paying travelling public
 

Hear Hear VBP!

a fluffy label isnt needed to stand VB apart from low cost models both here in Australia and o/s.

Passengers shopping around for a deal are going for price tag and safety record they dont care whether its low cost or new world, these labels dont mean anything in the choice market.

Rewards frequent flyers make a choice on total product and our product is totally different to that of our competitors! Just ask anyone in the street to compare us - we are in our own category simply on personal preference of what we offer not by our label.

please have a look at the Australian Stock Exchange PDF files that Virgin has had to publish. Check out appendix 3B dated just after eba vote. if you can read between all the legal jargon, the 1st 2 pages basically say how the top 9 executives get 2.5 million dollars worth of shares as a bonus. and its for work done up to 2012. times must be tough!:\

And there's why I don't buy the bleeding heart, GEC spin.:hmm:

Look Out!
 

:cool: keep an eye out - it's going to go to a re-vote- they NEED it voted up BEFORE july 1. even though they're crying poor, crewroom fm have broadcasted the only major change will be to up the bribe payment and add in :} scare tactics of court rulings and moving on to award rates... Don't be fooled. stand strong.

.....love how headhoncho's compare us cabin crew (conditions and pay) to lowcost jetstar but as a "new world" airline are compared to Qantas :suspect:.

Hope to hear from the union soon on whats going on. managment are fully bagging them in the workplace so here's hoping they have a plan! :O

Just a little off the subject of the EBA
 

What do you all think about the new 3 crew service on the 737? give the fourth crew member a break I don't think so. I think its more like get used to only having 3 crew on board. If that happens forget the EBA I wont be staying around. I am filling out SL form every day explaining in great detail how it does not work.

Are you saying you only have 3 crew working on a 737 and the 4th is on a break?

yes 3 crew on a 737 while the fourth is on a "break" one cart is half stocked too reduce the weight and they expect that the fourth crew member can sit down the back and do nothing. They spend the entire "break" getting service items for the rest of the crew doing the service. On a full SYD - MEL or SYD - BNE it's a complete joke and makes us look even more incompetent that we did with all four of us out there.

In real terms they will soon apply for CASA to operate at least the 737 - 700 with only 3 crew. Its only a matter of time..

they have actually already applied and had it granted by CASA

Please post the link pegasus. I need to see the document with my own eyes before I will believe CASA has just given away with safety, OH&S, etc.
If this is true I think the workplace ombudsman may need to visit VBA to protect staff.

Stand Strong!
 

STAND STRONG Virgin Blue Crew! Read the next EBA with care. Don't be fooled. If our issues have not been met fight back. Do not vote yes because your scared of what Virgin management may threaten to do.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Tigers, teeth and other myths
 

Im with WB, P747 please post the link.

I searched the CASA exemptions webpages today and couldnt find it.
The only new exemption is the new period for VB B737-800s being allowed to operate with 4 cabin attendants until June 2011.

CASA only test that an evacuation can be carried out in 90 seconds once back on the ground. Its function is not to test OH&S or whether all the customer service duties which are expected of us impact on whether less cabin attendants can actually complete our inflight cabin safety procedures, you know, the ones that CASA approves to be carried out by cabin attendants set out in airlines operating manuals. :ugh:

CASA is a toothless tiger. Cabin Attendants flight duty limitations and rest have never been regulated by CASA. The only thing it has ever regulated for us is to reduce our numbers on board. If only CASA could understand that a massive link exists between being prepared and alert to carry out an evacuation and length of duty; tasks required of a cabin attendent by an airline, no. of sectors, number of hot turns; no breaks and the list goes on.

The workplace ombudsman has no runs on the board with safeguarding cabin crew against the jaws of productivity.

