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Considering all the above and the fact that our superannuation is calculated from our base salary and not our total income, do the 10 extra days off per year really warrant a 'yes' vote?? |
realistic
what you or i individually think as realistic is academic
what matters is what we as a group think is realistic a collective vote decides majority rules IR law makers handed over the decision to each workforce to make final decision on whether work agreements up for offer are accepted or not so it comes down to a collective decision best our workgroup is surveyed accurately and fairly then :p otherwise people department will never know what we as a collective will and wont accept as a fair go fairness might start with 28 day rosters equalling maximum of 130 ordinary hours -ordinary hrs as per FAAA AVL notice- gives them 25 extra hrs a year which when costed out is worth approx $500 average per cc pa a fair go would have to include backpay to september because we have worked hard to keep company up there since our last payrise the lesser of two evils would be lower pay for newbies but AVL rates should be same for every cc and same for every cs and based on the higher rate so that newbies not overused as cheaper inhumane option thats at least worth 3.6% right there and no more if they still want us to have a mix of flying and AVL they have to give us 10 days off each roster anyway its not a bonus or a valid vote buyer |
Duty Hour Penalty
If they want us to work more hours, fine, but there needs to be more incentive to do so.
I came accross this in the Qantas Domestic pty ltd agreement. For those not familiar, Qantas Domestic pty ltd is the new company that Qantas has established to employ Flight Attendants on lesser wages etc that it's current staff employed directly through the airline. If they can manage to have somehthing like the following, surely we can. Something like this would make me look twice at what they're currently offering. Duty hour penalty (DHP) 20.5.1. In addition to the base salary, flight attendants must be paid the following duty hour penalty (DHP) per hour, in accordance with the following fomula, depending on the time and day of their dty. The amount is calculated by multiplying the dollar value for a point by the number of points. TIME MON TUE WED THUR FRI PH/SA SUN 0001 – 0500 6 6 6 6 6 9 9 0501 – 1500 1 1 1 1 1 7 7 1501 – 1900 5 5 5 5 5 7 7 1901 – 2200 5 5 5 5 7 9 9 2201 – 2400 6 6 6 6 9 9 9 20.5.2. Points are allocated to bands for duty to achieve a special payment scheme for unsociable hours, weekend days, and Company approved public holidays. 1 point is equal to $1. |
Qantas Domestic Pty Ltd was not made to cheapen the Qantas Short Haul work force. If you actually compared the Qantas Short Haul EBA7 and the Qantas Domestic Pty Ltd, its very similar and you'll see that the base pay of Qantas Domestic cabin crew is actually significantly higher than EBA7 crew. The reason why Qantas Domestic Pty Ltd was created was to create a more flexible workforce which suits the business and the employee through the potential uncertain economic conditions.
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Qantas Domestic Pty Ltd was not made to cheapen the Qantas Short Haul work force. If you actually compared the Qantas Short Haul EBA7 and the Qantas Domestic Pty Ltd, its very similar and you'll see that the base pay of Qantas Domestic cabin crew is actually significantly higher than EBA7 crew. The reason why Qantas Domestic Pty Ltd was created was to create a more flexible workforce which suits the business and the employee through the potential uncertain economic conditions. |
But, taking into account the QD basic pay is a lot less than DJ basic pay, right??? 35k vs what, 40 or 45???
