shoppingcart,

I've long been a strong supporter of the FAAA. I have been unashamedly vocal (much to my own detriment with management) and supportive of them from the day I joined to the day I ceased flying. Even though I don't fly anymore, I still encourage my network of friends to sign up and support.

I don't doubt the FAAA chose a conservative path in the hope of achieving the best result in good faith. CT (now CS?) is an intelligent and gutsy leader, and knows when a battle can be won or lost, right or wrong.

Nonetheless, now is the time to take action. My beef is not with past decisions and actions, but the seemingly consistent conservative approach that yields few results from a gung-ho and seat-of-their-pants management (a management that respects anything but approaching negotiations in a fair and reasonable manner).

If there was ever a time to show a bit of strength, take action, and give the company a good wake up call, it is now.

FWA sent a strong signal to the company that they are on thin ice.

Industrial action does not have to mean strike - if anything a strong campaign aimed where it will hurt (the 'ego' of the virgin brand) will get results. Whether that be a 'work to rule' or limiting crew to safety only duties (ie no service), it WILL achieve results. You CAN NOT do a service on a boeing with just 2 crew!

What reason does the union give to non-members (to join) otherwise? My point is, unless the union shows some tangible value, membership will dwindle and they will continue to be perceived as pointless, or worse, too close to management (which I think is not the case).

At least rocky either goes down fighting or triumphs against all odds.

Why would I still care? (I'm not flying anymore after all). Well my mortgage still depends on a fair outcome, as does the mortgage of many of my friends.

NOW is the best chance they may ever have. Again - if the company wont take the FAAA seriously at 50% membership, thats a perfect excuse to show them why they should!

Agreed.

The battlefield is looming, not before the % increases and we see it fought and won.

shoppingcart: it is refreshing to see that there are still some people that can see the situation for what it really is - a headstrong company unwilling to bargain or meet any demands made by its crew.

There are countless free-riders complaining about the FAAA's lack of integrity, the FAAA siding with the company, the FAAA not doing enough to protect their working conditions and not exerting enough power. I am sick of hearing crew complain about the FAAA not doing enough for them when they aren't even paying members! If they are not willing to join the FAAA and appoint them as their bargaining representative in this process, then what exactly are they doing to help protect our conditions?

Virgin Blue management is quite aware of the fact that their cabin crew are NOT united as only half of them are members of the FAAA. If you were a Virgin Blue executive, would you submit to the demands made by a union that only represents half of your workforce?

The union is very conservative when it comes to the negotiation process and when dealing with breaches of the EBA on behalf of its members to ensure they do not affect company profitability in a detrimental manner. They do not want the company fined $30,000 for every breach of the EBA or have the company lose paying passengers as a result of a strike. They want the company to succeed financially as this will ensure that all of our jobs are protected.

However, I do agree with ozangel in regards to a consistently conservative approach not yielding results. Now is the time for the FAAA to take whatever action is necessary to achieve the results they desire and it is also about time that, as cabin crew, we start utilising the strength that comes with unity and use the expertise of a union to ensure that collectively, we are bargaining on an equal footing with our employer.

It's quite simple really, if you're not part of the FAAA, who is representing you? :rolleyes:

crew vs crew
 

I agree with vbg, shopcart and ozA, on the union issues, in particular, at a time we need them most, Crew should take control, and stand united, whether as a collective group (NOT a consultative committee!) or as union members.

I prefer the latter,-because I'd be darned taking on our company with it's team of legals by my self! Who's going to the court dates off thier own back to oppose the EBA being terminated?? Black listed for sure should any promotions etc come around!

I really don't want to see a culture of union crew vs non union crew but when you put it that way vbgirl, it seem's we are paying for others free loading, not doing anything (correct me if i'm wrong!) to protect our eba and working conditions. Is that not what the company is counting on? a split? come on crew, wake up, get active for yourself and for you team mates... your union fees are tax deductable, and if anything, treat it like insurance.... something that you despise paying for but ultimately need just in case, saving you in the long run! :cool:

Now, not to be counterproductive to my previous rant, but where exactly does that $30,000 money go when a fine is imposed??

