We all want the company to thrive
 

ccguy,

127 excess crew is not a lot spread over 3 bases. The natural attrition alone would take care of this number in less than 6 months. Add to that the number of people who will move across to V and we will be back at optimal crew compliments within 3 months.

Consider how long the part-time lists are in the various bases. Several hundred long, here is an opportunity for many of those crew to get their wish and go part-time right away, at least for a month or two. I myself am seriously seeing it as a great opportunity to take a little more time off this year than just my annual leave will allow. :ok:

The sticking point with the agreement I believe isn't that it's a recession and we all need to pitch in. It's the feeling that we will never have the opportunity to negotiate good conditions with the company again. If they came to us and said "lets put together a short term agreement to save your jobs and the company over 2 years" then they'd get a different response I'm sure. But they are not saying that, they are saying "times are bad now, we can't afford this and we want to lock in much lower rates forever". But the company will experience high profitability again and crew quite rightly don't want to be left holding onto cheap conditions while the company rakes in extra profits in the good times.

clause shopping
 

I found one

Should ..(blah blah happen).. adversely affecting the profitability of Virgin Blue, the Association and Virgin Blue may review the salaries ... This review will only take place to ensure the ongoing employment of all staff.

reluctant?
maybe its only the current management who are ..reluctant
or maybe :}
or absent minded
proceed to checkout current clause 14(d)

i see your point but...
 

We have to be careful about what we negotiate away in tough times to "keep our jobs" as just like you have mentioned, times will again be good - that is the nature of market economies - what we give away now, we will never get back and i think we have given enough over the past decade. i too don't bank on my allowances, but on my base salary and it is a sad fact that our base salary is now below the average wage. should it be? hell no. our role is not only about safety - and we've all seen or been involved in some worrisome situations at times, be they medical emergencies, out of control pax, or putting our EP's into practise. for all of these reasons, along with the shift work hours, long days on our feet without any real breaks etc. we SHOULD be paid at least an average wage, if not above it. my friends and family outside of the industry can't believe how little we really get paid for what we do. on top of all of that, our role is not just important from a safety perspective, but IS pivotal in the longevity of the company. It is US, that ensures passengers ultimately want to fly with us again and for all the great deals in the world, if we upset a passenger, we have burnt them which equals lost income for the company. The higher echelons of management have no real respect for what we do, and who we are, they treat us like numbers that are disposable. Ever wondered why they say 25-30% pay cut? well what is it? 25%? 28% what? and how come it is somewhere in the range? and when exactly does it come into effect? from the next payslip after the announcement? or at the start of the next financial year? like their pay rises usually do. Richard Tanner is on a $360k package - $270 cash in hand - go look it up on the annual report. is he really worth that? honestly? is anyone??? and he has the audacity to swear at us whilst asking us for more? be careful what you are prepared to give up for the sake of thinking it will keep your job safe. i personally am sick of seeing photos of the "boys" on their junkets whilst us at the coal face have to beg for a measly 3.5% pay rise - that we have to do more work for, so not really a pay rise. it is a joke and i'll be voting no because i take pride in what i do, do it well, care about our guests, and i'm worth it.

Im not even DJ crew, but that previous post was spot on!!! I could not pass by without commenting.
Good luck guys in your negotiations. As a fellow Flight Attendant, you deserve better.

CBR_1 thank YOU!
the ultimate point
the retail is in the detail
RT negotiated a 15% increase on what was BH's annual salary :E
AD negotiated a 10% annual salary increase from 2007 to 2008 :suspect:
for 2007 to 2008 i've only received one quarter of a 3% salary increase
from jul 2007 to sep 2007 nothing since
RT has the audacity to not negotiate with us
on these figures he won't get us for a bargain unless he bargains
lets go for 15% same as RT
but we'll be fair make it over 3years instead of 1

Draft
 

What is the deal with telling us they did not have enough time to roster the latest roadshow proposals and that we have to make time to come in ourselves.
I can't even make times to see my friends/family let alone come in for this. Now I will have to come in off a day off (which i should be getting the $250 but wont) or have an 11-12 hour day (and won't be paid accordingly either).It SHOULD have been rostered, this is a total joke, everything about this new EBA is an utter joke.

DJTibby, just tell your DM that you cant make a session and organise a meeting with them instead. RW put that at the bottom of the email.
--
I too believe that a day off should be $250 and available minimum of 4 hours or overtime after your shift if it actually fits in. They are getting desperate now as I think they finally realise its going to be a hard sell to get it over the line. The rumours over whats been changed and what hasnt are rife, so the initial info sessions back in Jan have probably created more uncertainty.
Just give me a hard copy to read with a cover sheet on whats changing and whats not for those who cant be bothered reading the whole document.
Meanwhile crew including those who are on the committee are just saying vote no. I don't think I've heard anyone say vote yes. Another million wasted.

