Possibly he suspects that they are going to destroy the company?

Once again you (pl) seem incapable of answering the questions posed, you just question the authority of the questioner.

So, Again.

1. Why have BASSA not polled the membership on how they would like to go forward?

2. Why have BASSA not seen/acted on the independent auditors report on BAs financial status?

3. Why has BASSA not been turning up to negotiations so close to the deadline?

4. Why did the BASSA leadership withold key info about the pilots deal?

The so called evidence is gone because the message was moderated by the author herself. Look under the thread PPRUNE Plan of Action on page 5. The original post was actually straight under your post about "ignore pprune and the weridos who post on there".

Irrelevant who I am - this is an anonymous bulletin board precisely as it is the only means of permitting free speech (within the rules set by the moderators).

Don't try to change the topic - the point was that quite a few people actually want the airline to survive, so that it can pay them a salary in the future.

I wrote, as the BBC headlined, that "Actually, Virginia, BBC News reports the following: "Almost 7,000 British Airways staff have applied for voluntary pay cuts".

BBC's now-published full report - 800 people work for nothing, Another 4,000 workers are taking unpaid leave for varying amounts of time, while 1,400 people have volunteered to work part-time.

That is 6,200 people who are volunteering for voluntary pay cuts of some sort or another. I never said "working for free".


A plain example of someone taking "facts" in part and using them to distort the argument...

It's those kinds of comments that makes me greatly worried. Another crew I met on a trip a couple of weeks ago said she would rather have the company go bust than having her terms and conditions changed. I also met a crew member who said that we had NO OPTION but to strike.

His points are neither contentious, nor even containing an ounce of opinion!!

Answer fact-based questions. Seemingly, BASSA and die-hard supporters are incapable of doing so!

It is absolute fact that BASSA have lied to their membership about the pilots' deal. In fact, in doing so means that any strike ballot would be conceived on inaccurate facts and would be overruled by the high court.

That is not opinion - that is how the law works! Pity that the cabin crew union don't get it.

PiB up until this day your posts have made a lot of sense. I'm afraid not now.
Hotel Mode's points are very very valid and DO deserve an answer.

Maybe not an answer to us but to members inside your union who would like to know what is going on and have a vote on how your Reps negotiate with the company and what is offered.

The questions should be easily answered in an open union without being crucified.

BASSA isn't saying anything and because of that the members don't know what to say. Why not? Because the members don't know anything.

Aer Lingus were within days of going bust in 2001, their cash flow was primarily transatlantic long haul, which dried to a trickle in the aftermath of 9/11. They and WW had little choice. Sound familiar?

They are still in existence, they still have jobs, and look who else is there in Dublin competing with them. MOL has said he's looking at long haul now. Look familiar?

So my previous post was correct. It's all about power for Bassa.

So ask your reps why they aren't turning up to the negotiations? Ask how many hours they've been in 'intensive negotiations' with BA in the last fortnight. Clue: you don't need all your fingers on one hand...nor your thumb.

Pib,

It's one thing to be a BASSA supporter..... but at least ask questions and think about the issues! Analyse the information available for yourself. Is that too much to ask?

It is after all not just your future but all of ours!

And for the record, at first (6 months ago) I didn't believe a word that was coming out of waterside. I even questioned my own union by multiple e-mails, one-to-ones, the forum etc

SS

BASSA Supporter
 

So how do you all know that the reps are not turning up for negotiations?

It is just malicious rubbish. You do not know what is going on.

If any of you were in BASSA you would know that they have polled their members. Even Walsh is backtracking on the state of the airline, claiming he has "over-egged" the situation.

Aer Lingus would never have gone bust. What absolute rubbish. It was 85% owned by the Irish government at that time.

Nuigini, how many times.......the negotiations are in private. There will be a report back

I'm ashamed to say that I went through the last spat that bassa had with BA pretty much in ignorance of the issues and of the full implications and legalities of IA, employment law etc. I allowed myself to be swept along on the tidal wave of emotions displayed at the time, mainly on CF and the bassa forum.