The only body that seemed to care was the Industrial Relations Commission through Awards. As of today we begin to say goodbye to this institution forever. And before they go, the have one last task, to strip back our Awards for a 3rd time, this time its called Award modernisation. The FAAA is running a campaign to reduce the stripping back. If they are unsuccessful because we don't back them up by simply signing a petition, then we will have to go back to the days of old to fight for our flight time limitations; thats a lot of work which has already been fought and won. Lets not reinvent the wheel, we all know whats a fair limit in a day, we just have to explain it to all the beaurocrats who sit in the aircraft seats. :hmm:

Everyone stand strong Ground crew are standing strong on our EBA also which the company pulled before we could even vote on it as they knew it wouldnt get a YES vote, now we are beyond July 1st and the new fairness test we may get a real EBA:ok:

VB afterall is all about fairness 'keeping the air fare' when Macquarie Airports werent being 'fair' towards VB about terminal space at SYD they plastered a protest all over an aircraft, now be fair to your loyal employees VB, the ones on the front line delivering all the values you expect us to deliver to the guest so that they fly agian with VB.

Following meetings held between Virgin Blue Management and the FAAA during late June and early July, agreement

Is that a glimmer of 'balls' creeping out the bottom of the FAAA's shorts?

**FINALLY!**

Let the games begin. More union emails out today which I hope you are all reading. Lets see if our managers can actually listen as well as talk. Surely three no votes will get somebody's attention.

VIRGIN Blue cabin crew have rejected a five-year wage deal put to them by the airline and their own union that demanded "a high degree of flexibility" and unspecified productivity gains from them.:mad:
simulation credit immobilier

That was old news redroses. Who was here back then that is here today. With a group every month since then VBA would be lucky to have half the CC that voted that down.
The current crew have spoken once and they will speak again shortly. It would be wise to listen to the "people who love their jobs."
With CC, GC and ENG all in negotiations with the company things could get interesting. Oh and by the time those agreements are sorted the pilots will be due as well.
Certainly those invloved in HR will be quite busy over the next few years.

redroses the documents that are out this time round dont include any of those conditions which were rejected by crew.

The difference this time round is that our current agreement has been used as the base. There is more unification amongst the crew about where we cannot go in terms of the proposals that the company wants.

this latest document is not much different from the first one of this kind. The last time the company negotiated it took one and a half years. This time round they have only had the negotiations open for 2 weeks. What the ?

Well time to vote is almost upon us. Time to put up or shut up. I am sick and tired of all the complaining about it. Your vote is for the next three years and will impact on everyone else who works in the industry in Australia.

If you don't want to do the extra hours per year, then you know which way to vote.
If you want to say goodbye to overtime, you know which way to vote.
If you asked for black and white rules an got grey, you know which way to vote.
If your sick of being bullied, harrassed or intimidate in "roadshows", then you know which way to vote.

People who love their jobs love them for a reason. The reason would be obvious to those who have actually worked in airlines as opposed to those who never have.

Yes this company is doing it tough at the moment. CC have done more than enough to help out by taking part time and leave without pay voluntarily. Yet still they want more.

The difference between VBA and the two other low cost carriers is apparently the customer service. Hard to see how this can be maintained when all the crew are pi$$ed off at work. The race to the bottom is well and truly alive.

:ugh:

for love and money
 

we do love our job
the newspapers are right
the jobs Brett G. and Bruce H. created
but where are they now?

Even in the tough times at the beginning, wages were low but we went above and beyond to make the company thrive. We did heaps of work related stuff in our own time. Every new initiative they asked us to do to help the company thrive we did with a smile.

It was give and take.

7 years on our wages improved as a thank you for the tough times and even though there's still a new initiative around the corner its still carried out with an Award-winning smile. 8 years on we still do these things, but even with new technology in place, they dont make it on to a timesheet.

The current management who have written this EBA haven't been there very long have not been through 8 years worth of changes with us. They don't know or even try to understand. They are so focused on the millions they want to see saved, they don't care that the wages offered will not line up with our timesheets because all the 'for the love of it' activities will have to be on top of even more work hours.

Do they really think we don't want to do any more because we are lazy? Even though they offer time off as the carrot, there's no guarantee I will get it for that special event I want to go to, it will still be subject to operational requirement$. Did they not listen to us last time? There's no point in trying to convince us to vote yes for something that's not guaranteed - like the bidding system last time. The extra 10th day off is either going to be used sleeping because of the extra long days work I'll be doing or it will be a Tuesday that I didn't want anyway. There's no guarantee around ad hoc leave in the document. I'll still be waiting for it to be approved way beyond the term has come and go. If they want us to have the hours of admin workers or ground workers, then give us a desk or a counter, not an aisle to run up and down all day at 8,000ft pushing and pulling heavy equipment, hundreds of people looking to me when they are hungry, thirsty or scared.