Plus we don't get paid for every hour on reserve, it's a 1 in 4 unless called out in which case you get paid for each hour actually worked. |
But, taking into account the QD basic pay is a lot less than DJ basic pay, right??? 35k vs what, 40 or 45??? Plus we don't get paid for every hour on reserve, it's a 1 in 4 unless called out in which case you get paid for each hour actually worked I was putting forward what I thought was a good idea that Virgin Blue should be considering as part of the current EBA proposals, which as it stands is all take and not a lot of give. Which is why I think a Duty Hour Penalty would be a way for them to give us something, in return of us giving them more hours and flexibility etc etc. |
Duty hour penalty (DHP)
i called for a price check on this item
we have penalty for this in our salary already :bored: our base salary is $35611 thats around $3500 pa approximately it could work in both our favours to switch to DHP |
we have penalty for this in our salary already http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wbored.gif our base salary is $35611 thats around $3500 pa approximately it could work in both our favours to switch to DHP The Duty Hour Penaly (DHP) is another payment for working unsociable hours, weekends etc. So you would receive this depending on the times of your duties, i.e earlies, lates, BOC etc... |
Just spoke to two mates from Virgin Blue, and they, like myself, seem to think the base is around the $46000 mark? The EBA that states our base is $36000 is the 2002 EBA. For example. the salary in 2005 was around $43000 but now its around $46000 and was proposed to be up around $48000 at the roadshows was it not? If the base is, as you say, around $35000, then I for one am making nearly $30000 per annum in allowances (including monthly commission payments)! Of course we could be wrong as we could be reading it all incorrectly (eg: it does include allowances in this sum so perhaps some people exclude this in their reading) but clarification for all would be awesome. In addition for QD being not cheaper than existing staff at QF and having a higher base pay, they do not receive certain allowances so wouldn't this effect this difference? I guess this will sort itself out once the wages come through the bank! Apart from the obvious flaws (flexibility), the money side of this deal doesn't sound bad at all... considering some of QF's latest offerings. |
These are current salary figures as taken from the roadshow:
CC1 Base: 34,461 DTA: 6,435 Grooming: 1,290 Misc Expenses: 3,102 Total: 45,788 CC2 Base: 35,611 DTA: 6,435 Grooming: 1,290 Misc Expenses: 3,102 Total: 46, 438 CS Base: 43,368 DTA: 6,435 Grooming: 1,290 Misc Expenses: 3,102 Total: 54,195 Super is only paid on the base salary, not on the total. The rest of our income consists of untaxed overnight allowances, overtime paid for any duty extending beyond 9 hours per day, income for AVL days, catering commission, draft payments and supp payments for missed breaks - which many of us do not receive. Currently, the overtime, overnight allowance, AVL and draft income is at risk. Currently, crewing do not have a huge choice of crew to utilise on APT and AVL during disruptions. The restructure would give them greater choice and they will be calling crew with the lowest hours to avoid paying more than necessary. Do not be fooled into thinking otherwise as crewing have KPIs to meet as well. Consider the saving and productivity gain by removing L2X, the countless hours of unpaid supp payments that the company is currently saving due to the supp forms that aren't submitted or are rejected that we can't track. Using a VERY conservative estimate of just 2 hours of unpaid supp payments per crew member, per week: 2hrs * 46 wks * 1,500 crew * $10.60 = $1,462,800 That is already a $1.46 million dollar amount that is already been saved on unpaid supp payments! This amount of free-labour isn't currently being considered as part of their wage expense but they neglect to mention this in any of their figures. Have they looked at the over-inflated micro-management structure consisting of development managers, cabin crew operational support, service-flow analysts and review teams? Have they considered moving some of these resources back into flying? Have they considered negotiating the current AVL structure with the Union and possibly offering a salary increase and only paying overtime rates after a minimum amount of rostered hours have been worked and allowing us the choice to decline the overtime after another limit? This is more aligned with the concept of bargaining than what is currently being offered. We do not have an obligation to vote away current conditions simply because other airlines are offering their crew less than what we are currently earning. Read the emails from the FAAA posted in this thread regarding the management spin and AVL days and why the current structure was negotiated, do the sums and make an informed decision. DO NOT feel guilty for valuing your exchange of labour at the current salary level, after all, they thought we were worth this much 7 years ago - why do they think we're worth less now? := |
DJCCGuy
times your base set out in vb_girls figures by 10% this is the price of your current DHP or ILS CC2 = $3,561.10 to get DHP we might have to bargain one against the other thats apparently what was done to get DHP aka band payments clever because that way those who do the unsociables get the reward theres more incentive for turning up to shifts when your friends are out smart bidding options steer the unsociables to those who want them thats the way most companies operate Duty Hour Shift Penalties not In Lieu of Shift penalties vb should seriously consider in their proposal |
Currently, crewing do not have a huge choice of crew to utilise on APT and AVL during disruptions. The restructure would give them greater choice and they will be calling crew with the lowest hours to avoid paying more than necessary. Do not be fooled into thinking otherwise as crewing have KPIs to meet as well. Remember 28 day rosters are coming regardless of this EBA outcome. I heard it at the roadshow and its on the intranet, as a statement, in the 'questions and answers' section under the EBA section. We do not have an obligation to vote away current conditions simply because other airlines are offering their crew less than what we are currently earning. Thanks for clearing the base pay question. Good posts everyone :ok: |
Firstly we get paid, inclusive "a 10% payment in lieu of shift penalty 14 (e)" from the current EBA. Now this compared to guest services penalties of different shifts, days of the week, and public holidays isnt that much. I would hazard a guess and say the true rate should be more like 25% at minimum. It would also be a nightmare to keep track of personally and people would probably still end up missing out on payments.