:ugh:

Personally I think they already get great value from their crew, how many companies have people happy to come to work, glad to clean a toilet, smile and every person that walks into your workplace etc...?. Cut the wage to the bare minimum and you'll only ever be able to hire people who will work to the bare minimum. I'd hate to see a great brand go under this way. The love of flying only keeps people in it for so long. Sooner or later they have to pay their bills, save for their retirement and pay a mortgage.

Cut costs where it doesn't show. Become more efficient managers, use technology to make gains. Don't skimp on your crew. That would be like skimping on seat covers. Everyone will notice the difference very quickly.

You can't direct someone to have a positive attitude, take the initiative and look after your interests. Those qualities have to be in the person first and people with those qualitites have many options in life. They will go where the money goes.

accept it at your own risk...
 

So, they hand out a sheet of paper that highlights the changes from what we currently have to what we get (as they see it). And if the document is so good why are they so desperate to get us in for another roadshow? Do they think we can't read? Do they think that as a group we won't be able to make sense of the document and so need them to do it for us? Once again, demonstrates their lack of respect for us as a group. If what is on offer is so good, could someone please tell me why they don't highlight all the things they are taking away?

1. Annual leave loading - which is $500 plus per year - so future losses of that amount less per year, but also what you have owed in annual leave from previous years but haven't been able to take no matter how hard you have tried.

2. Buffers around days off greater than one and, they have not stated what the buffer around the single day is (and apparently don't want to put it in the document) so one can only assume it is less than the current 14hrs - why not state it otherwise?

3. Freezing our allowances so that they are no longer raised to reflect changes in the cost of living. This includes the overnight allowance which has always been paid by virginblue well below the tax free threshold as set by the ATO - so the gap will just continue to widen - and once again this is determined by the ATO based on the cost of living.

4. Effectively no pay rise for 4 years by the time we get one, and this pay rise will be based (i.e. the percentage worked out on) a 2007 wage. So, a wage that has not risen in line with any changes in the cost of living - they're arguing that the cost of living will go down now as a result of the depression and probably hoping that none of us have economic degrees and that the we are also stupid but, the cost of living went UP during the Great Depression of the 1920's and many Economists' are suggesting this will again be the case. The next 2 years of bonus payments are nothing more than trying to ensure they make it look good even though it will leave us worse off in the long run. My vote is not for sale!

5. By freezing our allowances, rather than indexing as is the case now (and has always been the case) they are putting us even further behind the 8 ball. We will be earning a 2007 wage, paying 2009, 2010, 2011 etc. prices and so the money we're earning we will be having to pay more out of effectively to live. For the next 3 years no adjustement will be made to balance out the increase in value of our expenses.

6. By increasing our hourly max. you will notice a decrease in your over nights - easier to get crew back to home port - especially as they now have an extra 5 hours per month to toy with.

7. Our min. rest is now 12 hours at home port, not 15. By making it a bid option, the default setting is 12. The pilots have it the other way around - they still get default of 15 but can bid for 12.

8. As for available days, since when is 18 hours max. the end of the never ending day? And another thing, the available rate stays the same for the life of the document. So, if they do in fact call you out on an available in 2 years from now (after we finally get a pay rise), you may in fact end up being paid less than your standard hourly rate at the time.

9. Here is the most important thing...if we sign this, we are signing these changes in forever. WE WILL NEVER GET THEM BACK. Did they give us anything back in this one? We will send a message that says "you can get away with this and we will let you" so next time we sit at the table they will know just how pliable we really are. Maybe they will just settle for bonus payments for every year in the next year, and no pay rise? If we were happy with it for 2 years, why not try for every year next time? Maybe they'll try and take away our allowances all together? If we didn't mind them freezing them this time, would we care if they took them away?
We will be instrumental in signing away all of those rights that protected our health, our safety and our sanity that colleagues before us, fought for. Some may call them old-boilers but maybe that is just because they were tough and stood their ground. Let's make sure we do this career proud and protect it from those that want to turn it into a transient job. They say that is what it is now but how many crew do you know that have been here since it's early days? It isn't as transient as they would like us to believe. Let's keep it real and not buy into their new round of propaganda!

Well said CBR_1..

it's a disgrace!

They are beginning to show signs of desperation - moreso than the 'Raj Show' last time (were we buying discounted carpets or voting on our future?).