I know which way to vote - for the love of my job, to safeguard it and a fair pay. The current management are trying to take more than they are giving and they are not caring about the job or that the Award-winning smile which will slip away.

EBA update from Virgin Blue Management
 

Hi, as you know posting on PPRuNe is not something Virgin Blue Management normally does. However, we feel it's important that crew have information that is both factual and balanced ahead of making their decision around the Cabin Crew Agreement. As a result, please find below the most recent email from Cabin Crew Management (sent 22/07/09). If you have any questions about the email or around the Agreement overall we encourage you to contact 'Cabin Crew Communications' or your CCDM as we won't be responding to individual posts via this site.

Thank you

Hi Team,

There’s no denying that the last 12 months have been difficult as we’ve adjusted to maintain a sustainable business to protect jobs. The economic pressure we’re facing isn't likely to let up anytime soon so we must find ways to ride out these tough times. Virgin Blue is no different to any other business – when the revenue slows down you have to adjust your cost base to protect jobs. We are not asking you for a pay cut or a pay freeze but a pay rise for an improvement in productivity.

We must achieve productivity and savings via a new Agreement - please understand this is a must do if we are to remain sustainable. While we acknowledge that we’re asking you to be rostered between 2-3 extra hours per week we’re also providing you with substantial benefits in turn that you don’t currently have access to:

§ Salary increases
- 3.5% increase to base salary upon commencement of first roster cycle
- 3% cash payment on your total salary in October 2010
- 3% increase to your base salary in October 2011
§ Shorter 2 year Agreement (expires 1 October 2011)
§ Annual leave loading to be paid out on leave accruals as at October 2009 (as a lump sum cash payment)
§ An extra 10 days off per year (10 days off per roster or 130 a year)
§ No compulsory drafting
§ 200 additional Part-Time positions
§ An additional 5 rostered days off per roster for Part-Time crew (an additional 70 days off per year)
§ Double time for all overtime at increased hourly rates
§ Guaranteed 2 consecutive days off after 5 or 6 rostered working days
§ Improved allowances for Ad Hoc Trainers, Buddy Trainers and for Acting Up
§ 10 weeks paid Maternity leave (currently 6 weeks)
§ 18 months Parental leave (includes option to come back Part-Time for 3 months)
§ Credit for rostered hours if you are sick
§ Partial deduction only of sick leave if you are mid duty sick
§ DTA of $7,000 (an increase of $565)

We really hope that we can finally move forward with a new Agreement. This will not only provide you with certainty regarding pay and conditions over the next 2 years in a challenging market but also finalise the Agreement development process which has been ongoing for over 3 years.

Regards

Cabin Crew Management Team

I am not a VB employee but as an interested outsider my immediate thought was that you are offering a pay rise to keep up with normal inflation and asking crew to work more hours. That to me equals a pay cut.

I'd rather take a pay cut than have 5500 people out of work. Things are only going tobe more challenging with Tiger increasing SYD services etc

I'm not so sure, there are job postings : visit Aviation Jobs, Pilot Jobs, Flight Jobs, Airline Jobs, Airployment for aviation jobs.

As a flight attendant running the business is not my job. Management are in place for this very reason. If I don't agree with the revised EBA I will NOT be voting yes.

I'll be considering MY personal needs, life & family commitments & all the years of hard work the FAAA have done to ensure flight attendants of australia have what we have today.

VB Management .......D4 for desperate?
 

Always thought a forum is about discussion - obviously NOT for VB Management who sign up and make one "lilly gilding post" that is factually wrong and then state they won't reply........(but they obviously must read).
As stated openly before I do sit upfront for another carrier but I have friends and family driving and in the VB cabin......so this directly affects my mortgage and family too!