-- Remember 28 day rosters are coming regardless of this EBA outcome. I heard it at the roadshow and its on the intranet, as a statement, in the 'questions and answers' section under the EBA section. -- Superannuation is covered by the Federal Govt. 9% is the current amount that has to be paid by VB. They dont pay super on overnights but I am sure they would have to pay it on everything else. Will check my payslip. -- BG was issued 331,661 fully paid shares late last year as a bonus 2007/08 current value over $100,000. He performance for 08/09 could see a maximum of 1,600,000 shares provided he meets his targets. He currently holds nearly 30,000,000 shares in VBA. Current value $9.3 mill. I wonder what sort of a pay rise that was for him. If he earns $2mill a year then it was 5%. Where is our payrise? -- I encourage everyone to join the FAAA. At least we will show them we are united. Last EBA membership was over 80% this time lets get it to 90% so if the company want to "bring it on" then we will be together. |
railroading survey...
best our workgroup is surveyed accurately and fairly then EBA Survey #2 - Post EBA Roadshow Page 1 EBA Survey Page 1 of 3 This EBA Survey is anonymous. It is important we develop a new Agreement through a process which ensures that your views are accurately represented so your honest feedback is appreciated. In the EBA Roadshow you heard about the proposed new agreement including proposed changes and benefits. In particular, we discussed 3 options. This survey focuses primarily on Options B & C as Option A does not fulfill the double digit productivity we require as we covered off in the roadshow. At the end of this survey, there is a free text field so you can provide any additional comments. *1. Please select your base --Please Select-- Melbourne Brisbane Sydney *2. Please select your workgroup --Please Select-- Cabin Crew Cabin Supervisor *3. Please select your type of work --Please Select-- Full Time Part Time Please select the statement for each of the questions below that best reflects your opinion *4. Under Option B, it is proposed we move to maximum daily hours of 10h15min in a 28 day roster period with an average of 140 hours in a roster period
I would prefer rostered maximum daily hours of:
*9. Under the proposed changes to available days you will only be paid EXTRA monies for time worked on available days where you have worked over 140 hours in a roster period
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Survey Cont....(pages 2 and 3.)
Page 2 EBA Survey
Page 2 of 3 *16. It is proposed to reduce sick leave for new starters only in year 1 from 26 to 21 days (This only applies to crew who join Virgin Blue after the new EBA is implemented) I would be willing to accept this option I would not be willing to accept this option *17. It is proposed to reduce sick leave with all days cumulative (no differentiation between sick day and URTI day). Please select your preferred option. I would be willing to accept a reduction in sick leave to 16 days I would be willing to accept a reduction in sick leave to 17 days I would be willing to accept a reduction in sick leave to 18 days I would not be willing to accept a reduction in sick leave *18. If sick leave is reduced, it is proposed to change the requirement for a medical certificate ie you will only require a medical certificate for absences over 1 day I am willing to accept this change I am not willing to accept this change *19. After hearing about the proposed changes to available day payments, which of the following statements supports your views on makeup of rosters? (Note: bids for days off, early starts and late starts will still apply) I would like rosters made up of a mixture of flying, airport reserve and available days I would prefer a full standby roster (full standby roster comprises airport reserve and available days) *20. I would be prepared to work an 11 hour day with 11 days off... If my pay was increased by 4% If my pay was increased by 4.5% If my pay was increased by 5% I would not be prepared to work an 11 hour day with 11 days off *21. I would be prepared to accept a pay rise of only 2% - 2.5% if I could keep my maximum daily hours at 9hrs 45mins and my rostered hours at 140hrs with 9.2 days off in a 28 day roster Yes No 22. If you are currently Part Time or interested in taking up Part Time in the next 3 years select the Part Time rostering arrangement that would best suit your needs A range of hours eg between 70 and 84 hours A range of days eg between 8 and 12 days 23. Please select the maximum number of days in a 28 day roster that you want to work under a Part Time arrangement (you will still need to fulfil 70 hours duty) 8 days 9 days 10 days 11 days More than 11 days *24. It is proposed we replace the overnight allowance with a Trip Allowance of between $3.00 - $3.30. The allowance would be payable from sign on in home base to sign off in home base and on both day trips and overnights. The Trip allowance would continue to be tax free on overnights. I would be willing to accept this option I would not be willing to accept this option I would prefer to stay with the current overnight allowance *25. Would you be willing to accept a trip allowance higher than the proposed $3.00 - $3.30 if it was ONLY paid on overnights and not on day trips I would be willing to accept a higher trip allowance if it was paid ONLY on