Once that little episode was over and done with, I promised myself never to put myself into such a vulnerable, uninformed and therefore weak position. So this time round, I have listened as much as possible to both parties, researched points I was uncertain of, listened to what debate there has been and taken timeout to seriously consider my position. I use the word debate here in it's fullest sense, so have pretty much avoided CF and bassa this time round as those forums seem usually to consist of one person posting a statement and 101 others saying "yes". (That assumes that the original statement towed the bassa line. If it didn't it was just ignored or shouted down, but very rarely "discussed"). All very reassuring, but not at all helpful or constructive. An untruth repeated a thousand times does not become a truth. It does however take-on a degree of weight, especially to those either unable or unwilling to dig deeper, as I was previously. I did notice though that the talk of IA and of "bringing the airline down" started fairly early on, or dare I say, prematurely.

I have now resigned from bassa (as I stated in an earlier post). Upto this time however, I have read the flyers and emails sent by them. I think it a great shame that they have used so many words to say so little of any use. There is no attempt to encourage the membership to think, only to follow. The lack of any clear information (and I fully understand the "blackout" while negotiations continue), guidance or reference to places where information might be found is a big failing on bassa's part. I am unsure as to wether that "failing" is deliberate or not. Ultimately, I found some of the flyers to be particularly insulting, childish and a clear attempt at coercion.

Welcome to those of you coming now from CF/bassa forums to Pprune. Can I ask that you do take time to read through this entire thread. It will firstly save us from too much tedious repetition and may even enlighten or inspire you a little.

I feel bad that by leaving bassa, I forego any possibility of my actually managing to change anything about it, about the way it thinks and acts. However, I seriously doubt that that was ever a possibility in the first place. Previous posters have already made it clear though that my "type" were not welcome anyway. I am now a free-spirit. It feels great.

Guys

I have contributed several times to this thread. generally I have advocated that in order to come to agreement it is better to negotiate.

Clearly, in this situation, the previous years of intransigence shown by both sides has resulted in an impasse, and an imminent 'failure to agree' with all that that implies.

Whatever is said here is immaterial, it is becoming clear that there will be no negotiated settlement and that after 1st July, in the next week, the strategies will become clear, with likely both sides digging in. I suspect that company law will favour the company, and that if there if the slightest illegality in BASSA's ballot (for example balloting over an issue conceded by BA), that they will be snakes and laddered back to zero and have to re-ballot, etc.

In the meantime, the BASSA mandate will weaken, and crumble, and by default, BA 'new fleet; wil be all persausive.

It has been mentioned on another forum about BASSA not being present at today's meeting and that there has only been three hours of negotiations.

A member says it's very hard to believe or there there must be a good reason for them not being present. If this information comes from PPRUNE it should also be disregarded straight away.

In terms of who is turning up and who isn't turning up, I can factually let everyone know that both side have and do behave like playground children, by not turning up when promising to do so.

There are of course legit reasons for this on both sides of the table.:ok:

BASSA Supporter
 

NO Top Bunk the mandate will not weaken. You can second guess all you like, but you will have to wait.

On this thread BASSA and its 11,600+ members are being pilloried, yet only two years ago these 'militant' workers agreed to less retirement benefits, which in effect meant that most crew will have to work five years longer for the same pension....that is if Walsh does not close the final salary scheme to exisiting members as well. In 2007 BA gained a £400 million instant saving and have been making savings yearly of £80 million, yet the NAPS fund is still in trouble. Where have the savings from out move to T5 gone? How can a company haemorrhage so much money so quickly, unless the management are incompetent?

Now the company is in trouble again, but there have been so many management failures and criminal conduct. Gareth Kirkwood and David Noyes signed confidentiality agreements after their departure and are still on the pay roll allegedly.

Mr Walsh has demonstrated 'Klepto-FredtheShreddist-handinthetillistic' behaviour at Aer Lingus and now the same is happening at BA. There is no confidence in his leadership and quite honestly anyone else would be better.

Let's see in the next few weeks whether he can pull off his coup.

The tempo seems to be getting better as we slide to D day (30Jun).

Have been trying to work out the cost of BA CC and how it sits with this so called market rate, can work out BA CC are market leaders, can also work out BA CC have a market leading life/work balance and I guess this is in a big part down to the CC unions over the years.