IR & EBA's are about creating profit partnerships - just grow up and negotiate like professionals rather than shonky con artists. Talk to the people who do the job and empower them - you might even find ways to really save $. You might even find that silver bullet.

Like the ASIC description regarding managment bonuses - "to reward, retain and motivate".......maybe you should apply this thinking to the VB drivers and crew.

Unlike VB Management - I'm more than happy to discuss.
AT

Well said airtags.

VB Management should not assume they are immune to industrial action. They may well soon find themselves in a spot of embarrasment.

Spot on airtags.

:ok:

factual and balanced
 

factual- the offer is not asking for 2 to 3 extra hours a week, it is 4 extra hours a week to our timesheet

factual- annual leave loading currently keeps up with our salaries but under your proposal it will stand still forever

factual- the statement about paying ALL overtime at double time is not true because working on available days and on days off is overtime above our hours and these are not paid at double time.

factual- the only certainty on offer is higher hours, no rest breaks on 4 sectors; no backpay for the contribution we have made to the airline over the last 12 months, no increase to our allowances, a reduction in overtime as currently paid; no guarantee that we can take 6 weeks a year.

balanced- 8.3% increase in hours per year does not balance with 3.5% or 3% increase in money each year.

factual- for 3 years you have been asking for higher hours and for 3 years we have answered you 9hours 45minutes is the most we can do. before the tough times 5% was on offer, money cant buy zero exhaustion, and we dont want to have to prove month in month out whether we are exhausted or not; we want the work rules to be cope-able.

Some thoughts after another EBA is rejected.
 

Here are just two areas to consider when the terms 'cost-saving' and 'productivity gains' are thrown around by management:

1. Superannuation. Cabin crew super is calculated on a base salary of approx $36k (less in previous years), which equates to approx. $70 super per week. The structuring of our salaries with such a low base has ensured a significant cost saving since the beginning (approx. $2m per year if super was to actually be calculated on a more equitable base of $50k).

2. Supplementary payments. Using a VERY conservative estimate, 2 hours of unpaid supp payments per crew member, per week equates to just under $1.46 million in unpaid wages (2hrs * 46 wks * 1,500 crew * $10.60 = $1,462,800). This amount is probably much higher as many cabin supervisors do not submit supplementary payment forms for missed breaks as their CCDMs either harass them with questions or reject them without advising the CS or the CC. There is also a lack of transparency as we cannot track submitted supp forms to ensure they are paid or determine whether they've been approved or rejected.

These are just two areas that have allowed enormous cost-savings and lined pockets but have gone unnoticed during EBA negotiations. If the actual wage expense was accounted for by paying every hour of missed breaks (as the entitlement clearly states in our EBA) and crew were paid superannuation on a more fair base salary amount (somewhere in the vicinity of $45-50k), then I would have gladly supported the productivity gains proposed in both of the recently rejected agreements as our current and future financial situation would be protected in some small way.

How can management expect crew to agree to higher productivity by increasing daily duty hours and abolishing overtime rates after 9hrs without any fair compensation and not introducing any measures to guarantee crew either receive a break or actually 'receive' the supplementary payment they are entitled to?

Then there are some of the areas where countless labour hours are being wasted:

1. Propel. Resources are being wasted on a redundant feedback process to formally recognise that employees are performing their duties to an 'acceptable standard.' It is ridiculous to waste CS labour hours writing these reports and then pay CCDM labour hours to read these reports. It would be more efficient to provide feedback on those that are excelling in their roles and those who have areas for improvement and save the labour hours and costs as the vast majority of crew do not required micro-management.

2. CCOS and CCDMs. Precious financial resources are being wasted on key areas that cannot interpret our current EBA and make informed management decisions that avoid costly fines for EBA breaches even when these very breaches are brought to their attention in black and white. After the issue I heard about regarding a rejected denomination of an available day because a duty had already been assigned, I suggest anyone that isn't a member of the union to join them as they were the only ones that fought to ensure the crew member was treated fairly as crewing, the CCDMs and CCOS would not admit to breaching the EBA and forced the crew member to operate an illegal duty.