Wear them down, slowly but surely. Most wont realise, but success is already being realised through their desperate attempts to brainwash.

They see cabin crew as pliable ditz'.

They don't realise that cabin crew live their lives observing human behaviour, and are GENERALLY hard to 'trick'...

They're no different to a drunk who's just had open heart surgery yesterday trying to board a Darwin... They can play it down all they like, but we will catch em before the door closes!

lets get the message out!
 

This seems to be the only safe place to voice any opinion that does not tow the company line. We need to get as many crew as we can on to this site - if only so that they can read a differing point of view before they cast their vote. I'm beginning to understand that most crew just don't realise the impact signing this document will have on them long term. Sure there are some out there that won't be here long term and so don't care, they just want their $2500 before they run BUT, many others do want to stick around.
The eba guys i think are doing the best they can, but they are only 6 (is it 5?whatever, not many) people and can't talk to everybody and give them all the facts. Plus, they are in a tricky place. I'm sure they can only say so much. They don't have the union on their side as days of old. If people truly want to vote yes, so be it, i will live with it, that is their choice and hopefully they have good reason, but lets make sure bfore the time comes for voting we have given our fellow crew the chance to see a different point of view to the one they gave us in the roadshows. We still live in a democratic country afterall....shouldn't both sides get a true voice? :oh:

Draft is out on the intranet if you care to read it. I think the increases would be great if we kept the 140 hours p/m. To increase to 140 hours p/28 days is a big ask. The overtime will be difficult to achieve and they will definitely being needing alot less of us if this gets through. It looks like at least 10% increase in productivity with standard pay rises. Overtime will be all but dead as they roster everyone to 140 hours before they let people go to OT. Can anyone remember the last time they got drafted? OT will be the same.
So if you think that they are over staffed now they will be well and truly over staffed if this gets up.
The company wants performance based redundancy. Who determines whose performance?

What increases?

For what I can see (I have both the current and proposed eba in front of me right now), you are actually losing money, LOTS OF IT!

Your take home if on the current EBA you are CC2 will be approximately $1350-$1400 per fortnight after tax.

You will have LESS overnights, as they can work you longer days.

You WILL be working 140 hours in 28 days, EVERY MONTH!

You WILL NOT be working 120-125 hours in 31 days as you currently do.

This works out to be approximately 35hours EXTRA PRODUCTIVITY they will get out of you EACH MONTH, not just the 15hours, but up to 3 days as well?

This means you will work close to an extra 9hours per week, possibly with NO OVERTIME.

Look at your roster right now. Throw in another 4 sectors this week. Perhaps the only spot you can fit them in is on your AVL day? You won't get paid for it though!

Say HELLO to Darwin and Perth RETURNS out of Brisbane.

Say goodbye to overnights.

LOOK AT CC level 1, 2, and 3.

You are overstaffed as it is! With the drastic increase in productivity at NO COST, you are going to be flooded with HUNDREDS of EXCESS CABIN CREW.

Very easy to get rid of you! THE COMPANY DOES NOT LOVE YOU!? And look, you're replacements are SO CHEAP! And at that rate, theyre bound not to hang around long enough to become as expensive as you ever were!

GET REAL VIRGIN BLUE!

It's time to kick them where it hurts. Protected industrial action doesn't have to ground the airline, but it sure can embarrass such a self concious egomaniac management into behaving like 'grown ups' and treating their staff in a manner they would like to be treated themselves.

PS, your $2500 is taxed! Work it out, doesnt sound so much when you do the maths.

If this EBA is voted up cabin crew and those on wet lease arrangements will/can be rostered up to 12 hours with 10 hours minimum rest on layovers. Remember people how tired we all are after a 9.45 schedule with minimum rest.:eek:

This proposal alone is enough to get a NO vote from me.

I agree.

The maximum hours in a 28 day roster should be lowered at least to 130 per roster. 140 (if they ever roster us that high) is too much!

In addition overtime should kick in earlier, and what about the allowances not increasing for four years!?!

What's the story with international visas upon arrival needing to be paid for by the crew? This is written in the proposal. Does anyone know what this means? Is it a once yearly payment for example? Which countries?

Those who are members of the F.A.A.A., write in as requested to voice any concerns, and fill in the company's survey on the intranet too. Remember this is NOT the final document we're going to be voting on, things in it can be changed.

where is the FAAA?
 