overnights I would be willing to accept a trip allowance if it wasn't paid on day trips just a note on these two options- isn't a and b the same answer essentially, there fore no real choice??? .. as with most of the q. in this survey. how about a 3rd option that says I would be willing to accept a trip allowance if it was higher- at a rate at least fair, ie $4.50+ and paid on all duty".... or a forth option... "NO." oh and FYI you have to select an option to be able to move on to the next question!! *26. It is proposed to increase unpaid parental leave up to 18 months (currently 12) with the added ability to return to work as Part Time crew for up to 3 months. Does this have value to you? Yes, I would be interested in returning to work as Part Time crew for up to 3 months No, I would not be interested in the Part Time option when I return to work This does not affect me *27. If the agreement was based on Option C as presented in the EBA Roadshow eg 28 day roster, average of 150 hours, maximum daily hours of 11hrs and 11 days off), how would you vote? Yes No ......BIG NO:= *28. If the agreement was based on Option B as presented in the EBA Roadshow eg 28 day roster, average of 140 hours, maximum daily hours of 10hrs15mins and 10 days off), how would you vote? Yes No .....BIG FAT NO:= *29. Of the following proposed changes please select the change that is MOST important to you: --Please Select-- Roster period -Roster hours Daily hours -Available Days -Overtime -Rest- Sick Leave -Standby rosters 30. Please provide reason for your answer above *31. Of the following proposed changes please select the change that is LEAST important to you: --Please Select-- Roster period -Roster hours Daily hours -Available Days -Overtime -Rest- Sick Leave -Standby rosters 32. Please provide reason for your answer above (comment box... one of these should be attached to every set of anwers, so you can wirte your own instead of forcefully selecting an option of the lesser evil to be able to move on the next next question.) *and* for the record it's all important to me. *33. Of the following proposed benefits please select the benefit that is MOST important to you --Please Select-- More Days Off -Part Time -Trip Allowance -No Drafting -Increase in salary 34. Please provide reason for your answer above (comment box) *35. Of the following proposed benefits please select the benefit that is LEAST important to you: --Please Select-- More Days Off -Part Time- Trip Allowance- No Drafting- Increase in salary 36. Please provide reason for your answer above 37. Please provide any additional comments you have here about the information you learnt in the EBA Roadshow This survey is powered by Survey Software - Online Survey Software ? Web Survey Software Certified Anonymous Survey - Learn More SurveyMethods.com Certified Anonymous Survey. What is a SurveyMethods.com Certified Anonymous Survey? This means that your email id and IP address associated with your survey response are not visible to the administrator of this survey. Can the survey administrator revert this survey to a non-anonymous survey? No. Once a survey is set to be anonymous it can not be reverted to a non-anonymous survey, hence protecting the anonymity of survey respondents Hope this is useful for everyone on this forum - please keep up the feedback so those out there who don't fully understand the changes demanded in the proposed EBA can gain general insight to the matter. And so management and FAAA can gauge what we really want, or more so what we really dont want! |
Keep in mind that Virgin is not the 'budget' airline it was last time the EBA was negotiated.
Every day they introduce a new 'initiative'. Think of all the extra work you personally have to do in relation to Live2Air, Premium Economy, and Velocity golds, and the removal of L2X. Those few moments of peace you had in the past have been stolen, and replaced with time spent dealing with extra complaints and problem televisions, or providing extra service and attention to the folk the airline is relying on to help it ride the economic storm (golds and premium). You ARE working harder, you ARE working more, and all this is within the constraints of the current EBA. |
"*25. Would you be willing to accept a trip allowance higher than the proposed $3.00 - $3.30 if it was ONLY paid on overnights and not on day trips
I would be willing to accept a higher trip allowance if it was paid ONLY on overnights I would be willing to accept a trip allowance if it wasn't paid on day trips just a note on these two options- isn't a and b the same answer essentially, there fore no real choice??? .. as with most of the q. in this survey. how about a 3rd option that says I would be willing to accept a trip allowance if it was higher- at a rate at least fair, ie $4.50+ and paid on all duty".... or a forth option... "NO." oh and FYI you have to select an option to be able to move on to the next question!!" EBA babylon I couldnt agree more, that is exactly what i thought when filling this out. The survey is rigged, we are forced to choose an answer where they can now go and say "look crew all agreed to accept a trip allowance only on o/n not on day trips".... ONLY because we didn't have any other damned option!!!!! :ugh: This makes me really angry, why should we give up our current conditions for NO real benefits. :ugh: |
That survey is so biased....!