And quote in The Australian Business (online) yesterday....
Again, we don't want to damage our earnings too much, but a simple publicity campaign like OzAngel said could really go a long way.....:)

Glad you quoted that EBA Babylon, yes ground crew EBA proposal was voted down:ok:

Hopefully we dont have to go as far as CC did to get a fair deal from VB.

couple of things
 

Firstly, i am a member of the FAAA and therefore support them, at least so far as the concept of union membership goes. I understand your point VB Girl in regards to many crew not being members of FAAA and enjoying the spoils but are they really? What spoils exactly do they enjoy? As has been mentioned, the union in it's 'conservativeness' doesn't impose fines when the company breaches the conditions of our EBA because you say they want the company to remain viable.
However, if fines are never imposed then what's the point? No wonder the company walks all over the FAAA, the FAAA allows it to, the FAAA has never taken a hardline approach. How about some tough love? The company is quite happy to milk all it can out of us! This is why crew decide not to join, they see no action, no real consequences for breaches. If a $30,000 fine here and there is going to push the company over the edge then our jobs are in a pretty precarious position anyway. And fear of putting the company in the red? Why is the FAAA so concerned with such folly when the company isn't? Branson himself at the launch of VAustralia made the comment (not verbatim) to the media whilst onboard the inaugural flight from LA "hey we know there's a recession but we're gonna do it anyway! hahaha" So just to clarify, the FAAA is more concerned about the company making a quid than it's quintessential face and millionaire brand-name owner? The FAAA should be working as hard as it can for it's members, regardless of the number it has. It shouldn't matter whether there is 1 or 1500 members, if but one person is paying a fee for a service (representation), then they should receive the service. To argue that the FAAA can't do much because it doesn't have enough members makes me wonder what my fees are paying for? And this is exactly the reason why people pull out! For all their expertise, surely the FAAA should have considered the fact that the people don't join because they hear the same old story..."not enough people are members so we can't do much for you...", "we're only as good as the number of members we have and we don't have many" etc. No wonder people don't join, they feel that there is no point, that their money will be a waste because nobody else is joining. The FAAA, in an effort to rally support, has shot themself in the foot. They promoted membership on the basis that it was needed because hardly anyone was a member...how about promoting membership by advertising what they will do for us? Put your best foot forward, focus on the positive. People want to see results, see what their membership represents, they want action!!! They don't want to know they are signing up to a lacklustre and ineffectual group that hardly anyone aspires to be a member of and that Virginblue doesn't rate (or fear)! The fact that the senior management of the FAAA has not figured this out is beyond me. It makes me wonder whether they use lack of membership as an excuse for poor results...I support a number of charities on a monthly basis and at the end of every financial year i get a summary of where/how my donations were spent, why don't i get that from the FAAA?
That said, at the end of the day - and i do hope VB Management, who don't usually post on PPRUNE...ten points for making me laugh!...are also reading this - if the current (expired) EBA is successfully cancelled and the company chooses to put in place what was so strongly rejected by 77% of the cabin crew - with or without the cash payments - then they too need some advice from specialists' outside of the company. If 77% of your frontline staff are unhappy, how's that going to be for business? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the correct answer but, somehow management is still crying poor despite the fact that we actually played a large part in Virginblue making a $30million profit. Pity Management decided to go ahead with VAustralia...and thus put the business not VB mind you, in the red by a cool $160million. Why should we suffer the consequences? We've been working our butts off to do well for our guests and provide them with a service they want to come back for. They tell us its to keep our jobs...bull...its to keep VAustralia going. We were doing just fine. And lets not forget, its not just crew that are being asked to take a hit for VA, its also ground crew and any other poor minion at the bottom rung. You have bled us dry boys, find the funds somewhere else, 77% have said as much! :ugh:

CBR_1 maybe you should become a delegate and put your mouth where your money is.

The FAAA delegates are representing you as volunteers. They are trying to get everyone's support in an "office" where some of the employees couldn't care less what happens in the EBA. They only care about the next weekend off, their next pay check, when do we sign off and what time is pick up. They want it all handed to them on a platter because thats the way they are. Don't you get why they asked you which way to vote. They didn't read the document and are relying on others to make a decision for them. Its still like high school.

There is no point bagging the union letting you down when it is your so called "friends" out online that dont have your back. The FAAA will be there as your representative when you need them, where will your "friends" be?
In the mean time why don't you approach the FAAA about being more helpful out online with recruiting and informing crew. There are plenty of crew doing that now. Once we are all on the same page then with the majority of crew at your back you can take what ever action is legal.
You could even run for FAAA VBA CC Team Leader perhaps your hardline stance will make our managers see the light of day. :ok:

between a rock and hard place?
 

CBR_1 thanks for the hard line approach you took at the modern Award case, although I didnt see your name on the transcript

By the way thanks for speaking out and all the lobbying you did for the increase to our overnight allowance; that fight was tough, love, but worth pursuing. At least now part of my income is still up with the cost of living.