Hey can someone please tell me where our FAAA delegates are? How come they haven't been out and about in the crew rooms? I'm not having a go necessarily but the only people i've seen in the crew room are the committee members. I pay my dues to the FAAA, just wondering why they can't be in the crew rooms, they are employees and it is law that the company can't prevent the existence of delegates? Do the delegates get paid by the FAAA to be delegates? Shouldn't they be making themselves more available. Or at least letting us know what this proposed doc. is really going to cost us? I did a survey for them months ago (and previously after the last eba got voted down 2 yrs ago), they already know what i wished for in an EBA...why do i now have to do it again??? Why don't they just send out some facts and figures about the draft doc. Why don't they spell out to us what is and isn't there, and what it means for us long term? We just keep getting emails telling us the same old stuff, that the company then refutes. Come on FAAA give us something now! No more surveys, I am sick of them. Show me the money! Or at the very least, show me i'm not paying my dues for nothing...:{

I never said there was any real pay rises. The pay rises are CPI rises with a 10% increase in productivity.

AVL days are staying though so you could make money once all your friends have been made redundant.

If we vote no the status quo remains for a little longer, if you vote yes then perhaps you will be one of those overstaffed CC who will lose their job.

In a sensible voice go and tell your DM or BM what you do and dont like about the draft. Its not to late for the company to change it again. Dont blow smoke up their a$$ and tell them that you think its great.

The FAAA isnt involved in the process they are merely spectators. Unless VB Management have a quick change of mind which I doubt, they will not be involving the FAAA unless they have to.

Thanks Mods

The committee members are rostered to be in the crew rooms, the delegates aren't.

Mostly what is and isn't there is in black and white in the offer. Most of us have done our sums and our budget on what life would look like working under the offer on the table. Less home time for less increases. 2 cash stimulus bonuses to supposedly see us through the tough times, yet if the company truly wants to save money, how can it afford to pay every cabin crew member $2500 up front instead of paying a % Increase spread out over time? Pay increases are more responsible in an economic crisis because the company would only have to pay a true proportion of the cash bonuses to part timers and those leaving not $2500 x 1500 in one big lump sum on one day.

when we did those surveys that was when we were putting forward what we wanted negotiated, but the company decided not to negotiate. now theres a document out they want us to all think about and speak up on what should be in and what should be out or what should be changed.

I'm all for the FAAA
 

The thing is, the company is still not negotiating. Until Labour's new Fair Work Rules kick in - hopefully July 1 - and it then becomes a legal option again for the FAAA to be involved, what crew need to know is the impact of the proposed doc. I know it, and you know it Shoppingcart, we've done the figures but what i'm hearing in the crew rooms is that most crew don't. What i'm hearing in the crew rooms is still about what is happening with the FAAA, why aren't they on board? Many crew don't realise the FAAA don't have a choice to be there. What i meant in my last post is more about what the FAAA could be doing in the mean time, to educate those crew that unlike us, don't really understand the process. Don't forget that for many crew this is their first time to vote for something like this. I have encouraged many new crew to join the FAAA but, now i would like to see some action - even if it just emailing members with a point by point break down of the doc. Not for me, but for those that are new to this.

Why make them look bad
 

You are really a little bit bitter ,arn't you. Everybody has a job to do, including our managers. We wanted them to cut their pay and they have. RT told us his pay has been reduced by over $70k!!!. as he earns the least of the seniot team, the others must have taken a bigger cut. Give them some credit for doing what they do!!!! Life is to short to keep looking for what is wrong. I am looking at the positives and there are many. I will vote yes......I hope some of you grump ones think more clearly about this as well. Klarity

Let us negotiate our work (life) rules. please.
 

Klarity- your name doesn't happen to be richard does it?

I have been reading this post since it started, and "bitter" is not a word that comes to mind to describe those who write here. Almost everyone has a valid point to make. I for one, have been with DJ for a long, long (long) time and still love the company 100%, and also plan on being here a lot longer.

In saying that, I am not stupid- Given the current economic crisis we all need to pull together and do our part to keep the company afloat and profitable. I am also however educated and don't believe that we (cc) should be completely shafted for the next three years with this EBA draft. We all know this EBA is trying to be pushed through before the industrial laws change, and please, correct me if I'm wrong on that. But Klarity is right on one thing- life is too short, so lets not work ourselves to the bone to not enjoy it.

No No No!
 

My vote will be no. EBA_Babylon - I am like you....LOVE VB & LOVE working for them but there is far too much to lose under the proposed document & once it's gone we will never get it back. There are *some* positive things about the new EBA but far too many negatives for it to get a yes vote from me in it's current form.

I'll list a few of the things that really jumped out at me when reading the new document.