All I can suggest is you copy the sections which force an undesirable answer into the final comments box and tell them what you REALLY think :E Or is there a limit on number of characters???? |
All crew members should band together and not bother to respond to the survey. What has been offered is an absolute insult to all VB cabin crew. It's all take and no give. If they do not get any response, they might finally get the impression we are not interested in their ludicrous proposals!:eek:
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All crew members should band together and not bother to respond to the survey. |
show is now live to air on surveymethods.com
is as expected VB shopping list hasnt changed even after "consultation" with us they save at our expense our shopping list hasnt been heard neither has our request to barter through our broker hope their KRA s are not what they seem sham bargaining time for consumer affairs to check on VB shoppers guide to the galaxy wonder what Julia would say about the show filling out survey still important though otherwise will not be a balanced result on paper for IR law makers to see price wars used to be over seat sales not staff wars destructives $8m collectives Yet to bid |
I refuse to do the survey- lots of the questions do not have a suitable answer/option - like they are trying to trap us into choosing the better of the evils. Besides which - they seemed to have ignored the results of the 1st survey anyway so it seems to be a token gesture to make us feel 'included'. Also in my roadshow we were not shown any slides and options a,b,c,d whatever was never explained.
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Slideshow
The slide show is now up on the intranet to look at... under eba tab on the cc page... interesting read, you grasp more when there's no talking with it:\
I don't want to do the survey either for the same reasons of being herded to give the answers they want, and the coments sure as hell won't make it to survey result charts. But, on the other hand I think we should do the survey and make it known in the comments that it is biased and unreasonable, so if industrial action is sought, then it's documented that we tried. |
graffiti...
Hope not, thats just immature and deconstructive:hmm:
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Just a couple of things that I heard or asked when I was in the EBA Roadshow which might clarify a few things (although, I have heard that people are getting mixed information depending on WHO is taking the Roadshow for that day)
* Mr Tanner announced that overnights won't go all together. We would have to have bases at all ports where we overnight aircraft. (e.g. MKY, TSV, CNS, LST, HBA, CBR, OOL...etc) And could you imagine the start up cost of setting up bases in all these ports just for a few staff??? * Perth Base has been put on hold temproarily and may not open in 2009. Although they now have a pilot base there at the moment, as one poster mentioned, they have to as they cannot cross crew from EMB to 737 v.v. The increase in capacity at the moment is due to the mining contracts that we have to KTA and ZNE. With the economic downturn and the loss of hundreds of mining jobs because of this, who knows how long we can maintain these flights for during this period. If VB employed a couple of hundred crew and the bottom end fell out of the mining industry during the recession, VB would have to lay off all those crew, and perhaps shut the base down, costing them a lot of money. At the moment, it is cheaper for them to have an EMB/737 crew member (or CS infact) to sit on airport for 5 hours in PER which they are currently doing, and paying for them to overnight there. * TOTALLY agree with Ozangel re middle management. We have 15-20 DM's and 2 BM's in Brisbane. In my calculations we have 10-15 DM's too many, and 1 BM too many. The DM's complain about having to manage 65-odd staff members when as CS's we are responsible for anywhere up to 700 guests A DAY!!!! Yet we don't complain about taking care of this many people. Hell, I heard that at EK, 1 CC Manager is responsible to 500 cabin crew members.... so what are our DM's complaining about??? None of them are even still current so they can't even comment to us on anything contained in our manuals. I think a cut to this department will save a considerable amount of money for the company. Why don't we start with job cuts from here. All those in agreeance raise your hands. Bring back some CCDL's, that way they are being more counter-productive. * I too have done the calculations based on a 1680 hour year that we are doing at the moment and the proposed 1820 hour year that they want to do, and my calculations also come in short and for me that results in a NO vote straight up... You want me to work more hours in a year, then pay me for them. Don't tell me that I get an extra 10 days off in a year... that is irrelevent as I am working and extra 140hrs a year....It also means another month of Propels I need to write.... :ugh: * We are always being told that we are paid to work 140 hours a month, but rarely are we rostered the full 140hrs a month. Say we are rostered 125hrs for the month, but pick up an extra 20 hours in Available pay. They are saying that 15 of those hours we are double-dipping because we have already been paid for those 15 hours. Well, why aren't we being rostered 140 hours a month if that is what we are being paid for.... There is a problem with Rostering not with the crew.... Don't blame us for something the company agreed to back in 2002 when they agreed to have available day pay and only roster us 125hrs a month. They need to fix the problems in their own backyard before trying to blame us. * Here's one to think about. With the new 5 levels of CC they are looking at. If you were on CC5 and a new hire was on CC1, who do you think they would call out first if they needed someone for overtime??? Food for thought. * Oh, and Cargoattendant, don't go round condoning graffiti in the aircraft. Not is it only against the law as you are tampering with an aircraft, but this is my work environment. How would you like it if I came into your bedroom and scrawled "VOTE NO" all over your bedroom walls??? Or any wall in your house for that matter. I spend a large majority of my day in these aircraft and I found it appalling and utterly childish when I saw it last time. In fact, I reported it last time. There are other more mature ways of discussing this and its not defacing company property. * Also FYI, regardless of what Management tell you, there is already a project in the pipeline about reducing crew on a 170 to 2. I was told by management that this wasn't going to happen, then at a roadshow I had, it all came out in the wash. I have heard rumours of 3 in a 700, but to this date, yet to be confirmed. *Well, that is my say.... Oh, one more thing, if you are not a union member, consider joining. Remember, there is strength in numbers. And Mr Tanner said he would be very very very surprised if at least 20% of CC were union members and wouldn't believe it if the number was higher.... Well, little does he know.... not very much I say. Let me know your thoughts on my post people. Cheers. ;o) |
ccguy,
That's exactly what I said about the bases in a previous post but no-one wanted to hear it. New bases have to make ECONOMIC sense to the company before they will pour money into it. There are a lot of fixed costs associated with opening a base and paying for even hundreds of overnights won't rival that cost. Overnights only cost the company $4 mill per year (as stated in my roadshow), when you look at the overall costs for the company as a whole it is not very high. It doesn't come close to fuel costs or even the leasing of their permanent office spaces around the country. It's hardly the "fat" they are presenting it is. This whole "new bases" talk is designed to panic crew into voting for a DTA, even a ridiculously low one. I totally agree with the DM situation. No other airline that I know of has such a high ratio of DMs to crew. Crew are already managed on flights by CS's, it's enough. The company needs dedicated crew who give their all and fly the flag for their brand. Get your priorities straight. I agree, optimise your rosters guys, that's within your control and should be your first port of call. Yes, it's not an "extra" ten days off a year at all. It's the additional days rest required to accomodate a higher work load in the year. This is not a freebie we're being offered here. QF have 9 days off per 28 day roster but they are also paid additional $ over 120hrs per month. So we can deduct from that, a QF roster would average less than 120hrs per month (260hrs per year less than VB want us to work, or put another way 26 fewer working days in the year) and that is why they have 9 days off. Please don't deface the aircraft. It's bad enough our passengers treat them like a dump, without crew doing the same. I'd like my workplace to be respected and cared for. I don't want to spend my 2 and half minutes a day in which I am expected to eat a meal, cleaning up your handiwork. I don't need to be told how to vote, I have a mind of my own, and I sincerely hope so do the rest of the crew. |
What happens if we vote NO?
What happens if we vote NO?
I have only done some brief reading on this subject, but it looks like they can't force us onto a less than favourable agreement. The Workplace Relations Amendment Act 2008 (the Transition Act) commenced on 28 March 2008. The Transition Act introduced a new no-disadvantage test (NDT) which applies to all workplace agreements made after the commencement of the Act. In order to pass the no-disadvantage test, the agreement must not result, on balance, in a reduction in the overall terms and conditions of employment under any reference instrument (eg. current EBA). However, the agreement may still be approved even if it does not pass the no-disadvantage test if approval of the agreement would not be contrary to the public interest (eg. part of a reasonable strategy to deal with a short term crisis and assist in the revival of the business). Virgin Blue can also apply to the AIRC to terminate our current EBA as it has passed the nominal expiry date. However, 'the AIRC may only terminate a collective agreement if it is satisfied that it is not contrary to the public interest to do so including having regard to the views of and the effect of terminating the agreement on the parties bound by the agreement.' If you'd like to obtain more information, see the 'Agreement making and the no-disadvantage test policy guide PDF' available from the Australian Government Workplace Authority site. |
No Vote
Yes vote = agreement will come in even if we are worse off and will stay that way forever even after the global crisis
No vote = IR law makers will safeguard our current conditions No brainer then No = safer fairer conditions |
lets think clearly
Hey, I may not agree with everything that happens, but I have had other jobs in other places. Many people I work with haven't REALLY worked full time outside of aviation....