If the CC unions have done such a super job over the years, other BA staff or even outsiders should not expect the CC unions to back down just because you think it's a good idea for whatever the reasons you can mention, am sure the CC have maintained such good T+Cs because their union has done a good job in the past.

Trying to understand the allowances that get paid to all BA flying staff on top of their basic pay is mind boggoling, phone/meals/location/destination/eary-starts/late-starts/diversion/late/flight-times/long/short/box payments/towels/reading-lights-not-working/heating-not-good-enough(bunks)/wheelchairs/stby/hotel accom at main base/etc/etc, and I wonder how many I missed out !!!

The pilots are happy with their deal and they want the CC to deal/agree as this will be in the best interests of the pilots, BALPA will have pilots well informed.

Back to numbers and I came up with 15K CC to market rate could be a saving of about £300M per year that's a lot of savings (15k CC X £20k to market rate = £300M PA)

The history of CC T+Cs and the possible savings that can be made for the long term make the gap too big to sort over the table, looks like some pain coming in Jul/Aug, will be intresting to watch.

out of touch
 

********************************************************
"And contracts are always being revisited and rewritten. That's life and what is happening here. We would all like the changes to be temporary but sadly I doubt that will be an option in these times. The revenue the company earns is in sharp decline and the costs need to be aligned with the market. BA have looked at all areas and decided what is required and achievable by each area, hence different targets this time around - it is about survival of the fittest and still being in the game in 2011."
**********************************************************
TopBunk, your reply really shows,in my opinion, how out of touch you are with what is really going on.
First of all, allow me to tell you that if BA acted properly we would not be hundred of thousand of pounds out of pocket.
Secondly,in my opion, you would not find a single person in the cabin crew comunity who would be opposed to temporary measures to help the company out of this crisis, on the understanding that 'just like the pilots' they are rewarded once the company is in profit again.

But any changes has to be done properly and start from the top, working all the way down to the bottom.
Not a single department should be singled out for any reasons.
The higher earner you are the more your contribution should be.
it should be as simple as that....
lets be united on this and lets show the company that we us pilots and cabin crew can work together and support each other just like we do when onboard an aircraft.
safe flying

BASSA Supporter
 

Gg. I still think you need not be so defensive. No one is attacking you personally because you hold an alternative view. I am now trying to picture you with thick skin and that big strong backbone....

The BALPA document would not make any difrerence because we are not being offered the same deal. This is union busting remember.

I do not know where such information about BASSA not turning up for meetings comes from. In the last dispute the same accusations were made and turned out to be untrue.

There is a lot of misinformation being put about with the Press being briefed against us by BA and of course, forums such as this are ideal for spreading false rumours and gossip.

Please understand that Walsh was/is a past master at brinkmanship when he was an IALPA rep, but even he has overdone it with all the threats about the company being unviable. This is all part of the cut and thrust when two opposing forces meet. We as a group of employees are not making any demands of BA, it is all one way traffic and we are playing a defensive game. We only want to make a fair contribution to saving BA from Walsh.

If Walsh wants to force through all of his impositions, he will have to factor in the cost of industrial action and the likelihood that UNITE via the Labour government, will not allow him to smash the union. Even Rod Eddington said that he needed the unions in BA, otherwise he could not run a company so big as BA without having such representation of the employees. With Walsh, no such niceties are relevant.

And 3 months ago you wouldnt have met any flight crew who would have taken the permanant 5% pay cut + productivity we have. Our Union showed us the details and explained BAs now Permanant revenue problems, which is how it got though. BASSA seems unwilling to explain those problems to its members.

Every other dept in BA has modernised in the last 10 years except 1. If that means theres now more needing to be saved in that department, then thats the way it is.

The good news is, if IFCE (or any other dept) dont make their full savings, then Flt ops dont have to make any at all. That I think is a measure of Willies confidence.

PiB, I'm simply answering the questions you ask.

I really can't be bothered to have another argument with you. We've been through this so many times before that it's getting boring.

Gg

BASSA Supporter
 

It is not an "argument", it is a debate.

There is a difference.

PiB's contributions sound so uncannily similar to SP's, they could be the same person, but what they have in common is a peculiarly distorted view of the world which I found endemic to many crew when I joined BA over a decade ago.

The focusing on WW as a personality, endless harping on about his track record is all very well. But this isn't The Apprentice where someone points a gun and says "You're fired". Walsh is in the driving seat and he will be doing the pointing and there will be a lot of pain.

The BASSA view seems a long way from the facts I read in the financial pages and the company results.

Romans44, if you are crew and you feel 'singled out' it may be because most other groups have taken their medicine and are now looking forward to the recovery. BASSA are refusing to listen to economic reality. You are so far out of touch you have already been left behind, I fear that your chance to sort things amicably has already passed. You will have notice on your contracts next week, I reckon, all in one fell swoop.

Several posters on here have been trying to warn you. BASSA are like holidaymakers on the beach before a Tsunami - the sun is shining but it's gone quiet, the water has disappeared, no one has realised why, and in a short while, it will be back in a very large and destructive wave.

The other employment groups, meanwhile, have heeded the warnings and already paddled out into the ocean. They will only notice the Tsunami as a slight disturbance....

PiB said

and so far he has been doing rather well again, ever since the "leak" of the Columbus document.

In a debate, you respond to the points made though, PiB. You're not.

So, Again.

I gather that BASSA failed to show up today at a meeting to present their counter-proposals.

If I was a BASSA member I'd want to know why.

Is this some sort of perceived brinkmanship where BASSA show BA just how important they are by not showing up, like a Hollywood diva at a press interview?

To clarify why Bassa have not released details of the company's proposals.

From Bill Francis email to cabin crew. 25/06/09.

Since then I have been in discussion with your unions and I know many of you are keen to know how these talks are going.

I am sure you will understand that I cannot say too much at the moment because we have agreed with Unite that we will keep the details private during the talks. This is to give us the best possible chance of reaching agreement before our June 30 deadline.

Can we now stop challenging why this info is not in the public/crew domain.

BASSA Supporter
 

You have no idea what is going on OverStress, so please don't pretend you do.

Bill Francis the Head of IFCE wrote to all BA's cabin crew today. He said that he has been in discussions with the unions, nowhere did he say that no one failed to turn up at any time. So as I have said before, just nonsense and drivel by the Flight Crew attack dogs here. (Know who you are?)

There are no details as agreed between BA and UNITE. The union did present its first written proposal today.

So we shall see.

pc767,

The reason we asked why Lizanne didn't feel it necessary to publish the latest "offer" was because she put in the news letter that she didn't want to bore you with the nitty gritty. Surely you can understand the questions surrounding this?

Gg

As you have no idea who I am, or who I know, that is a rather pointless statement.

BASSA failed to attend talks today. That is a fact.

Confused
 

Okay, I've been fairly noncommittal so far on this thread, as I know, and have friends in BASSA back at BA, but I have to say that, as I still receive the daily email from BASSA and as an ex member still have access to read over "Crew Forum", my blood really did reach a point close to boiling today.

I was, a proud, BASSA member. I thought I saw that they stood for the same values I used to when I was a Union rep before coming to BA. Last time the gloves came off, so to speak, over a list of points - which now I forget - I let myself get swept along with it to the point that I thought I would happily have brought the Bacon Butties to the Picket line. I have never thought of myself as unintelligent or gullible so I asked myself why, (having realised now how petty that argument was), I got so entangled in the IA machine. Well I will tell you why, BASSA have one very strong skill - and that is winding up their membership.

They're doing exactly the same this time. Reading through CF you will see far more hatred directed towards the flight crew than you will ever have seen levied upon the Cabin Crew on this forum. Instead of the points about the Union (BASSA), and the out dated agreements that are raised here, you see pure venom and unsubstantiated drivel. I don't understand it. I believe BA Cabin Crew to be amongst the best in the world and indeed a highly intelligent bunch but it seems this whole issue has some riled up into a frenzy you would expect from children fighting over the best toy at play group.

As I see it what the company has asked for (and what has been suggested here) is thus:

A re-negotiation of the disruption agreement so that every time LHR is fog bound the following of industrial agreements does not lead to a bill running into the millions for BA.

Looking into making the old fleets more productive i.e. cutting down on duty hours on WW and increasing Flight hours on EF.

A new fleet which will eventually replace the old fleets as natural attrition reduces their man power. (This I agree needs to be handled carefully).

Other than that there is scope to re-examine some other things such as crew compliments which was inevitable given BASSA's slip at LGW.

Nobody, so far as we are aware, has suggested a Pay Cut or a reduction in allowances (though maybe a restructuring of them to make them more predictable would be wise).

Nobody wants to see people out of work/in the dole queue/facing foreclosure on their mortgage etc.

None of these points seem entirely unreasonable and yet anyone who seems to agree that maybe they are points which can be worked from is either Willy Walsh in disguise or deserves a punch in the nose or is "not fit to be in charge of an aircraft".

Ridiculous, and highly disappointing! (I don't know what else to say!)

(Though I will reiterate I don't want to see anybody suffer but in these hard times surely a bit of give is necessary? Maybe though as I am now on the evil side of the door I have ceased to be of any relevance).

I will vote NO to Strike!
 

There are some excellent balanced and informative posts on here from cc, pilots and passengers. Any intelligent, reasonable crew member can see it makes a refreshing change from CrewForum, BASSA or even ESS which has now degenerated into Get Willie Out chanting (no pun intended). Shouldn't we ignore the rantings from the BASSA camp, and channel all the level-headedness and logical thinking to find a way to harness the voices of the non-militant crew who do want to save this company? If we leave it until the ballot time comes, it may be too late.

TorC and Andy – I fully understand why you feel the need to resign from BASSA but you will lose your right to vote and that vote is going to be important! Please rejoin either branch of UNITE just to get a vote

As time is running out, we need to focus on finding a solution rather than simply debating the problem. This is the only forum that may just be able to help us do that.

I just want to reiterate as i probably said on page 2 of this thread or something. Nobody here wants CC to lose major amounts of cash, its yours, your union fought for it etc. What we just cannot get is the total refusal to look at any permanant changes. Stuff like the disruption agreement and low productivity on shorthaul would save millions and millions, lose the 16th crew member on MRU etc, maybe make the CSD join the service like very other airline, get a sensible hourly rate, and with it a bidding system and yet more money is saved and I promise you nobody would notice a change in lifestyle. Instead all you get is secrecy, pointless circular arguments but never any facts.

I really hope BASSA has a plan here, because you can be damn sure Willy does, and he is ruthless.

Matt101,

Thank you for your last post. You talk a huge amount of sense (as do others on this thread).

I have to completely agree about the venom and hostility towards company, flight crew, managers and any other random non-Bassa person.

It's such a shame, really, that they really can't see what they're doing.

Gg

Well GG I just think you and some others on here (Cabin Crew) as well as the flight crew/non flying staff who present an alternative view point are getting a rather bum wrap on CF - in fact I think it is down right nasty - As a rule I don't usually rant unless I think there is something that needs to be said! (Something needed to be said! lol).

If anyone from CF is reading I am happy for you to paste my post to that forum and let me know and debate it there with you. So long as you're nice.

hello, my first post - be gentle please!
I'm a lurker usually on crew forum but I can't believe the animosity displayed there to anyone who dares disagree with the "popular" take on things. However, I think I'm not alone (loads don't post but lurk - I watched the gang picking on people who dare have an original thought) and thanks to someone there high-lighting this thread, I expect you'll see more of us here. It does seem a more sane place and respectful of others opinions

FTW: welcome to PPRuNe, the truth is on here, a lot of nonsense as well, but you will also find facts. True ones!

Another lurker here. The attitudes of some posters here remind me of the rants of "Red Robbo" in the big British Leyland dispute decades ago. I hope wiser heads will prevail and remember that the ultimate result of that dispute was the failure of the company. It still rankles with me that some union representatives almost seemed to regard that as a success! They were in possession of industrial agreements which were past their time, of which they were not prepared to let go. Intransigence in attitude used against a company in trouble can have only one outcome.