- Check out the clause re Managing Performance!! Our rights are GONE when it comes to disciplinary action in the new document!! Compare the old to the new. A massive chunk is missing - far too long to list it all here but go to clause 23 in the current EBA - C to G are gone as is L!

- Cancelling accommodation has gone from 36hrs to 72hrs & nothing to say anymore about cancelling on notification of flying! No getting called on AVL & cancelling accom on the spot & getting an extra bit of cash to cover your expenses when you're not staying in company provided accommodation!

- 12 hour duty times for international crews. In the not too distant future all crew will apparentally be doing online training which will make us all available for the international sectors. Then ALL crew will be able to work 12 hr duties as long a there is an international sector. Theoretically we could do a DPS or WLG return followed by another sector or 2 or 3! Have you noticed that there is no provision for extra rest for crew that will be working 12 hours? Not before, during or after a 12 hr duty!! We could do a trip comprising of 4 days of 12hr duties with only 10hrs rest in between each day!! Think of how exhausted you are now when you do 4 sector days followed by min rest! Apparentally we will only be entitled to ONE 20 min rest break during a 12 hr duty too!!

- Did you notice that the clause regarding passports & visa's has been changed. Clause 5.3 now says" You are required to hold a current passport. There may be times you are required to obtain certain visas in order to perform your duties. You will be responsible for the costs associated with these documents" Our current EBA says that VB will be responsible for those costs! I think its ok to pay for our own passports - but VISAS? Come ON!! It's a cost associated with those flights being crewed and therefor should be paid for by the company!

- As mentioned before nothing is in the EBA about buffers around days off - in particular single days off!!! This is scary! Imagine finishing a trip late, having 1 day off and then starting another trip early!

Think carefully before you vote YES. I realise that we are in tough financial times and am willing to make some concessions to help get us through & keep myself & others in a job. BUT there is a hell of a lot to lose by voting yes. We have a lot to gain by voting NO - the biggest being that we would be able to NEGOTIATE in the true sense of the word.

Klaffe.. *ahem* Klarity... all well and good at youre age. What about those of us trying to start out? If the employer of your kids demanded 30% more for less, you'd be a bit more defensive.

Not all of us do this because the prospect of retirement frightens us!

Hi,
I use to work for DJ, and i enjoyed the time i was there.

The choice of the 'EBA team' astounded me, as there was only one person who I knew of that had qualified negotiation skills, with a background.
That was the first mistake made in my opinion.

Has anyone checked against whats being proposed with the CASA CARS and CAOs.

Duty time etc which Casa hold standard are in there, of course dispensation can be sought by DJ for their needs.

I have helped negotiate 2 ebas at DJ and hearing all this talk on here it seems that some people are not up for change, let alone open to ideas.

I am not saying that DJ are saints in this process... like any business you need to make money, hold onto money... and inturn the crew need to realise that the market that you work in is a little different when all we had was legacy airlines. Standards need to be kept, held high. Some things can be thrown out.

Give and take is important, and i do hope that fundamentals of flying both pilot and crew are all listed in the CASA regs.... go have a read

good luck!

Got the email today about the further changes just announced. Good to see they had listened to us, as two of my major concerns in my surveys have been resolved for the better. The other concerns (with pay increases too late for example) are obviously a sign of the times and are not up for negotiation which is a shame.

I'm still not happy regarding the overtime over 140. It just sounds unrealistic to acheive. Although 10 days off extra a year sounds good, I'd rather see a maximum of 130 in 28 days for example.

But something esle I cannot get over is the leave loading. When incorporated into our DTA, it will never increase. Whereas leave loading is currently given on percentage of salary and given when on leave, which increases when the salary increases. This is important, as our base salary in a couple of years will be $50,000 for cabin crew and $58,000 for cabin supervisors - but DTA of $6800 per year will always remain the same. Also the fact leave loading of 11% is handy to receive when taking leave. :sad:

Doesn't it sound great that we are getting an extra 10 days off a year? Think about it. We actually have to work a whole extra 140 hours for us to get those "extra" days off! ;)

Yep I thought about those extra days off.