I Applied for the job, no one came to my home and begged me to work here. I work an average of 30 hours a week ( and yes, I am tired too) and get paid quite Ok for the effort. A lot more then I got in hospitality and for a lot nicer job. I don't have to clean grease, kitchen bins or make up beds in a hotel. My cleaning is sometimes gross but not Every day. I have lots of ex-Ansett friends and I have lots of friends who have lost their jobs in banks and in automotive industry. Perhaps we could learn some lessons and work together as a union and as a company. I don't know about you but I would rather see all of us with a job then all of us without one. my old Base Manager was a pr**k and I am glad he is gone. I don't really know the new ones but I have had two CCDM's and they have both treated me with dignity and respect when i had some tough personal times and I know lots of crew who have had them do right by them as well. I really like and trust that lady doing the CS stuff too, I wish she would be at the road shows. anyway, I want to pay my mortgage, live a happy life and I don't mind working hard. I think we need to keep the emotion out and think about long term here. |
You really need to get an education on how a business stays in business. Look around you people. I have had 5 friends lose their jobs since christmas? I may be a bit older and know what a recession is........this is seriously bad times. i hear some people at VB in IT got made redundant already, I feel sorry for them and their families.
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Alvinski01,
People ARE thinking longterm when they talk about voting no. Once conditions are gone, they are gone for good. Yes you are right, we get paid "OK" right now but do you want to be paid "not OK" in the future? Just because you have had a worse job in your life doesn't mean the current one is overpaid for the work. There are much better paid and easier jobs in the world too, but what does that have to do with this one? No-one here is questioning the worth of a CCDM, but what they are questioning is why 100% of all cost savings must come directly from your paypackets. They are pointing out areas where savings could be gained within the company elsewhere. Especially when other airlines have proven that it's not necessary to have such a high ratio of managers to crew. The company is not about to go under, this is simply their wishlist of paying their crew less money because it would be nice for them to do that. You on the otherhand will be left with the reality of $50 a week less pay for the rest of the time you work there. No-one is going to bring down the cost of your living expenses as a result, nor will you get an automatic payrise when times are good again. Take your own advice and think longterm..:ok: |
dear thinking clearly
this 30hrs a week you speak of dont forget to add the time you spend doing non-recorded work or on call at home for which you get no credit dont forget to add the time you spend at work which is not recorded or included in your sign on to sign off Im certain your hospitality salary was for a service only role not safety plus service most of us, the IR law makers and the public expect that crew salary will be higher to cover the safety skill set the Hudson River incident cemented this for the public in general despite the recession and cries of loss v huge profit the public and the airlines are still donating to charity theres no all stations alert meetings with all employees business101 we wont go under if current crew stay on our current conditions and our current salaries obviously we've got to give them something but they wont bargain they are dictating what we should give up to fill a bucket they control what we do at work and now they are trying to take over more control of our home life by asking us to take home less and give up more of our personal lives by working more hours businesses go under because of mismanagement from wasting money or not working smart not because it didnt get the chance to rob peter to pay paul lets not agree to get robbed to pay into a bucket |
People ARE thinking longterm when they talk about voting no. Once conditions are gone, they are gone for good. Yes you are right, we get paid "OK" right now but do you want to be paid "not OK" in the future? Vote NO! Tell your friends. |
How to save $8 million dollars in the Cabin Crew department.
1. Reduce the number of Development Managers and move these resources back into flying. Most cabin crew don't need to be micro-managed. 2. Reduce the number of Propels, thus reducing the amount of hours that need to be allocated to each CS to complete this requirement each month. One or two Propels per crew member per month is sufficient or a system where those that aren't meeting expectations or are excelling are given feedback. Feedback saying that crew are meeting the expectations of their job is redundant. 3. Roster crew more efficiently. There are crew members who consistently receive rosters between 130-135 hours and others that only receive 90-100 hours. Many flights aren't crewed until several days before and rely on AVL resources - this costs money and would be avoided if rostering was more efficient. 4. Get rid of CCOS. What is the point of having an operational support team for cabin crew? Shouldn't our direct managers be providing this type of support? People ARE thinking longterm when they talk about voting no. Once conditions are gone, they are gone for good. I accepted a job that meant I was away from home for half the month and acknowledged the fact that I would be in an environment pressurised at 6,000 to 8,000 ft. However, I see my salary as compensation for the unique lifestyle this job demands from me and the environment in which I work. I can't speak for everyone but I know I wouldn't be doing this job for a salary of $46k per year (with superannuation only being paid on the $36k base). The other $10-20k we earn is from overtime, overnight allowances, AVL days, and crew commissions. Take most of that away and it's just another below-average income job. I'm happy to negotiate my conditions to keep the company running but NOT until they reshuffle resources and really make some cost-savings before trying to pay cabin crew less. Why should any of us take a pay-cut to fund poor management decisions and pay rises for other departments and managers? := |
You said there are better paid and easier jobs in the world too.... A list would be great if you have one. Just because if there are, maybe it's worth a look. I could offer it to some of the people I fly with who are determined to groan all the time. We have to be professional here and not blame everything on the managers. I chose to work here and in this field. I have more time off work then in any job I have ever had. So, I love my job.
Like all of us, i want a fair deal. It is silly to think that Cabin Crew is the only area asked to cut back. Have you actually asked for answers to these questions?? I have and I know of several people who have been told that their contracts won't be renewed and that they are not replacing anyone who has quit. I also read the newspapers and have lots of friends in the UK. It is going to get tough here and so we need a good deal! AND we need to work with the company not against it. Otherwise, why not go get one of those easier jobs for better pay that you mentioned??? What are those job????? That I am qualified for????? hmmmmmmm. Maybe I'd better take some classes with my 10 days off a month to be prepared.:8 |
Some keen observations..
A friend of mine has just told me about a conversation they had with a manager from another department that stated several interesting points without any prompting:
1. The ratio of CCDMs to cabin crew was ridiculously high. 2. The company isn't doing as well as it should because of all the money that is being fed into V Australia - they had recently been in LA for a few months helping with the set up. 3. There have been about 6 confirmed redundancies in their department and other jobs had already been merged. 4. Cabin crew rostering isn't optimal at the moment. Some interesting points to think about, especially as they are observations coming from someone outside the cabin crew department. |
don't you love it when a company second string stooge gets on pprune pretending to be part of the team..........
alvinski go play with the other chipmonks and leave the real crew to bat on and vote no to the shameful and totally unprofessional EBA circus AT (as before yes I know it's not my battle but I'm just supporting a few good friends who deserve much more than to be treated like brain farted 15 year olds) |
alvinski what does a fair deal or a good deal look like for you ?
need to work with the company not against it they are telling us what they want to take out of our contract and not letting us have any official say into what we want to put forward as cost savings or productivity offers the surveys told them in black and white what we didnt want they still served it up to us as an option for our new contract isnt that autocratic rule ? i want discussions around my contract changes to be democratic not just a token democratic vote on autocratic changes thought out by management the management have but one mindset which is cost savings in payroll whether this is to cut jobs or to cut conditions the jobs and conditions that they are cutting are taking from the very people who make this company stand out above others for the travelling public including IT people who are involved in the guest experience as well as staff systems! |
The Reality of the impending recession
At the moment, the reality is that we currently have 127 cabin crew members more than what we need now that 5 aircraft will be taken off line and used as operational spares. Management is asking all crew who would be interested in taking annual leave, leave without pay, temporary part-time, or perhaps redeployement. No-one should sell out to what is being offered, however, we also need to think of worse case scenario. Redundancies are a reality and no matter how much the management are trying to avoid it, it will happen. I personally don't want to take a pay cut either, however, I know this much, I still want a job with Virgin Blue at the end of the day. If it meant the difference of taking a slight pay cut or loose my job, I know what I would prefer. If you had to leave, imagine how hard it would be to secure another job in this current economic environment.
I have a mortgage to pay, bills to pay, food to put on the table just like a lot of other people in the company, but unlike a number of cabin crew members, I have taken my mortgage out based on my base wage, not on my base wage plus allowances. In fact, your a fool if you over-commit yourself. The oldies who have been there like myself have less to worry about than the newies. IF they have to offer redundancies then it will be last on first off as confirmed by Mr Tanner in the EBA Roadshows, not based on performance like some DM's have been telling their crew members. I was told by some crew recently that DM's have been informing crew that the lowest performing crew members will be the first to go..... I don't think so. In a perfect world, I would love to see the company put a clause in the EBA that states if the world economy takes a turn for the better and the company starts to make money hand over fist, that we would be able to get a better remuneration from this point. Hard I know because the company are reluctant to have a clause like this, but hey, its worth trying. To all those who say that Virgin Blue will never collapse, never say never. No-one ever thought that Ansett would collapse after 63yrs of operation, and yes they were badly managed, but they collapsed when there was no impending recession or financial woes of the world. The moral of this story is that YES, I too want a better deal. I hate the idea of being paid less for more hours, as I mentioned in my last post, but if I had to choose between taking what is on offer or risk loosing my job, it would be a very hard decision to make. At the moment it is only 127 people from our department at risk, who knows what may happen in 6 mths time when we will have more of an idea of whether we will be in recession or not, but after this time the amount of excess crew could be greater. I need to read the final document to see what they offer. At the moment I really want to say NO, but I have to see what the document says. I guess it is nice to know that senior management are taking a 25-30% paycut. Anyway, that is my rant for today. Look forward to hearing all your comments on the issue. Cheers. |
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