WJ and AC hiring will have a positive affect right down to new CPL pilots and new instructors. Let's not anylize the thing to death.
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That would be nice
Although I doubt very much that will ever happen.
I heard they have a couple thousand resumes on file. Those would be pilots with 4000 hrs or better. Even if that was only one thousand pilots it is still good.
I think only if the resume pile dried up would you see any change. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a better starting wage across the board but I just doubt it.
Although I doubt very much that will ever happen.
I heard they have a couple thousand resumes on file. Those would be pilots with 4000 hrs or better. Even if that was only one thousand pilots it is still good.
I think only if the resume pile dried up would you see any change. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a better starting wage across the board but I just doubt it.
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WestJet has hired everything from 777 Captains to VFR Twin Otter pilots and the common thread was the 5000, then 4000 hours, we have the 10% A##hole factor like any airline but for the most part everyone is really good to work with at the jobsite. Having said that I really hope they drop the minimums for one reason that no airline should ever think inside a box. How many have ever flown with a 2000 pilot who does a fantastic job compared with a 15,000 hour Hack? Its happened to me and that's why I have the opinion that hours are not revelent and WestJet has missed the boat many times over from such old school thinking.
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On the Av Canada form they are saying that there is going to be a tech exam as part of the interviews at westjet. It will be put together by the training dept and is not multiple choice.
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Sailboat. Amen brother. Good pilots only need have the right attitude. Not 10,000 hrs.
As far as the tech exam goes,gimme a break. What does one study? What is the reference material? Cathay does this and there are some books out there on how to pass the exams. Is it a sort of exclusive club of intellectual pilots? I don't think so. I know some of those Cathay guys. Good pilots but definitely not intellectuals. They passed cause they had the right book or the inside scoop. Or they just had the right overall qualifications. Tech exams is going way too far. In WJ's case, how ironic - more sweat for less pay. A good training department is all that's needed. It ain't rocket science.
As far as the tech exam goes,gimme a break. What does one study? What is the reference material? Cathay does this and there are some books out there on how to pass the exams. Is it a sort of exclusive club of intellectual pilots? I don't think so. I know some of those Cathay guys. Good pilots but definitely not intellectuals. They passed cause they had the right book or the inside scoop. Or they just had the right overall qualifications. Tech exams is going way too far. In WJ's case, how ironic - more sweat for less pay. A good training department is all that's needed. It ain't rocket science.
Last edited by brucelee; 30th May 2005 at 12:56.
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Thread update 9-Sep-05:
Latest rumour out of WJ (3rd hand mind you) is
-reduction of mins to 2500 hrs
-technical interview
-sim eval
-1st yr pay to be increased to $60K
Any WJer's care to comment?
Also, surprising that when I started this thread in May, the AC hiring rumours were rampant, and they needed bodies bodies bodies as fast as possible. Well its nearly 5 months later and they're hired what, 60 guys?
Latest rumour out of WJ (3rd hand mind you) is
-reduction of mins to 2500 hrs
-technical interview
-sim eval
-1st yr pay to be increased to $60K
Any WJer's care to comment?
Also, surprising that when I started this thread in May, the AC hiring rumours were rampant, and they needed bodies bodies bodies as fast as possible. Well its nearly 5 months later and they're hired what, 60 guys?
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Dockjock.
"Also, surprising that when I started this thread in May, the AC hiring rumours were rampant, and they needed bodies bodies bodies as fast as possible. Well its nearly 5 months later and they're hired what, 60 guys?"
The hiring started in July, not long after your first post. We're now in Sep. That means the hiring has been going on for only a month and a half and we have already hired about sixty. That's not good enough for you? The plan is still to hire over 600 within the next couple of years. That's not good enough for you? The plan is still to hire every month with at least one course per month, sometimes two courses. I don't know what your problem is. Our training department is operating at max capacity. I don't see WJ hiring and even when they do it will only be a fraction of what AC is doing. Good luck on your endevours to become a WJ pilot if you're not already one of them. Sounds like you will fit right in.
"Also, surprising that when I started this thread in May, the AC hiring rumours were rampant, and they needed bodies bodies bodies as fast as possible. Well its nearly 5 months later and they're hired what, 60 guys?"
The hiring started in July, not long after your first post. We're now in Sep. That means the hiring has been going on for only a month and a half and we have already hired about sixty. That's not good enough for you? The plan is still to hire over 600 within the next couple of years. That's not good enough for you? The plan is still to hire every month with at least one course per month, sometimes two courses. I don't know what your problem is. Our training department is operating at max capacity. I don't see WJ hiring and even when they do it will only be a fraction of what AC is doing. Good luck on your endevours to become a WJ pilot if you're not already one of them. Sounds like you will fit right in.