It is so insulting that money is being wasted in so many areas but cabin crew are being expected to work harder and longer for less money to fund this waste! We aren't even being paid our full entitlements now or being treated fairly in regards to the conditions stated in the EBA but they continuously bully and intimidate us into accepting poorer conditions.

Managers see dollars and cents but cannot seem to exercise any sense when it comes to negotiating fairly with crew to ensure job satisfaction and adequate remuneration. Are 10-12hr days and 6 day 60-82 hr working weeks the only way for the company to survive?

$$$
 

Id have to agree with most crew's comments reduce DM's to 2 per base!.

$$$
 

I watch X5 DM's sit in an office for an hour in SYD discussing what they did on the weekend and the latest fashion?? now what is it they do again? oh thats right provide useless feedback that goes no where and waste possible revenue sitting on a 'development flight' where a revenue paying guest could be sitting.

stupid

What is going to happen now that VB have applied to terminate our current agreement? This is unfair, do they not realise what a whole company of ticked off CC can equal too? Many flights not operating, massive loss of $$ and customer loyalty sound good to them? Keep pushing us VB and see what we can pull out too.
If VB keep pushing us this hard, they are suddenly going to end up with a lot of resignations, and I can just imagine the delays and cost from not having enough crew (already happening now) and paying to put a lot more crew through schools.

I am at breaking point currently, as i'm sure is everyone else. This has just got to stop we are working harder than ever before and all this is serving is showing me how much harder I will fight to stop conditions getting any worse. :=

DJTibby - We can only fight as one if we are all members of the union. Crew need to be members of the union before they can take protected industrial action.

It really is a matter of achieving a strong union membership in order to protect our current conditions. How did the old Qantas flight attendants achieve such good working conditions and how did they manage to maintain them while every other airline in Australia, including their own, was paying their crew increasingly less? They had a strong union membership at above 90% of crew which meant the company listened when the union negotiated on behalf of its members and even though times have changed, the union has managed to protect their conditions without bargaining away too much.

During our first EBA negotiation, many crew believed the union was working for Virgin Blue. However, during this time union membership amongst VB cabin crew was still only around 50-60%. The harsh reality is that VB did allow the union to bargain as a token gesture but didn't really listen to their requests as it only represented half of the workforce. The result was a less than desirable EBA proposal that 89% of us voted against but we only have ourselves to blame. Had the union been able to say that they represent 90-95% of cabin crew at VB during the bargaining process, then the published proposal would have been much different than what we voted on.

It seems things have only gone backwards since then with the company completely locking-out the union from the negotiation process for both of the last two EBAs that were voted down.

Remember the biased surveys after the EBAs were voted down? Questions such as, 'Would you prefer an 11 hour day or a 12 hour day?' These questions were designed to elicit data that could be used against us. Where was the option to choose NEITHER? VB will argue that the survey results indicate we wanted 11 hour days and were given 11 hour days in the EBA proposal but we still voted against it. We need qualified industrial officers fighting for ALL of us during these hearings, not just half of us.

We've all heard the talk about reducing the crew complement further on both the Boeing and E-Jet and we are all dropping our bags off before sign-on according to the new procedure that aims at reducing our sign-on time to 45 minutes. These are just two of the strategies that are in the pipeline that may be forced upon us without the opportunity to object. Imagine how many others there are that may be implemented to gain extra duty time to roster in more flights during our days at work. We are in the dark as there is no transparency in the bargaining process or in regards to the plans management have for cabin crew.

Now is the time for every crew member that is concerned about protecting their working conditions to unite as one voice and join the FAAA and allow them to bargain on our behalf. By increasing the membership amongst VB cabin crew from half of us to over 90% of us, we would stand a much better chance at achieving a more desirable bargaining outcome.

However, if you just want to complain about being hard done by for the next several years, then don't join the union but bear in mind, you will only have yourself to blame for whatever comes next.

:ok:


Below is the latest FAAA Newsletter:
----
7 August 2009 VB 33-09

To: All Virgin Blue Cabin Crew

CABIN CREW AGREEMENT UPDATE

Bargaining for a replacement agreement
Following the recent ballot result, the Association has considered its position in relation to a bargaining for replacement agreement. As your bargaining representative, we have outstanding concerns as to whether Virgin Blue
Management have met their good faith bargaining requirements. We wrote to Management earlier this week seeking further negotiation meetings and full
disclosure of costings and fatigue data, with a view to reaching and making an agreement with Cabin Crew.

Should Virgin Blue not respond to our correspondence and alleviate our concerns by mid next week, then we will once again seek the assistance of Fair Work Australia. We will keep Crew updated in relation to this very important matter.

Existing agreement
On 28 July 2009, prior to the ballot results for the company’s second proposal being announced, the Association was served with an Application for Termination of the existing Certified Agreement, the Virgin Blue Cabin Crew and Flight Attendants’ Association of Australia Agreement II 2002-2005.

On Monday 17 August 2009, the framework and timeline for these proceedings will be discussed and formalised by Fair Work Australia. We will advise Crew of the key dates in relation to this very important matter, once directed by Fair Work Australia.

This newsletter was written by Carolyn Summers, Industrial Officer and authorised by John Playford, Manager Industrial Relations

fair points vb_girl,

but none that are very good selling points for the union.

Why would Ms. Fencesitter join an organisation forever excusing their lack of balls based on the fact they don't represent enough people and need more membership to be taken seriously?

Last time I checked, the airline would be equally as far up the proverbial creek with 50% of its crew taking industrial action as opposed to 80-90%??

The premise that the union has no power is a farce. Use it or lose it.

If the union did less pussyfooting and stuck its teeth in, maybe people would be motivated to join.

If they can't do it now, then all hope is lost.

How does one set up a union?

Union seeks financial data from Virgin Blue

The domestic flight attendants' union has written to Virgin Blue seeking cabin crew cost and fatigue data and foreshadowed that it will use good faith bargaining rules to have it provided if the company doesn't roll over.

The FAAA domestic and regional division's IR manager, John Playford, said today the union was yet to receive a reply from Virgin Blue.

The FWA has already issued a consent recommendation directing the FAAA's domestic and regional division and the airline to meet and for Virgin Blue to "genuinely consider and respond to" union proposals and to "consider and discuss any requests for disclosure of the types of information raised at the conference (costings and fatigue data)" (see Related Article).

Meanwhile, FWA Senior Deputy President Peter Richards will next Monday afternoon hold a directions hearing to deal with Virgin Blue's application to terminate the nominally expired collective agreement covering cabin crew (see Related Article).

Virgin Blue was unavailable for comment.

Maybe the union should consider bargaining on behalf of its members only and see what they can muster up for their membership base in regards to a new set of working conditions and allow the company to do what it pleases with the rest of the crew.

I am quite certain that Virgin Blue management would welcome a proposal of this nature as it would still represent a substantial cost-saving across 50% of its cabin crew as the union would not oppose the company's application to terminate our current agreement for non-union members.

It could be a win-win solution as the union is essentially the only thorn in the company's side when it comes to terminating our current agreement. If they don't oppose the application and fight for cabin crew, who will?

Unless, of course, there are some high-flying non-union law-types working covertly as cabin crew that are waiting for the opportunity to represent non-union members during these hearings and negotiations.

nice idea except the law doesnt allow that to happen

Maybe if the FAAA hadn't sided with the company during the very first round of EBA negotiations, they wouldn't have had such a dramatic downturn in membership!

Perhaps if those who left the union saw that you were in fact representing the employees rather than the company, then maybe your membership would increase.

It's your own fault that your membership has dropped. You forgot whose side you're supposed to be on!

Let's not allow the facts to get in the way of a good story.

Just because the FAAA had negotiated for 18mths with a headstrong company and could not get any further, turning over what they had bargained to the Crew to have their say, instead of organising a strike, this is apparently siding with the company?

I'd say this showed integrity. They recommended the deal for fear of what was to come, which is what we are experiencing now. I'd say that showed balls considering the company opted not to bargain again. Their worst fears were realised, they foresaw it but still sceptics bag them. What would you have done, organised a strike with 50% of employees going out, the other 50% working showing all of Australia that Cabin Crew were not united in their quest for better conditions? Real smart.

Is Rocky with you on that one?