Wont that mean we'll have to cram the extra work hours into less working days and we will be sleeping on those extra days off. :bored:

The document is slowly getting there and the constant changes mean that management realise its going to go down again if they arent careful.
However lets discuss how far away they are.
Part timers and potential part timers will be more infavour so lets say 10%
Maternity Leave those on, those about to go, those thinking of 10%
Management type CC and CS, trainers and others on secondment internally 5%
Those who voted yes last time 7%
So thats about 32%. Then you include some nervous nellies who are worried about the airlines bottom line, those who are over the EBA, those leaving in the next 6 months, those who have changed there mind and the company can't be far away from succeding.
This thing needs to be vote through so people can get on with the job. Its got to be having a determental effect on the guest satisfaction with CC talking about it all the time. Make the changes recommended to you by the CC and FAAA, bite the bullet and reward people properly for a great job.
In return you will get your 28 day roster which is neither here nor there, you will get the new CC levels which once again dont effect us, and you will keep pay rises under control.
These last three things are what management really want and the rest is window dressing.
Do you want a yes or another no? The choice is yours!

Top 3 changes??
 

I agree WB-It needs to be settled on the principle of give a little, take a little.

Fellow cc, what would be your top 3 [realistic] changes to the current draft to get (not buy) your YES vote? in short?

Of course the fine print matters too, but it would be interesting to hear the top 3 points.

Company proposal is out
 

So, the final document is "out"... I think anyone in thier right mind who actually reads the document will realise it's much to cc detriment if we vote yes. :{
Good to see the FAAA's quick response:

To: All Virgin Blue Cabin Crew
Virgin Blue Management has published its Final Proposal for your consideration.
It is regrettable that during ‘document drafting’ meetings, Virgin Blue Management chose not to consider any of the suggested changes put forward by your Association, as representativefor its Members. Changes such as - existing workable clauses remain as is, adjustments made to some clauses where issues have arisen, backpay to 1 September 2007 in exchangefor current practice of rostering higher than 125hrs generally, fair and reasonable pay increases throughout the next Agreement term.
Members are asking what the Association’s view is regarding the Document as proposed:
Clause Reference - Reduced Conditions
1.6 No Extra Claims - does not clearly protect Cabin Crew against Virgin Blue making other extra
claims against Crew during the term
1.7 Consultation - does not empower the solutions or improvements concluded by Cabin Crew committee members to be implemented
1.8 Scheduled Duty - does not protect Cabin Crew from continual displacement i.e. reduces roster stability
2.1.3 Part Time - no new positions at half full time hours, different resource group affecting roster and annual leave bids, 5hrs more overtime obligation per roster than full timer, no opportunity for double time above max hours, hourly rate paid only whereas full timer receives double time after max hours, no prorata of allowances or leave entitlements for 80hrs forced max.
2.2 Probation - never ending probation when ill
2.3 Duties - no protection against dismissal regarding manual compliance and checks
2.4 Contact - Crew would be required to be contactable outside of working hours
2.6 Redundancy - no protection or transparent fair process
2.9 Stand Down - no consultation with the Association or other agreed independent body
3.1 Salary - proposed CS2 rate is lower than current negotiated CS2 rate in current Agreement. productivity payments are single date payments instead of proportionately rewarding those Crew who, throughout each year, actually deliver the productivity
3.2 Allowances - no increase to Misc Exp allowance since 1 Sep 07 (5yrs without increase), less than 1% increase to Grooming/Uniform allowance since 1 Sep 07
reduced annual leave loading currently paid at 11.6667% on base salary
and paid at a lower tax rate is said to be included in a flat payment with
DTA:
CS1 $43368÷52wks x 6wks x 11.6667%=$538.80+$6435.10 = $7018,90 -
$7000 = $18.90 less and this is based on salaries as at 1 Sep 2007
Acting CS currently calculated on base salaries, now a flat payment not
increasing over the term. No Check & Trainer allowance
no protection for minimum number of sectors for buddy trainers
4.1.2 Taking Annual - no fair or transparent system for distribution of annual leave
Leave
4.2.4 Proof of Absence - medical certificates not supplied within 7 days result in $0 pay which is a serious concern given that regular sick leave audits are conducted where Crew are requested to re-supply replicas of previously submitted medical
certificates
4.2.6 Mid Duty Illness - more than 5hrs should be 0 leave accrual deduction and 5hrs or less should be half day leave accrual deduction
4.6.1 Parental Leave - Cabin Crew who become Fathers are no longer entitled to take 2 weeks paid paternity leave surrounding the birth of their child, as the document prevails over the current policy
5.3 Passports - reduction of full reimbursement of renewal costs
6.5 Overtime - reduction in payment of daily overtime as not paid until after 10hrs and not paid if working over max hours
6.2 Hours of work - greater hours daily, per roster and per year are a long term gain to Virgin Blue, yet the increased hours are paid as 2 x one off payments on 2 dates,
not necessarily paid to those who will actually work the additional hours.
6.8 Available Days - CS Available Day rate less than 2012 hourly rate
no fair call out order for available days or part timers on optional days
Outstanding Claims Preface: “Terms and conditions which promote productivity without overlooked compromising safety”, yet Buffers around all days off are removed, Meal Breaks are not guaranteed within a now longer proposed daily duty and despite copious reporting of the need for BOC/Red Eye provisions i.e. no
second sector, adequate rest following, cap number per roster.
The Association does not endorse this Proposal.
We understand that some Managers are stating to Crew that there is only one voting choicewhich is acceptable. All Cabin Crew should be assured that they have the right to consider the proposal and cast a democratic vote. Any specific instructions on a desired voting outcome should be ignored and the proposal considered on its own merits, not on what potentially could or could not happen after the vote. Any duress experienced should be reported to the appropriate body or to your Association.