Negotiation is just that, some give and take is necessary to overcome (hopefully) temporary difficulties. I note that some BA employees have agreed to work unpaid/ time off without pay in order to help preserve the company for which they work. I suspect that some of the correspondents on this thread are not amongst them.

They may end up not having a job to protect.

FTW and Dawdler,

Welcome on board! Good to "see" fresh faces here.

Gg

The sad thing is that BASSA seem to be attempting to tell their entire membership that is it impossible that BA go bankrupt and the recession is not as bad as WW makes it out to be.

From 'Times Online' about Corus, formally British Steel:

(My bold)

Even Unite is accepting of the problems:

So, can the Government bail out every failing business? Nope. They have offered Corus £5 million in 'training support', how long would that last BA?

BASSA harp on about the destruction of contracts, the inability to live off of what BA are offering. For a start I very much doubt those statements. Sure the adjustment will be painful but sustainable. As has been pointed out many, many times before on this thread, this adjustment is little more than what other departments have done slowly and less painfully over the past 5 years. Those departments are already at the point BA want CC to be.

Consider however the possible consequences of ill informed and illogical IA. There are, as far as I can see three alternatives with varying degrees of probability.

1)At the bottom of the success probability scale is that the board see the IA as a direct attack on the girls and boys of the CC department and as PiB has alluded to, we can't have sexist bullying. So they sack the demon known as WW and the world returns to the land of milk and honey. First Class Pax and rich business men flock back through the doors of T5 in droves and off we go with a more BASSA malleable CEO at the helm.

Probability of success? 0.0000000001%

2) IA is called, WW activates his back pocket SOSR legal plan and the P45's start flooding into the post. The union call foul and demands an employment Tribunal. BA agrees but ties it up in legal red tape for 2-3 years. In the mean time, with forward bookings down over the winter, routes being trimmed and aircraft laid up, no slot flying restrictions and being cheaper not to fly than to fly, the company activates 2000+ temporary 11 month contract CC. Welcome to no job, long ET with a punitive payment at the end.

Probability of success? 85-90%

3) IA called, forward bookings drop to zero, the city loses all confidence in BA as an investment opportunity. Suppliers demand cash up front as IA has destroyed to forward going viability of the company. Cash reserves plummet on the costs. Share prices nosedive and a corporate hostile buyout ensues. ALL contracts of ALL 40,000 employees get reviews. Those that are militant get booted out. Pension disappears (investors payback) and the remaining 20-25,000 employees get allocated new contracts. All because BASSA would rather bring the company down than accept change like the pathetic, childish entity that it it. I wonder what the forward working environment would be like? Frosty one would assume.

Probability of success? 10%

So, to all on the CC forum that I am sure this will be cut and pasted, the idea of IA is, possibly ill advised. WW will have a legal plan in his back pocket. Irrespective of what he has done previously it is my firm belief that the board have him in the position he is in now as CEO for exactly this reason and he WILL NOT SQUANDER IT!

The pain will be borne by all in the company and the backlash could last many, many years.

Don't let a petulant union drag you to the brink of disaster. It looks nasty now and only a few days to sort it out. If BASSA could be bothered to turn up. The only hope is that Unite, who obviously have a grip on what is happening in the real world, give BASSA a good shake and tell them to grow up. Until then your union is putting your jobs on the line with the minimum of communication, for whatever reason, and no sight of any of the adjustments BA is demanding.

Remember, when bashing BALPA, BALPA kept all of its members informed through forums, newsletters, meetings, podcasts etc. We knew exactly the cost savings required at all points along the process. Members were polled on the subject of VR and then negotiations tailored to achieve the members wishes. Does this sound familiar? Nope. Instead BASSA announce a meeting after the deadline and a news blackout? Great.

I'm sure salient points will be cherry picked for the Bassa forum but here is the whole post. Enjoy.

As to those CC who are as aghast at the inept handling of this by BASSA as the other departments are. I really feel for you all and I hope against hope that this can get sorted in an adult manner to the benefit of both sides. BA is a great company to work for and I hope it can continue so without a few rotten apples from BASSA spoiling the load.

I await the BASSA forum foot soldiers 'constructive' criticism. :rolleyes: