I'm still speechless over SP's comments regarding LGW crew. These comments are incredibly rude and I would like an apology. (Not that I'm holding my breath...)

The Bassa proposal is awful. End of story. It's to protect the minority of very senior crew and it should now be blindingly obvious to everyone else.

Sorry to sound annoyed, but seriously, this is bad news

Gg

Classic
 

There is an all-time classic over on ess:

"Well done to bassa. I don't agree with many of their proposals but i support my union. Roll on the 6th of July, i think it will be an interesting day..."

What?!!!!!!!!

747-436,

This is nothing new.

Everything has to go through BASSA.

Leaving LHR with one crew down has to be approved. They don't always give its permission. Remember the snow storm earlier this year with all those delays and cancellations. BASSA let some five flights leave LHR with one crew down but kept a DFW bound flight (I think it was DFW) on the ground for hours because they thought enough flights had gone with one crew down.

If WW crew are to operate a EF service they need approval. Vice versa too.

TorC,

Do you think that's shocking? If you have access to CF you should sit down and read the comments made by most members.

nuigini

I gave up on CF a while ago, it depressed me.

But at least I had a good laugh reading the bassa proposal :rolleyes:

SP

How can you really claim the c/c rostering system is efficient with so many 24 hour availabilty days rostered immediately after MBT's with the following trip non-flexible which means the crew cannot be used on these availability days?

I realise a bidding system would be far more complex for the c/c because unlike the pilots the c/c fly on more than one aircraft type.

However other airlines manage to operate a c/c bidding system with multi aircraft types very effeciently, ask some of them and you will probably find the crew would not want to go back to the old fashioned rostered system you currently have.

The reason Jean there has been so much 24hr av, is because BA have run with a lot of surplus crew for self-serving political reasons to do with their aspirations to start a new fleet at LHR.

BA wold never agre to a bidding system for cabin crew because the Pilots Bidline is so costly and inefficient.

Hi SP

On the 23 June you wrote:

Why then have BASSA offered permanent changes to BA now, without prior consultation of the membership? Do you still support BASSA, after this blatant misrepresentation of their members?

Also, SP, if BA's cabin crew are fed up with us, they can choose to not join or read this thread, or they can come here themselves and tell us they're fed up. They don't need you to do it for them.

You perhaps are a BASSA rep, but you weren't elected to attempt to censor PPRune.

You will see nothing but honesty from pilots and most crew here, SP, you will find no bullying either.

Can you say the same about yourself? Please stick to the issues of this thread and if you want to criticise bidline, why not visit the terms and endearment forum where you will be greeted with great curiosity!

SP, a number of interesting things have appeared on this thread over the last few months, not withstanding the CAA figures which showed that on average we cost our employer, on average, around £14000 per head than our competitor Virgin.

These independent figures prove that certain members of our community receive a very large remuneration package when compared to other members of our community.

As you will be aware, I have been unimpressed by the actions of BASSA, and particularly Lizanne Malone, who I feel is with-holding facts from her members.

Could I ask you what figure, in pounds, that BA could save by removing 'Bidline' from our colleagues in the Flight Deck?

I like the idea of us all claiming back our subscriptions from BASSA - I wonder if there is any real mileage in that?

BASSA have, contrary to the confidentiality agreement of both sides, published both proposals just to leave them hanging in the air. The speculation, and misinterpretation of the facts on other forums is quite scary. They are asking what ground duties we will have to perform. :ugh: They have no understanding of the Fixed Monthly Duty Payment and the fact that it could be a benefit, particularly as pointed out earlier in relation to New Fleet. They have not read deep enough to realise it does not include meal allowances, but rather only the variable pay. They are muddling facts from both proposals, and they are calling for strike. BASSA, with only two days to go and having created this mayhem, is simply sitting back allowing the confusion and anxiety to perpetuate.

I have known for years that BASSA were incompetent. The extent of their incompetence has left even me flabergasted.

I sincerely hope that the majority of my colleagues take the time to read and digest both documents very carefully and understand what the real implications are if we do not agree something soon.

PC767,

Steady on - it's not a hatred of BASSA and crew. I don't hate crew in any sense, I'm wed to one and I genuinely enjoy the company of those I work with. However, I'm disappointed in BASSA and the selective use of information that they operate with. Our reps handed your chairperson the putative pilot agreement in its' entirety in order to maintain clarity and so that no ambiguity might be brought to bear in inter-union dealings. That she then chose to not disseminate it to you in toto suggests to me that there is more at play than meets the eye.

As for the cheeseboard, it's a real shame that you raise that as I feel it reduces your hitherto reasoned arguments on here to the slightly histrionic level of SP. At the risk of rehashing some very old facts, we gave away the cheeseboard in order to assist in funding the retirement package of the remaining Flight Engineers in the airline after the 747 Classic aircraft were grounded post 9/11. You might, if so minded, draw a contra-analogy with the manner in which BASSA appears (I say appears, as I'm aware that behind the scenes negotiations continue apace - or at least I fervently hope they do) to be willing to cut LGW adrift. SP's comments regarding the relative professionalism of LHR and LGW crews were some of the most petulant and professionally disloyal words I've ever seen written.

As an aside, my CSD wife who's sitting next to me has just informed me that LGW only lag a couple of percentage points behind LHR on the GPM scores. Not bad at all for a crew working to leaner numbers with less current experience. I rather think that speaks volumes. You, no doubt, will choose to disagree, presumably with vague rabble-rousing soundbites.

I dont really see what the rumour about BASSAs proposal is. Its barely literate, uncosted, and clearly put together in a hurry. Much like many of the posters here it chooses to completely ignore the position of others (in this case BA) and rather than discussing them, changes the subject completely and goes off in a different direction.

Nearly 50% of it is spent discussing MId east B2Bs that present no saving, or crewing changes on an aircraft shortly to leave the fleet. The rest is a cobbling together of other unions/groups work with no clue how that work came to be concluded. Plus a lot of protection clauses for the senior crew as ever.

PC 767

It has nothing to do with personal animosity, nor indeed "hatred". It is a quite reasonable unwillingness to stand idly by and watch a few selfish, deluded or ill informed individuals do their best to destroy the employer that feeds, clothes and houses me and my family.

If you believe, as I do, that there are those within BASSA who have an unrealistic view of both the company's, and their own, commercial strength, then I have a duty to try and correct that view by reasoned debate. Emotions simply do not come into it.

The attacks on Pilot agreements have been wholly instigated by both BASSA and their members as a crowd pleaser to make their own feeble efforts look marginally less incompetent. I think that trick has now had its day.

Mr Bunker. The issue of the cheese board was merely an example of how rumour becomes unsustained fact. I have no interest in your cheese board, nor for that matter with any of your T&Cs. I haven't worked to achieve them, I do not benefit from them, nor can I alter them. I believe SP has mistakenly tried to move the discussion away from the suggested content. BA and Project Columbus III.

The point is everybody seems to say that Bassa do not negotiate beyond 'no' and that the pilots were disgruntled at the loss of a cheese board. Neither is true. I cannot accept the argument that Bassa do not negotiate. Even the head of IfCE acknowledges that they do. I cannot state with any truth that Bassa sit in those negotiations simply saying 'no'. And neither can anyone else. What has happened in this debate is that it has been reduced to such heresay. Bassa say 'no', Bassa lie, the chairperson of Bassa lies. I don't agree with SP's stance but I can see how his back was raised. His retailiation has only caused the anti Bassa community to dig in even further. I count 4 or 5 protaganists from both sides on this site. Fortunately they do not represent the views of 3500 pilots, or 14000 cabin crew.

It would be a lot better if we didn't repeatedly catch the BASSA leadership peddling lies and half truths to their members about pilots. Why do they do that?

I agree that there is a lot of spin and hype over these talks, but your contention that

Does not really square with the rambling, barely literate document that is the fruits of their labours. If that is the result of many hours of ceaseless toil by a team of professional negotiators then BASSA have a big problem.

Also

whilst undoubtedly true is surely not an argument against debate by those who DO feel strongly enough to post? If followed to its logical conclusion then there is no point in ever contributing to an anonymous forum as there is no guarantee that your views are supported by anyone else?

PC767,

Firstly my apologies for mis-interpreting the thrust of your analogy. However, I've not said that BASSA don't negotiate either. I have however said that their direction concerns me. Whether or not those concerns prove to be valid remains to be seen. I am certainly concerned at the perceived unwillingness to disseminate all information handed to them in person by our reps and to selectively use it to paint our agreement in a different light to that which it actually is.

Such, it appears, is life.

RV.

The reason I believe it is fortunate that the protaganists are in a minority is that if the polorised views were representative then we would have no hope, Revolution would be on the cards.

I still have hope. I believe that in the first instance the cut of date for negotiations will be altered. I find it odd that both sides table written proposals then take the weekend off, leaving only one day to negotiate. Of course this is based on the lack of actual indepth information about the course of the proposals.

I cannot rid myself of the small concern that Walsh doesn't want talks to succeed. He seems to be doing his best to talk the business down in the press, under the guise of being a realist. I would imagine a realist would under stand the need for caution and confidence where future custom is concerned.

Nope, nope, not here .......................

I've looked through a lot of bid-packs/ rosters and I can't find SP's 1 trip a month senior pilot:ugh: ...... I've found trainers doing a recency trip during a "sim" month, and I've found the odd long haul part-timer who does one trip a month during their Part Time Month, I've found the odd :bored: manager doing a recency trip, but I can't, anywhere, find a full time non-management, non-trainer pilot consistently doing one trip a month every month...........in fact I'd suggest that given Bid Line Rules :ok: it's down right impossible and that SP misunderstood what he heard.

But hey ho, never let facts get in the way of a good soundbite

BA wants to save £82 million pounds. BASSA claims their proposal offers this.

Still amazed over their suggestion for further B2B's which seems to be their central point in the proposal. I can't understand how this would save the company.

PC767 - that is because they have just said NO to BA's Proposal by tabling their own, completely polarised and unrepresentative of the members' views, proposal!

With that aside, the Unite National Secretary has today sent no less than 3 letters to BA. Good news I hear you ask? Asking for talks to resume perhaps?

Err no I'm afraid not. The subject matter is:
A. Underming (his spelling mistake not mine) BA's position (last week's publicity)
B. Harrassment of employees (due to unpaid work request)
C. First Staff travel for Board Members (I kid you not)

So with only two days to go the thing uppermost in the National Secretary's mind is -- Whether board members and their families should be allowed to travel in First.

It beggars belief.

Is this really what they are paid to do? I so want my subscription money back.:*

Board members have been travelling (mit familly) in first for about 40 years to my knowledge. Why should it now seem an issue?

The Bassa proposal smacks of a lack of preparation and thought. It, together with the pointless letters to WW, show they are "playing the man, not the ball", to paraphrase our own mods.

The pilots' pay deal, which was negotiated over months and costed with agreement from both management and Balpa to achieve known, quantifiable savings, came to 2.61% of basic pay. Bassa simply state "2.61% pay cut for us too, oh and an LTIP, just like they got" (So much for our "rolling over too easily").
Is it an attempt to once again hitch a ride with Balpa's negotiators, or a sop to their own members who demand equal treatment as pilots, or is it a carefully crafted proposition that hits the targets and coincidentally matches the pilots deal to two decimal places??

The allowances arrangement is complex, inefficient and therefore expensive. The obvious answer is a complete restructuring, whilst minimising any effect on crewmembers. Bassa suggest binning the telephone allowance. The financial equivalent of sticking two fingers up to your fellow negotiators.

The bulk of the proposal consists of back-to-backs to the middle east. This will obviously take complexity out of the business, save money, and increase flexibility. Oh, silly me, no it won't. If the company thought they could save many tens of millions of pounds doing ME back to backs, wouldn't they have done it already? (And what are global linear marks? If they want to describe a geographical area using lat/long, they should ask a pilot.)

Bassa is on its last legs, is fighting to stay in power and convince its members that it is relevant by using rhetoric and personally directed vitriol. But the facts speak louder and more eloquently. There is no logic to the proposal, it's a mash up of point scoring suggestions and uncosted wishlisting.

There are so many great crewmembers out there who deserve better representation than this. I'd suggest they get in touch today and tomorrow with their reps and tell them what they want them to negotiate, but I don't think it would do any good.... would it?

I googled 'global linear marks'. Nothing seems to match. In fact the only thing that did match was 2.61%, how odd it's exactly the same as the pilot offering.

I'm sure by now BASSA members reading this thread will be embarrassed by this clumsy attempt at 'negotiation', so I too hope that some common sense will prevail, I have no wish to see the vast majority of crew stuffed by their own union :sad:

overstress,

BASSA members don't seem bothered at all with their proposal. If you read CF you will see that most of the members are pleased with BASSA:s and UNITE:s proposal.

Some don't like the thought of losing another purser and a main crew has to do their job without being compensated. Many airlines have a working position as galley operator and they don't pay anything additional for that. The purser in CW is actually more or less working in the cabin as "main crew" and supported by the CSD during the meal service. I can't really see any difference there.

An outside perspective:

If you read this forum you are left with a clear picture of BASSA being, well....a little like a spoilt child. When members like SP PiB and so on post here they are very quickly left looking silly...in fact one of them has been found out openly lying!

This leaves you thinking BASSA don't have a clue...


but then you start to consider the history. This is a union that has consistantly got what it's wanted. It's memebers are far overpaid and underworked because of BASSA's efforts over the years right? Each time a situation arises, BASSA gets slammed as a stupid kid but....Cabin Crew end up winners.

Now don't get me wrong, isee the tactics BASSA are using by withholding info, turning it into a hate game against WW etc etc./..but against all reason i'm starting to suspect that BASSA will come out winners again.

The polar opposite counter proposal has to be part of the plan, surely?

I have a feeling that the silly demands are there for one reason..to be dropped. Just like BA has asked for some stupid stuff, so has BASSA. Then counter proposals happen untill both are left with a win-win.


Or am i being silly?

2 Days to Armageddon
 

For those of you who have been bullied into working for free to enhance Willie Walsh's future pay reward package, you will lose your holiday pay entitlement for the period!!!!

Two days will be deducted if you opted to work for a month for free!!!

Didn't anyone ever tell you, never volunteer for anything in British Airways.

nuigini

You miss the point, with respect, if you give all destinations equal attractiveness by eliminating allowances and move to hourly rate, then there will be no mad scrambling.

edit: Sorry, just read your posting properly, get rid of allowances, pilots did it, just negotiate the hourly rate to reflect a fair return...

Trips will be awarded by seniority, but pay will level out....

SP, nuigini, everyone is getting less money and it will come your way soon.

The point is, there are ways of negotiating to minimise how much you lose

If you don't change, things will be changed for you and you won't have a say.

Now's your chance, I urge you to take it.

A bidding system for rostering is far better than someone else deciding where you fly to. You would have choice, currently there is little choice other than on the few request trips per year which are not always guaranteed.

An hourly flying payment is also far better than the current allowance system. It appears everyone looks at the trips that pay the highest allowances and then compare that with hourly flying pay.

Try comparing an hourly rate to the allowances on the trips that currently pay the lowest meal allowances and see what can be gained.

An hourly rate flying pay system would actually pay more than allowances do on most trips.

Stall pusher,

From someone who has only just recently joined this debate:

You seem to be intent in finding a reason to undermine any of our (pilot) agreements. Whilst you state that you can speak with authority about bid line etc you are only recounting 'anecdotal' conversations with flight crew. I gather from reading your posts that although you seem to try and 'research' our agreements (again only it would appear through conversations) you don't actually understand how the whole system works. If you did, you would realise that none of us get anything for free in BA.

The senior guys get what they want through bidding, and the vast majority of us accept that. As far as I know, amongst a very large circle of FOs and Capts, trips swaps usually only take place if if suites the swapee (hope that makes sense...) and seniority doesn't really come into it!!!

From our SEP forums (you know, the ones in which you think our managers encourage us to 'brainwash' crew - a funny thought by the way) BA are more than happy with bidline! It saves money in countless ways, ranging from days off swaps to trip preferences and a reduction of sickies!!! (people are less likely to go sick if they know that the had a chance of getting what they want!!!) To suggest otherwise is at best naive and at worst an attempt at being divisive between CC and FC. Data protection is a big red herring!

I'm sure I have flown with you, because you remind me of one of my crew who was the type of person who would argue that 2+2 is not 4.....

If you feel that we have been let off lightly then you are simple deluded and spoiling for an argument! Look at the BALPA document (there are a few copies doing the rounds) read it and try and understand the implications! Also, consider what we have done over the years (5-6 at least) to become more flexible and efficient and compare to your agreements.

Finally, and I stress, this is NOT personal (well from my POV anyway). We are not crew/Bassa haters. I would be the first to admit that in the past I never would have trusted BA/management, but the whole economic situation is very different and almost uncharted that I have had to think long and hard!

SS

but surely this attitude is part of the problem. Cabincrew seem to have developed the idea that their basic pay os some sort of 'retainer' and that the allowances are their 'pay' for the trip! What if all allowances were replaced by an identical rise in basic pay?
What would happen then?
An hourly rate means it evens out your salary over the year and minmises the chances of abusing the rostering system.

Anyone saying they are unwilling to do a singapore for less than they get now has seriously misunderstood the ba cc remuneration system.

Stallpusher (I think you mean Stickpusher - stallpusher is an inaccurate term that only has a tenuous link to real life:p)
I reckon that's put your Bidline diversion back in its box.

Perhaps now you can explain why this Bassa proposal is so 'elegant'?

SP, it's a legal requirement to pro-rate annual leave for anyone taking unpaid leave as to not do so would disadvantage contracted part-timers.

It does appear that BASSA are clutching at straws. However, history tells us that it is a tactic that has worked well for them in the past. I suppose time will tell.
I sympathise with anyone that is going to lose out either way. I also feel that if it does turn nasty in the next few months, there will be a lot of very unhappy crew at work. At what point does ones' health come before a vehicle to earn money?

Does anyone see any parallels between the government of Iran and the leadership of BASSA? Faced with a challenge to it's existence the government blames external forces for fomenting trouble (namely the British) and BASSA blames external forces for fomenting trouble (namely the pilots). Not that I'm claiming BASSA are a self-serving, undemocratic theocracy who are primarily concerned with preserving the perks of a select few. I mean they're not religious at all!

If any of you are in doubt as to the determination of Willie Walsh, try and see a programme called The Leaders, on CNBC. (I do not know if CNBC programs end up on youtube.)

I caught part of this program last night when it was mentioned about the staff being locked out when they went on strike at Aer Lingus and that WW said the airline would not start up again until the situation (ie negotiations) were resolved.

There is similar determination from him now, though I doubt it will result in BA being shut down, but whatever he has in mind it will be a serious attempt at settling things once and for all ....until the next down turn warrants a similar move of course :eek:

I don't think a lock out would work anything like as well as it did at Aer Lingus. A primarily short haul airline can sort itself out within a few days once service recommences. A primarily long haul airline like BA would take a further two weeks to sort out the mess. He'll need a different plan this time.

....newsflash........ Just In From Bassa......