I can't see this getting up CC are giving up too much which will never be returned. :{
You think you might be helping out the company short term just like the board and management have but as soon as the good times come back they will be the first to pat themselves on the back with a big pay rise. Do you think you will see any of that?:{
This document is not an agreement, consultation with CC has been token at best (just listen to those who supposedly were consulted with), this is yet another group of managers dictating to staff what they want, surveys designed to mislead, roadshows where there was only one point of view, shall I go on.
VB CC Managers are ticking the boxes making sure it all looks llike they have been doing the "right" things. :ugh:
The only option is to send them packing with another no vote. :ok:
Perhaps then we might actually be heard.

So what you are suggesting lizzy is throw away all our entitlements in the short term and sacrifice any life we have for the company's best interests.
I thought we lived in a democracy where our voice could be heard?
We feel that the company has rail roaded us and is using the GEC to further their cause.
The company which is in such dire straights that upon signing this document will hand over close to $4,000,000 dollars on the 1st of July.
You are kidding if you think that this document will make or break VBA. Go back to your office and worry about your own job. No need to come here and pretend that you are one of us.
:=

my partner raised another issue.... WHERE in the document does it specify that you will take your days off in your home base? What is stopping them do what Jetstar do/did and have you take your days off in another city.

I stand to be corrected, but we both looked over it, and cant find it. If it does not specifically state that you WILL be rostered your days off in your HOME base, then they CAN do it.

lizzydizzy, the economic crisis is already showing signs of recovery. Virgin Blue is doing very very well - and would have shown more black ink had it not been for the perpetual stuffups by godfrey and his high fiving friends in head office. Despite their (acknowledged by many) 'stuff ups' (cant swear on here), they are trying to get cabin crew to pick up the slack. In the meantime, load factors show signs that we are winning QF group pax over (increasing our market share), yield is lower at the moment so higher load factors than QF means Virgin is probably doing better.

THE COMPANY WILL NOT GO BROKE IF YOU VOTE NO TO THIS AGREEMENT

The company want to get this through before july when they would be forced to include the FAAA in their discussions. They are DESPERATE, trying dirty tactics. They know that once the FAAA are involved, they WILL NOT get you as cheap.

Hey Ozangel

I'm in total agreeance with your last post and have no intention of supporting the propsal.

But as for DDO's in home base - it's in the definitions.

"Designated Day Off means a rostered calendar day free of duty at Home Base"

LizzyDizzy - not too sure what the Cleo's have been saying, but glancing at Friday's Australian whilst getting call-bells, I noticed an article stating that the recession in Australia was showing signs that it would be over in months - unlike the proposed document that would still be in place in 3 years!

I reviewed the entire agreement for my other half and a few good Virgin friends.

Certainly it has 'improved' slightly but the prescriptions and lack thereof in some sections are definately red flags for anyone with half a brain.

Bottom line is that you are giving up rights for future negotiations, appellant rights in disputes and even more concerning is that the company becomes the superior entity in determining all of those very broadly mentioned disruption/economic viability factors etc etc., All of these are real losses for what is essentially a lower hourly rate of pay* that is not even indexed to CPI. (*based on the pay at 28 at 140 ) Plus the aggregating of sundry allowances also means that tax options are reduced. Similarly, the descriptions in the EBA also close off avenues for tax decuctions - telephone expenses is one such example.

The redundancy clauses are scary - and the connotations attached to areas such as 'performance monitoring etc' are draconian to say the least.

Areas of the document are written in first person, other areas in third person. Some clauses are far from prescriptive and in terms of contact obligations, quite contradictory. There is no doubt that the document has not had any professional due diligence processes applied .

Further, there is so much of the EBA that is effected by the cascading 'work rules'.