I was wondering who attended Fair Work Australia and spoke up for us about the way VB is not bargaining properly - so that was you?

I hope you are going to volunteer to be a witness at the termination court case and speak out as well. How great will it be with hundreds of us up there. Great thanks for organising all of this.

Its such a shame it costs more than $33000 in legal fees to get a fine imposed of $33000 through the courts. Some of us are prepared to run raffles to raise the money we need to pay the legal eagles who would have to run it, could you donate the prizes?

A union representing 1 person in a battle which they know is widespread doesn't ring true. To make a case, we've got to have a case. The spokesperson has to be able to speak out with authority. With only 1 person or a handful backing them, that isn't going to fly.

I hope the current delegates who are volunteers are willing to keep speaking out for us for another year.

Maybe the FAAA really are hardworking volunteers who are interested in maintaining fair work conditions for crew. Maybe they are challenged by a lack of interest in their work.

And maybe those crew who don't choose to be members are not freeloading selfish individuals who don't give a damn. Maybe they are people who for their own reasons and using their own brains have decided that FAAA representation is not for them.

CBR has a valid point, even if it's not one you want to hear. Calling anyone outside your membership "the enemy" and putting them down as apathetic and freeloading does not make your association attractive to new members.

youn missed my point
 

Talk about shooting the messenger! Just to clarify...
I am out there encouraging others to get on board every chance i get, and have been for years, my "friends" out on line up until recently have asked me to show them, or tell them what the union is doing for them? Because for so long they saw no action. You can sling it at me if you like, but for many years prior to recent times i.e. the past 6 months or so, we saw and heard very little from the union. I came to roadshows on my days off, i asked the tough questions, i can assure you i have been, and am continuing to be pro-active. So please don't suggest i get up off my butt and do something, i am. :ok:

and in response to your very witty post shoppingcart (and i say that sincerely, nicely written!)
No, i wasn't there in person, but that's what my union fees pay for. The FAAA is meant to do those things on it's members behalf. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not doing it myself, I have employed the FAAA for that purpose. Isn't that the point of membership?

Places everyone, and .... action!
 

There has been action

pay increases fought for while waiting for the company to research (cough) Crap 371 and bring to us the greek god of systems Kronos, my hero.

attemps to rekindle negotiations while the company locked them out of their private discussions with the non union reps

a recent increase to allowances

A union is the sum of its parts - a few voices, even those of the union leaders wont be believable enough. We will need a whole crowd to move the opinions of those who will be deciding our fate. To be able to stop the termination, the union leaders will have had to have done everything legally correct. This behind the scenes action shouldnt be seen as lacking.

Even if you dont think representation is for you, you might not have realised that the peaceful protest which has given you the hours and pay you have now has been going on behind the scenes on your behalf all along. For action to occur, we cant be part of the backstage crew. We all have to play a role. Even if it means shelling out some of our hard earned dollars at the box office to make an impact.

Lets get the right message out there, turn things around to those who maybe dont understand what action involves; a whole crowd of people who will all benefit by turning our 77% vote to a sea of faces in front of the vote.

CBR_1 - Numbers represent strength and the FAAA speaks on behalf of their members, which is about 50-60% of cabin crew.

AirborneSoon - The other 40-50% of crew have exercised their legal right to NOT choose a bargaining representative. However, when the views of this group are called upon, who is going to speak on their behalf during all the hearings? This is the problem that is going to manifest itself. Management are quite satisfied with the division amongst the crew as it means half of them are effectively silenced, which makes their cost-saving goals much easier to realise.

The EBA vote may have been the only chance for the group without a bargaining representative to voice their opinion about the proposed working conditions as based on the company's policy of listening to crew and using the skewed results from the closed-ended questions in the post-voting surveys to make decisions, they gave us what we wanted the third time round! :\

What's in for us?
 

My apologies as my last post did not go through so I’m a little disappointed I’ve had to retype it
Now I must admit I agree with Peg, the union has never done me any favours in times of need, infact backtracked and told me they did not make such statements or recommendations.
Nonetheless, I joined the union as it provides a voice for crew and an “insurance” for my job should crew ever need to strike which may well happen considering the new Award presented from the “Award Modernisation” process.
I have also attempted on many occasions to be a voice for crew to dispute extra duties imposed on us which may be considered illegal. It is unfortunate that crew do continue to be afraid of management and disciplinary action and thus continue to accept 11 or 12 hour duties imposed.
Remember back to our initials/EP days where we were told 80% was pass mark (as per CASA regs) but even when we passed (say 85% for example) we were told the company expected over 90% and demanded a “chat” with crew to determine the cause of such “dismal performance” in their eyes.
This is one silly example of the company making us out to feel bad for trying our best. They have continued, with success to adjust crew to doing long hours. A slow transgression results in crew getting used to such duties and the company making an easy transition for themselves to a crappy EBA/ Agreement.
Let’s not forget back in 2007 when Virgin budgeted for an expected loss of $200 million per year for V Australia. It’s only $160 million posted now and they expect to save $5 million on a new EBA for Virgin Blue Cabin Crew. They are already doing better than expected. Crew shouldn’t be accepting the “CRY POOR” from management. Let’s not even mention the share offer to management back in June!
What about our Christmas present for 2008? A Link on the internet to a music clip! Thanks for comin!
Hmmmm wonder what we'll get for 2009, maybe an email from management saying everybody has agreed to forgo presents for this year as we will donate $10,000 to x charity. Ahhhh....yes cynical I am. :=

cargoattendant - The latest news is that Virgin Blue is only allowed to operate redeye flights the way they are rostered provided they allow crew to access 'fatigue' days without any consequences. Fatigue days are not sick days and come up as a blank day in Sabre and if you request confidentiality, your DM will not be notified.

The BOC pairings manage to squeeze into the fatigue assessment calculation at sign on but at sign off, most crew are way off the chart due to losing a whole night of sleep and not having had enough sleep in the previous 48 hrs.

There are some crew who manage to sleep when they get into PER at night and then again before the BOC flight. However there are many crew who go without sleep or have to resort to using sleeping aids such as Stillnox, Temazapam and Restavit to get some sleep before these flights.

Why are crew too scared to submit a fatigue report or utilise hotel rest at Melbourne airport after operating these BOC flights even when they've had less than 4 hrs sleep in the past 24 hrs at sign off?

They're afraid of the consequences :ugh:

"If you request confidentiality, your DM will not be notified"

I have three points to make in response:

1) The DMs would clearly be able to put two and two together if they looked at your roster.

2) In principle, the concept negates the need for DMs in the first place (assuming they still believe their own spin that the DMs exist as a first port of call for improving the workplace and developing yourself)

3) Not one cent should be compromised until they sack the lot of them, and run the department in a financially sensible and lean manner.


In response to yesterdays argument about percentage of membership:

1) 50-60% of crew taking protected industrial action is just as good as a higher percentage.

2) The union is doing it self NO favours bleating on about how they only represent 50-60%, and refusing to take a hard line approach with the company. I'm sick of it - no more excuses! Be happy with what you got - and maybe if you show your worth through some hard lined tactics, you will again be relevant.

I am sick of hearing comments like 'who represented you at the AIRC?' etc - of course its the bloody union!! Don't expect a back pat for doing just half your job?!

between a rock and hard line?
 

Ozangel

I'm interested to hear what hard line tactics you would have called relevant?

please share

how about enforcing fines against the company - sure it costs money - but it shows the company the union is not the lethargic pushover it appears to be.

Jeez - really - it does NOT take almost 5 years to negotiate a pay deal unless something is seriously wrong!! What a disgrace!

maybe follow that up with protected industrial action - a few bouts of safety related duties only (the planes still fly!) but theres none of that famous virgin blue service.

How bout even going so far as asking the membership what actions they would be willing to participate in?

I'm not talking about a strike, so do not suggest that my ideas would bankrupt the company.

How bout a change in attitude as well - quit all this underdog crap. GREAT the FAAA went in to bat at the commission - well done - now finish the job!

The union is its membership - and I respect that unless the membership makes a move, the union as a collective can't. If the union is lethargic, its because its membership is lethargic. HOWEVER membership fees are being paid so that some sort of co-ordination exists at the top end, and I would argue that this 'top end' has become somewhat disjointed from the membership it represents.

I would love to hear a solid and realistic argument as to why some hard line action can not happen? And spare me the bleeding hearts bs about percentages - if 50-60% of the crew are taking protected action and only doing safety duties then surely the remaining percent face an impossible task getting a service done. WHO KNOWS!? Maybe it will even spur some of those potential FEE PAYING members that we so fondly refer to as 'freeloaders' to consider joining an organisation doing something tangible and visible to improve the situation.

Just to clarify, I am as pro-union as they come, I just hate to see the FAAA at their own funeral plot with shovels and their own home brewed 'punch'.

Isolating its biggest supporters, and feigning deafness when the cries for action dictate a forward direction is not the way to go.


On a side note - in further response to vbgirls post above:

Of course crew are afraid - they are answerable to a bunch of unqualified clowns (DMs) who don't even have the tact to keep their personal opinions on crew going fatigued to themselves. The personal (possibly tirets induced) spray I heard from one BNE DM about a crew going fatigued (personal comments included), was nothing short of disgraceful! Of course he has a job still - and the sad thing is, most of you will be able to guess who it is without me even mentioning the initials.

A week later I mentioned what happened and what was said in CRM, and I was shot down by the facilitator (a pilot I once had a great deal of respect for) as a liar, despite many witnesses present.

thanks for sharing
 

glad it didnt take the union 5 years to get me a better pay deal!

thanks to union top end action - I got a 9% increase for all the new (daily) initiatives while management experts were putting a bandaid on all the systems that couldn't run the new initiatives.

The top end didnt want to even hint industrial action because they wanted us to be able to jump over the Evil Work Act - workchoices. Apparently no threat of protected action left the door open to vary the current agreement, but in July it was slammed shut when the company applied to exterminate it.

Lots of unions are being reported in the media lately about losing their legal battles and being turfed out because they haven't got all their ducks in a row. But not ours, no disgrace or bad press there.

Glad the union had my back, my mortgage and kept my union fees down by not having to pay a legal bill which didnt progress anywhere.

No disgrace from where i'm sitting checking my bank statement, only well thought through business sense, possibly thought through in the other part of their job. :D

Any news on the latest round of negotiations? The rumour mill has slowed down a bit at work.

news
 

Last weeks EBA meeting didnt go ahead.
FAAA Delegates are meeting with management tomorrow instead.
I hope the deadlock can be broken on the total package otherwise the media might use its magic key and unlock it for everyone to see.

Annual report for 2008-2009 released - so everyone is on a pay freeze huh? Not according to the annual report. Take a look at senior management salary packages for the last recession ridden year (cough)gone by. I hear the pitter patter of back pay a-comin.

Hi there guys,

Bit of a reality check. Something humorous (or not so) for everyone to read.
Now I'm just putting this out there for now (something my smart partner suggested may happen in the future). Give it 15-20 years I don't think there will ever be a market for us cabin crew in terms of jobs.

My suggestion is there will be vending machines for pax to purchase items and the Captains will be paid an extra $40k a year to brief pax and take care of all safety stuff. They will find ways around operation of doors etc with introduction of new aircraft that doors automatically open in the event of an emergency.

Now don't think this is because I advocate the ways airlines are at the moment. Quite to the contrary! - I think we should be trying to get the last little bits out of them and not die in vain. We should be pushing every little last bit we have!

Well at least I have documented my little theory so if someone comes along with this in future. heheheheh.....

I'd be interested to know how you'd automate on-board medical care :}

Jokes aside, this is the one thing people seem to overlook when debating the role of cabin crew, or passenger to crew ratios. Perhaps you need to remind DJ of why the role was created in the first place - to reassure passengers when they get sick.

the real story
 

The first flight attendants were all in fact nurses. If you weren't a nurse, you couldn't get a look in. Emergency procedures were a mere secondary consideration - most planes that crashed back in the day did not/could not survive the impact! :8

the here and now
 

Enterprise bargaining didnt really turn out the way it was expected to.
Instead of companies and workers working together to get a win-win, it is take-give.
Another day, another survey to see if we are willing to give them what they want 140 hours in 28 day rosters.
10 more hours a month than what I do now for a pay increase.
health management meetings for one and all
achievement drive meetings for everyone as we try to keep our hours to 140 in 28 so we don't have health management :cool:
I wonder if the village workers are now working standard 42.5 hour weeks for their pay increases?? thats 8am to 5pm, half an hour for lunch

Another survey
 

Key changes to new draft Cabin Crew Agreement

ELEMENT: PROPOSAL : COMMENT: My comments in red
Roster Hours / 28 Days (Ordinary Hours) 140 -Average Rostered Hours will not exceed 135 over rolling 12 months still not good enough This is one of our biggest issues.
Max Hours / 28 Days after delays and disrupts 145 Where last remaining duty is APT or denominated AVL day, planned duty cannot be assigned to exceed 140 hours OK
Daily Hours 9.45 ( 12 disrupt / paxing ) Same as current EBA good :)
RDOs 9 RDOs in 7 roster cycles & 10 RDOs in 6 roster cycles ( 123 per year ) An increase of 3 RDOs from the current EBA **
Rest ( Home ) 15 Same as current EBA
Rest ( Away ) 10 Same as current EBA
Daily Overtime >9.30 ( Time and Half ) & >9.45 ( Double Time ) Current Overtime Rates will increase by 3% Better but we're still losing 30 mins of o/t from 9-9.30hrs.
Roster Cycle Overtime >140 (Double time) Current Overtime Rates will increase by 3%
Base Salary 3 x 3% Increases Imbedded Increases (rather than cash payments)
Fixed Allowances ( DTA, Grooming, Misc Exp ) 3% Increase Year 1 then fixed !?
Overnight Allowance Agreed Increases
AVL Day Rate Increased AVL Day Rates
Drafting Rate Double Time Hourly Rate Paid for hours worked ( min 4 hours )
Leave Loading No Change to your current EBA
Buffers No Change to your current EBA
International Provisions - Hours No Change
International Provisions - Sign Off 30 mins
International Provisions - Passports Reimbursement on renewals

No back pay though, and the 140 hours/28 days still biggest issue I have. What of part time provisions?
And the survey- very complex!

*1. Based on the summary of key changes outlined:

o Yes, it's likely that I would accept the new agreement
o No, it's not likely that I would accept the new agreement

LETS ADD THESE ONEs IN:
o Yes, if company agreed to be reasonable with our max monthly hours say 135/28 and address other issues highlighted in blue above.
o Undecided untill I see all the information ie whole document

2. If you would like to make additional comments, please provide them here:

-----------END OF SURVEY------------


*Note survey closes midnight monday 12th

Are they still including that terrible 5 year pay scale? Have they ever said anything about internal transfers etc and what level they will enter on?

Hey EBA Babes

Aren't they proposing 135/28 this time? I thought thats what the survey meant ??

The new NPRM 20:16:3 (crew ratio) will require each AOC holder to lodge a safety case (sic statement) in respect of whole of duty/day of ops considerations. This covers EVERYTHING - service, security, medical and fatigue management. Don't sell out too early or specifically include a provision for compliance with 20:16:3 requirements in the EBA

My girl has this month left the Virgin fold for greener pastures, but you all must start to think beyond the basics and look at the EBA AND the work rules.

For example - deleting West/East back of clock (BOC) sectors after min rest followed by an additional east coast sector, - crew rest provisions on board for BOC/long sectors (sorry a jump seat in the back of a 737 just does not cut it) - QUALITY Crew meals (even when paxing) - deleting the stupid 'health management program' (sorry unless your Manager is a Doctor......), consideration of additional duty times due to the fixed schedules of ground transport, and all of the other B.S. that treats you like a 5 year old pre-schooler.

VB has treated its CC as fools - asking for leave without pay etc while BG and co line their pockets and spending up big on Branson p*ss ups. They couldn't even pay the VOZ crew standard rates for tarting it up in the V commercial -

Four months ago I received a call from BG's PA promising me a 'personal' reply from Godfrey (my girl took two months leave without pay because things were so tight - I wrote seeking at the very least a personal acknowledgement of her and her collegues' sacrafices).........Four months later, I 'm still waiting and the PA keeps lying that BG is far too busy to keep his own promises.........

Baseline is that VB likes (and wants) the 'Tanner' approach and it is banking that the younger, less wise crew will vote up the deal.

I could not imagine the QF CC on the other side of my door accepting this kind of B.S. - I would imagine that their union would go to guns very quickly.

Best of luck with it all - I've got to say that I'm so glad that my household is finally free from it all - although while ever this kind of philosophy is allowed to fester and breed, the role of CC will continue to be diminshed and downgraded.

Have always said that CC are professional people -I hope you all start getting treated as such by DJ soon.

here endeth my last comment on the way DJ treats its CC

AT
:E

wise heads on young shoulders
 

Thanks AT & Co for all your motivating words
No doubt QF CC who are mainly a mix of many wise owls and some young chicks could hide the babes in arms during a strike, not sure if the tables were turned how that will go, but time will tell as QCCA overtakes the majority

Yep without backpay for time taken revising the companies shopping list in May and then their revised shopping list in July (?) was it? I've lost count of the amount of personal shopping time I've lost from the work surveys, the number of aditional duty hours to number crunch their shopping lists, and not recorded in Sabre time, including my 15 minutes sign off lately, thats definately worth a pay increase right there for all that extra work. I cant say :ooh: Yes, it's likely that I would accept the new agreement especially as AT puts it, the additional east coast sector following West/East BOC, is not ruled out and no backpay.

5 year pay scale, terrible?
 

DJCCGUY

i might be looking at things differently than you but at least the wannabee-newbees will get a pay increase every year for 5 years or even 7 years if they stay, whereas at the end of 3 years we will have to bargain (sell our souls) for another increase.

a lot of the companies shopping list is not just about saving money now they benefit long term on the things they want to introduce. The global financial crisis will be long gone and we'll still be punching out an extra 140 hours a year for an extra $1200 to $1500 a year. :uhoh:

On the bright side my health management meeting should last about 2 hours per roster, thats 26 hours less than 140 - looking better by the minute! Maybe I could cut that down with some development meetings as well.

Senior management salary increases, more CCDMs than necessary, average of 135h rostered per 28 days (with a 140 max), unchanged minimum rest of 12 away from home, no mention of 2nd sector after BOC flights or buffers around operating these pairings, no mention of supp payment transparency to allow crew to track payments or submit forms when missing breaks (how much is the company saving in unpaid supp payments), the list goes on and on...

Bargaining is about compromise and we need to look at positive changes that meet the needs of both the company and cabin crew. Interest rates have increased which proves the Australian economy is still spending so the affect of the GEC is lessening.

A few things I would like to see:
- 132h per 28 days with 6 week roster visibility as a minimum, preferably 8 weeks (compromise to get us onto 28 day rosters)
- lose 15 minutes overtime from 9h to 9.25h (compromise as we're meeting in the middle)
- buffer around maximum rostered hours to acknowledge time used to keep up to date with emails, CCONs, manual updates as this is a requirement that must be met before briefings and to allow for delays (compromise to account for the current roster building to approx. 125hrs in our current EBA that allows for all of this - something a lot of crew do not realise)
- some form of trip-swapping/ dumping (this would be win/win as it would have a positive affect on sick leave by reducing days taken for personal commitments when bids fail and reduce the labour hours required by CCDMs to 'manage' crew with high SL. It's time to start using a tried and tested system of trip-swapping that has worked for other airlines.)
- reduce number of CCDMs and utilise cabin crew for majority of admin tasks - as they are currently doing. The majority of crew are self-managed and most crew wouldn't rate the performance of their CCDM very highly. If the company doesn't believe this, then give cabin crew an engagement survey in the form of anonymous upward feedback to rate the performance of their CCDM (compromise, shows the company is serious about cutting costs by removing redundant positions and also allows crew to work with the company by assisting with administration tasks or allows crew on work cover/ close to maternity leave to continue working. Maybe a system for crew to pick up a few extra hours a month to earn more money could work? Lower CCDM:Crew ratios work in other airlines, why does Virgin Blue have to be different?)
- the development of a system that allows the tracking of supp payments. Currently, crew are not receiving their minimum entitlement of a 20min uninterrupted break and are also NOT receiving the penalty payment when this happens. This means lost earnings for crew and an inaccurate wage expense for the company. It is about time this issue was addressed to ensure cabin crew are receiving their minimum entitlements when at work (win for cabin crew).
- a salary adjustment to at least cover inflationary increases (fair adjustment).
- removal of crew meals and a small meal allowance of $5 per meal window or some other form of provisions as there is currently a lot of wastage (win/win).
- removal of 2nd sector after BOC flights written into the EBA or a provision that ensures crew can access hotel rest before driving home or are allowed a cab voucher without being bullied by their CCDM (win for safety).
- an adjusted pay scale based partly on flying hours that means those with higher rostered duty hours are paid more than those with lower duty hours as currently, there is a significant difference amongst crew and their rostered duty hours. Some crew consistently being rostered 100hrs per month while others are being rostered 130hrs a month. It's not fair that both crew are paid the same while the former has the added opportunity to earn more on AVL days (win for the company and a win for crew with rosters at the higher end!).
- provision for dual-trained crew to get some sort of extra payment as they are required to maintain knowledge of two A/C types and more manuals than crew trained on a single A/C.
- increased transparency regarding leave slots. Currently there are not enough leave slots for each crew member to take their 6wks per year. This needs to be addressed and someone needs to be answerable when we can't get leave.
- reduced notice to take leave. The current requirement to provide 5-6wks notice to request leave is ridiculous and needs to be changed. Trip swapping may reduce this requirement but something needs to be done to reduce the requirement to 2-3 weeks so that crew can manage their leave and health better.

The current leave system is diabolical. Poor bloody CSs cant get a break, yet the GFC axe still hangs over their head. Even CC cant get leave! Sure, everyone knew that they might have to work Xmas and Birthdays and School Holidays etc, but is it unreasonable to expect to get one or two annual leave applications approved per year?

Not just that, but when you do request a specific time off for a 'genuinely important' event, you are made to feel like you are asking your DM to sacrifice their first born... What a crock of ....

The company continues to demand petty concessions that will force most cabin crew BELOW the poverty line, yet insists on rewarding its 'corporate failure-golden boys' with hefty bonuses. Don't stop there, they insist on employing a bunch of unqualified, micro-managing, job-justifying, platter-eating gossips as so called 'Development Managers'.

Lordy, think of the cash they could save if they were gone. Not just wages, but the cost of providing them an 'office', all those bollocks professional development courses they seem to be at, the time wasted pursuing trivial and legally dangerous avenues in the name of justifying their own existance and the MASSIVE affect it has on crew morale.

Don't vote up ANY EBA until the DMs are gone.

2-3 BMs per port should be sufficient. If other airlines can do it better with less, why cant Virgin???

Virgin could do it with less but they need Hall Monitors to assign the blame to when another department gets it wrong.

The more DMs out there, the more blame can be distributed amongst crew for corporate stuff ups. Get frontline staff to give a reasonable explanation for why they didnt file the update they didnt receive and bob's your uncle, the distributor didnt get it wrong, Pubs cant be blamed for not printing enough copies - Crew felt bullied into writing an explanation or face the sack - well if crew gave an explanation then they must have something to hide, hey?

DR increased their numbers to make sure everyone knew who their manager was. Hell it had nothing to do with them making a decision or actioning anything, they were only put there to reassign blame or delay or deflect any plea for help or assistance.

Dont let the DMs effect voting on ANY EBA. I hear that in the not to distant future they might actually have to make a decision on some thing called individual flexibility employment agreements. They wont be able to hide from them, must be processed in 14 days and they have to give genuine consideration to personal needs. :D

Info on IFA's here Use-of-individual-flexibility-arrangements

Interesting reading. So the way I see it anytime crewing want to do anything outside the EBA they must use one of these? Sure is going to be a lot of paperwork for someone. Oh wait thats right we have a Village full of paperpushers. Another non-operational job. I wonder what the ratio is of front line staff to behind the scenes staff. At the rate we are going we will catch up to QF soon.

V oz bonus?
 

Does anyone know of a bonus of $2500 being paid to V Australia crew? Somebody was talking about it today...the crew member said they had heard that a bonus was paid recently. They weren't sure what the bonus was for but all VB crew present weren't too pleased given our current struggle for a fair EBA given the business is arguing financial restraints...? And given we made a profit and V Australia hasn't...Be curious to know if there is any truth to the rumour.

CBR 1 - maybe the pilots and DM's got that amount but for crew, on much lower basic, the payment was around $1200 gross.

Its disappointing to hear VB crew didn't get a bonus but don't forget that the bonus is written into our contract and our terms and conditions are inferior to VB's. Overall we are still worse off financially than VB crew.

Apparently we have an agreement worthy of putting to vote. hmmmmm......:confused:

Both sides, vb and faaa, satisfied with their compromises... ? My ears are open but I can't say whether I'm going to like what I hear. :rolleyes:

VB girl - I'm happy to sign off on the compromises you suggested! And perhaps some of the bonus (?) given to our fellow crew at V would be a bonus in itself? :)

Re airtags last post
 

Airtag's

Sorry, Im new to this, where can I find the new NPRM ?

CAO 20.16.3

No major changes as far as I can see. Perhaps what AT was talking about was proposed and somehow just fell by the wayside. Don't underestimate what clout the people over at QF have with CASA. QF was once part of the public service. I am sure there are still friends working either side. Conspiracy theory maybe but Australian Aviation is a pretty small industry.

So what does everyone think?

My quick calculations....

Current: 125 hrs per month = 1500hrs per year
Proposed: 135 hrs per 28 days = 1759.82 per year

= 17.32% increase in your annual hours

Current: $45047(CC2) per year
Proposed: $47831(CC5) per year

= 6.18% increase in your annual pay.

When you compare the time you spend at work to the pay you receive, the proposed EBA equates to:

11.14% PAY CUT

As for arguing that other allowances have increased, they have only increased by the bare minimum they could get away with anyway - would be getting that anyway! Besides, with DTA gone, you'll be taxed more (as it's proposed to form part of your base wage).

Why is this greedy management still carrying on like this? It can't be that bad if Andrew David is off buying aircraft!? The company looks set to upgrade profit forcasts, and is riding on the wave of the rising australian dollar.

Not only this, but you are cutting the wages of those who may follow in your footsteps - wham - all of a sudden you are too expensive - and with the company's 'magical' performance management system, one day you're a favourite, the next your being hunted by a bunch of unqualified smiling assasins - almost everyone knows someone who's had this happen to them!