These 'rules' are the things that are interpretative practices that company, in the absence of a collective representative (ie such as a union), has the final say. Put simply the company negotiates with itself and you can bet the outcome will be 'screw the crew.'

As for the warnings of "there is only one way to vote" etc stupidly parrotted by some Mangers and even more foolishly believed by inarticulate and immature crew ...................I suggest a reality check.

VB won't go down - even with V bleeding cash - but remember that this agreement DOES give the company the ability to contract, redploy and reduce VB domestic crew pay and conditions if one of the related businesses takes a hit. (So if a VB investment such as V, pacBlue or dare I say a wrong punt with the forex markets or locking in a fuel hedge too late in game - is stuffed up and creates a loss ...the EBA has scope for the DJ crew to take the hit. You can be absolutely g'teed that the Exec contracts won't carry this risk)

The other consideration not covered is that with B, C, & D pay scale crew - and the open door for casual crew, INCLUDING crew from other countries, the company has an open door to 'performance manage' the higher paid crew out and slot the cheaper ones in. The agreement has no protection mechnanisms that other airlines have such as limits of the ratio between overseas crew to local crew and the number of casuals that can be engaged. (Also read VB's wish list submissions to the Fed govts aviation green paper and you can see the huge risk to current crew if this agreement was to get up.)

As I said before I'm up front for another airline but I am very concerned for my partner and her friends. Our household has suffered from a month's leave without pay, and several months part time. For that matter it is almost three months since my polite and professional letter to "email me anytime Brett Godfrey" still remains unanswered - despite his promise to reply. I guess he does not like answering the hard questions.

IR is a partnership - sure the BLF style days of unions vs the management are (or should be) things of the past, however anyone signing up to this agreement is either very inexperienced or does not understand that the $2,500 sign on payment is less than the pay adjustments you are already owed and entitled to.

I would strongly suggest voting NO - and then formally requesting your union to properly represent you in professional responsible, transparent negotiations.

By the way, VB cannot get the AIRC to overule you vote and force the agreement upon you as stupidly proclaimed by one highly overpaid (and overrated) small 'm' - manager.

If you are going have an EBA then get a real one that is fair and gives the business a chance at getting back to what is was and what it should - a really profitable excellent LCC.

Good Luck with it all

AT

My number one reason for voting no/Some simple sums
 

Quote:

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In case you were all too busy ready cleo in the back galley and ignoring the call bell in the asile that is the real world

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lizzydizzy,
Only on crew rest honey. And perhaps it is you who should stop reading Cleo as its aisle, not asile. That is all. :)

V Australia will be making money sooner than expected down the track, and load factors are surprisingly usually very high in business class and freight is going really well. Heard full business class + current frieght agreement = breakeven per flight.

Remember, Virgin Blue will come ahead around 2 million in savings due to new crew starting off on lower base salaries alone. Although they will accrue to 5th year salary conditions after 4 years service, there will always be new crew hence cheaper base salary crew. Forever.

skyshow
if there is already a massive surplus of crew as evidenced by the leave without pay and part time allocations........- and V continues to 'release CC back to DJ domestic ops....
......and as you state - VB is going to 'make' a saving of 2 million with new crew......
........who gets the flick to make way for these new crew?

suggest you seriously rethink the logic and get a real EBA

AT

airtags

What do you mean that V is sending crew to DJ ops? V will be taking 50 crew from VB in transfers from domestic to international this year (V actully need over 100). External recruitment for V is happening too for sure (my friend is a blue star referee and is one of them).

And as for the new crew on less salaries to begin with, no one will be effected by it in the way you described - this is only for when they hire again (obviously not even this year at least).

With more international flying for VB - DPS, NAN, WLG overnights etc... (which was expected to break even but already making a profit), there is more utilisation of aircraft during these tough times, with another one or two destinations to be announced soon, hence the need for more flying then anticipated. Yes there is a surplus of crew, but as we're told, the impact is much more minimal then first thought.

And as for trying to get a real EBA.... We're trying.

vote yes or else.... or else what?
 

I'm surprised in your lack of confidence in our airline.

If you are infact vb crew lizzydizzy, perhaps on a yes vote you will be one of the first of our surplus crew ousted for having such a poor attitude- which quite possibly is reflected in one's propel, one's lack of acknowledging CICS by the due date, or high sick leave with a trend on weekends? See there's grounds for employment review right there.

You can still be loyal crew without selling out to this insulting EBA. We've seen the company through tough times, and we'll see them through again, yet bullying/buying a yes vote simply won't work.

But thanks for your "suggestion" all the same....and good luck in trying to get that annual leave... :hmm: