Thanks for your reassuring post Ottergirl.

That is what I had heard but people keep on mentioning different figures. I think they need to be seen to be doing what they said they would do and that is only to transfer work as we shrink and not before and then I hope it will be OK.

I don't remember being asked about the hat with this uniform but I do remember that we stopped wearing it with the last one and that really was an uncomfortable thing.

I don't really want to wear the hat because I love the hat, it is more that I think we should all look the same and making some look different is divisive for all. It should either be all with the hat or all without the hat.

It is, more, also about how it affects me inside, I feel like I am an unwanted old raincoat that you keep in the wardrobe in case it's rainy but you never actually want to wear it anymore!

Anyway, as I said before, it really is just an emotion and pales into insignificance compared to everything else that is going on.

I very much doubt that M/F are not getting routes that have more than a single service because the WW crew will turn on them. What a horrid assumption!

Maybe it is just due to the fact that WW crew need two nights at some of these destinations, as do the pilots but that M/F don't and that would add to confusion for the ground staff, having two sets of crew operating with different slip patterns. It may well be confusing for scheduling also.

I heard that M/F crew and WW crew got on fine in Hong Kong in the bar recently and a M/F CSM posted how helpful the NRT crew were to his positioning HND crew on their way to Tokyo, explaining the service to them all.

Trouble is with forums is that sometimes people guess why thing are but get it wrong.

The HKG was in extremis Betty, and if BA wanted MF to mix downroute there are plenty of JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, MIA, JNB, DFW, IAH, EWR services to put them on. I know you are EF but different slip requirements don't faze the ground staff at outstations on long haul. Many of the aforementioned routes are only a single nightstop, or have flight crew slipping for two nights and cabin crew for one, or crews changing over downroute - even cabin crew switching between crews and flights! There's a reason MF are planned to be on their own downroute for the time being and a glance at the previous Daily Mail links illustrates why. It's a tiny minority granted, but why take the risk for the time being? BA are hoping for the best but planning for the worst.

PS One of the problems with the HKG mixed slip was the availability of hotel rooms in HKG as all the ex-pats had fled there from Tokyo. When the slip moved to ICN, with better hotel availability, the MF crew went to a different hotel.

Betty Girl

You appear to have forgotten about Project Columbus which was uncovered before any cost cutting was even mentioned.

It was always BA's intention to introduce a cheaper workforce in this fashion, I'm amazed that you still blame anyone other than your employer for it's introduction.

As for wearing a hat, i'm sure M/F would welcome you with open arms.

Well all those flights you mention are back to back trips, and WW are productive when doing these, apart from LAX and SFO which are again two nighters for WW and would be one night for M/F.

It could be for many reasons but it's always best not to guess and then post it as fact, don't you think!

The vast majority of crew are nice people and even the most staunch Bassa mentalists don't actually blame the Mixed Fleet crew for all this.

They do bizarrely blame people like you if you are a VCC and if you are a pilot they tar you all with the same brush unfortunately and they do blame people like me who worked; but most strikers and other crew don't actually blame M/F crew, they are just pawns in all of this and I see M/F and other crew chatting on the bus all the time nowadays.

Trouble is that some of you enjoy peddling all these nasty stories about a very few misguided crew and try to tar all crew in the same way, on here and other forums, that Bassa try and tar all pilots; and being supposedly intelligent people it's a great shame and you shouldn't lower yourselves to that level.

I'm afraid in this case its true. I heard it direct from the mouth of someone very very involved in the setting up of mixed fleet. Partly as a result of several nasty incidents when non strikers arrived in hotels during the strike last year.

It will obviously change but its a pretty clear pattern so far. HKG was in extremis, and the MF crew stayed in separate hotels, as they did in ICN. That said the WW crews were very good with them.

Only JFK, ORD and EWR in the aforementioned examples ae back to back trips. The rest attract a variety of box or destination payments. JNB is a prime example of where Mixed Fleet could be utilised as it could legally be operated as a single night slip, which is exactly what Virgin do with similar timings. I have heard similar justification as Hotel Mode as to why the two fleets are segregated. I would also speculate that offering two different service levels on a specific route might cause commercial issues. Mixed Fleet are consistently scoring double digit increases in customer satisfaction in the surveys on the long haul routes they take over.

Hand Solo where have you got your information from as it is contrary to the brief all CSDs/CSMs have been given. We actually have problems with 3 routes in particular ie Prague Mauritious and Las Vegas which are operated by MF. Great efforts have to be put into those 3 routes. There has certainly been no double digit increases on any route. YVR, SIN and HKG being the best performers

MRU has always been a demanding route and LAS was expected to be, so no surprises there. I have confidence in the source of my info on the customer surveys and their breakdown.

Striking and balloting hasn't damaged BA at all
 

British Airways April 2011 RPK's up 33.2% and cargo Tonne Km's up 28.5% year on year with Apr 2010. All Iberia could manage was 9.6% and minus 5% respectively.

remind me again.. what is BASSA's strategy to bring BA to it's knees, cos whatever it is, it ain't working, indeed quite the opposite! Keep up the great work Duncan :D

Blueupgood I totally agree. An excellent set of results in the present climate and clearly shows IAG has a strong future. I am however very concerned at the latest turn on the Industrial front for cabin crew with Bassa holding a meeting next thursday and the decision whether to strike or allow members to vote on acceptance will be made by a show of hands. In this day and age they should be able to organise an online vote so all the members can have a vote rather than several hundred people who are able to get to the vote. 2011 and people deciding issues with terrible consequences by a show of hands.:*

Hand solo we as a Company need to concentrate now on consistancy. As you know the bonus targets for everyone across the airline were set this morning and the GPM score for willing to recommend along side ready to go and 2 of the main factors. We in IFCE are now concentrating on consistancy as nobody will trigger the bonus if we do not get consistancy. Trying to create inter fleet rivalry is not helpful.

It's not a matter of creating inter-fleet rivalry Prism, it's about getting legacy crew to raise their game. As you said, the bonus targets now require consistency, something which has been lacking in cabin service for a decade. We've all experienced; when legacy crew are good they are unbeatable, but you just don't know if you're going to get a good crew or a bad one any given flight. Mixed Fleet are scoring consistently higher. This should not come as a surprise as Qantas experienced the very same when they opened their London base. Nor should that fact detract from the efforts and merits of the good legacy crew. However the consistency issues on board the aircraft are down to the crew on the day, and that may be partly due to weak (or zero) performance management by IFCE. It will be the crew dragging down legacy fleets scores which will need to be addressed this coming year.

Hand solo I have no idea what figures you are looking at but reviewing the figures we have in the office this is not true at all. we dont compare actual fleets. Infact almost everything on the B777 is low if operated on G-MIS aircraft. The main differences being the massiive improvement figures on routes operated by the B777-300. The B777-300 figures show great results and the routes they have been flying on are primarily DEL, DXB and ORD.You seem to have a problem with established fleets and can not accept the professionalism of crew who have completed a great length of service for BA. We in ifce identify that we now need consistancy. Yes we have some flights on MF going with 15/16 crew on a B777 but that wont be maintained once we resume flights to Haneda and hopefully Triploi. We have great professional crew on all fleets. We are now recruiting MF to all degrees of experiance . We have new entrants of 18 years who are doing great and we have brand new entrants of 58 who are equally doing a great job. Consistancy is what is needed now and those wanting competition need to rethink their points of view as they have a problem. The figures we have produced are not interfleet but by route/region and aircraft type. We are running a Company here that is at a turning point and we are going forward not playing juvinile games of trying to play people off against each other. All of us now depend on all our crew performing well and getting the flights away on time for our bonuses and overall customer service levels are up and will probably be shown to be in this quarters results out today.

Not true. Had a chat with a BA system developer the other day. It's a technical issue with certain systems, causing problems because of the different ranks and rules structures of Mixed Fleet.

Do you know this is history repeating itself all over again just like Midfleet when it was being ended. I just ventured onto the ESS site where someone has actually posted about how they dont want MF to be integrated now as they dont want them getting to Worldwide before them. I really give up.

Hand Solo,

You are very wrong about the Customer Survey Scores.

WW score consistently high scores and are available for YOU to read in the comms room, next to the coffee shop. 92% customer satisfaction is the current score on display.

Mixed Fleets scores have been taken down but were not as high.

E/F scores are on show next to the E/F managers, who sit next to Flight Crew admin desks and are there for you to see. They are 75% and going up.

The difference in the sets of scores is because they are collected differently. WW and I believe M/F long-haul flights are collected by the CSD or CSM giving out surveys; E/F and I believe M/F short-haul flights are done by email to passengers some time after their flight.

The in-flight method collects more results and the scores are higher. The passengers are more inclined to respond and they have plenty of time during the flight to complete the survey.
The email version has less chance of being influenced, but the forms are completed later and many passengers don't respond, leaving a result that is a mix of the dissatisfied and the very satisfied and those in between not bothering to even open the email. It also has the added problem that passengers may have travelled on up to four BA flights on their way to and from their holiday and so therefore the results are not so specific.

As you can see this makes it almost impossible to compare the three fleets and I have been told that BA are not doing so. M/F flights are also going out with 3 or 4 extra crew or VCCs on them and I have been specifically concerned that this could affect their scores and I went and asked today if BA would be comparing results.

We as fleets are trying to beat our own scores and improve on them and they are ALL up at the moment on ALL fleets.

So please don't peddle your nasty prejudices on here. If you take the time to visit some other airline websites where our Executive Club passenger post you will be able to see exactly what our customers are thinking, rather than guessing using your prejudiced feelings about WW and E/F crew, who are predominantly very professional, experienced and caring towards our passengers.

Judd,
BA legacy crew, as you call it, are paid in a similar way down-route to you but get less days off!!. The only difference is that for long duties, overtime or a box payment is made on top of our monthly salary. The longer the flight the higher the box number is ie box 1,2,3 or 4 and the bigger the payment. Most flights don't have box payments, they are only usually on flights that require crew bunk rest in order to operate them.

The new fleet that BA has started does not pay box payments for long flights or overtime for long duty days and instead of allowances based on the individual country, the crew get an hourly rate from check-in to clear.

That's the simple version for you.

A13,
It is you that totally misses the point.

Columbus was thought up specifically because Bassa was so intransigent to any change at all. It was a threat to make them change their stance but instead of talking and coming up with a good solution, they called a strike and allowed BA to start the real planning for M/F and make it a reality.

I don't know how long you have been flying for BA but Bassa were even against the current long range agreement and it was put through by CC89.

Simon Talling Smith years and years ago was trying to get some change and it has always been blocked by Bassa and this is what we end up with; the worst outcome ever Mixed Fleet in full swing. It's bad for us and bad for them.

Good news for Mixed Fleet crew.

I have been told today by a Manager, close to M/F, that an announcement about a change in their pay is due to be made.

Also the Future Talent role which is a programme to fast track main crew into becoming a CSM is changing.

I don't know if the name is changing but they are being given a similar role to WW Pursers and are getting a pay rise in recognition. BA have realised that these crew are doing a hard job for not much extra reward and it will also give the main crew another rank to aspire to.

Hope it is a decent payrise for you all.

Heads will roll over this pay rise. If the pay increase is as rumoured, MF crew will be very close to post 97 crew bar their variables plus the £2.40 per hour. Don't forget the basic of pos 97 crew with 14 years in BA is only aorund £1650 a month.

So what was the point of BA attacking its cabin staff if it ends up paying the New Fleet something not far off post 97 cabin crew?

I have flown as a VCC only to see BA giveaway shed loads of money in the end. So perhaps it was all about busting BASSA after all.

The difference in variable pay is I.R.O. £800 per month. Still a big saving!

Busting Bassa...no.

Stripping them of power, allowing BA to run its airline as it sees fit...yes.

As predicted, we are now seeing pro-strike supporters crowing "we told you so..." as more routes are moved across to MF.

The simple fact remains....the original IA was focused on the removal of a crew member and the subsequent imposition. Instead of focusing on this and wheeling in the trojan horse (ie premature strike action...12 days over Christmas etc) BASSA should have focused on the real threat to our futures which is MF......compromised on working one down and got stuck into negotiating the MF or even an integrated option.

Now we are left with the remnants of a bitter dispute, the waters so muddied that even the most ardent supporter has lost focus on what the dispute is now (or what it what) really about. The negotiations that are happening now should have happened 18 months ago. And what has been achieved?...working one down will remain and MF is a reality, and exactly how BA wants it. Future strikes will be an irrelevance.

I see only one winner here and it ain't BASSA.

Count N,

Even if M/F do get a bit more pay, it will still be a great saving to BA.

I didn't realise that the purpose of being a VCC was to cut cabin crew pay! You surprise me!

I thought it was to prevent a strike causing our customers hardship.

That's why I came to work and of course because I could see Bassa were making a monumental mistake!!

You are right though that BA are spending a lot of money keeping all these VCCs flying; and on top of their basics, which are much higher than our poor M/F crew, and most other main crew for that matter, they are given a daily rate that far outstrippes the hourley rate M/F get!! Strange that!

Count N,
Are you crew or a VCC or a pilot that is a VCC, just noticed you have posted a comment on the M/F thread saying how you have just been to Rio and rubbing it in to our M/F collegues how exopensive it is!

If you are a pilot, you should be ashamed of your posts! and if not, what are you and what is your motive for your posts.

Agree with everything Betty Girl posts!

I am also bit confused by Count N postings???!!!!!

I came to work also because I felt for our customers!

And I am also sooooo pleased to hear that MF is getting a little more money!

I am just hoping that this pay rise rumour is substantiated. People are now running round believing they are getting a 37% pay increase taking basic for some to the 40K per annum mark.

If someone has copy of the email could they confirm if this is true as this will cause great unrest if the saalries are now indeed to be increased by 37% and made higher than the crews on Worldwide and Eurofleet.

If this is the case then what has the last 2 years been about ?

Prism,

I don't think the CSMs are going to get a big pay rise and 37% of 25K would not equal 40K anyway! They may just be getting a normal pay rise.

Main crew on M/F may get a small one.

The 37% rate may refer to an uplift to the F/T crew, but 37% of 11K would put these crew on around 15K for doing the job of a purser (whatever it may be called) and that may be where this figure has come from!

I was not given any figures but they are going to get a rise and lets hope for the sakes of all these young aspiring crew that it is a good one, that makes them more happy.

Betty I hope so to. I saw the latest numbers of people who have left MF and it was no way near the numbers some would have us believe. The surprise I had was that it was CSM's going.

Prism,
I had not heard that, I had heard it was mostly ex-temps and people who lived too far away. Although many more are going to their managers and saying that they will have to leave if things don't improve! So lets hope this is good for them all.

CG,
Hope all is well for you & co.

I know of one CSM training course where 3 left before completing the course. They returned to their previous airlines who offered them their jobs back.

Speaking to a friend who is Flight Crew with Thomson, he was telling me that a number of their seniors had been offered CSM but were reconsidering as they saw the role and responsibilities too daunting to be able to confidently undertake.

Even after working for BA for years, I still find the role of CSD challenging at times. Different customer profiles, route specific routines and customs, premium cabin service style and standards, crew performance management, flight crew relations, working with service partners, how to fix an inop seat!!!!, wrestle your way through AVOD.....all these to name a few isn't something you just learn in a 6 week training course. For external SCCMs it must be a hugely daunting prospect of taking out a wide-bodied a/c, in charge.

There has to be alot said for gaining years of experience in a large company with a world-renowned brand. And our customers expect this, especially when things go wrong!!

Lets hope that the whole MF package is made more attractive for everyone. That way our customers will recieve the standard of service they expect from BA.

Hula. CSD's do all the things you say,plus now they have their time monopolised being a Club Purser as well. I fail to see how they are expected to write reports on Pursers, if they are unable to observe them working?

I do feel a little sorry for the WW CSD's whose role has probabaly become the worst job on the aircraft. Also in my opinion, BA have unnecessarily loaded up CSD's by making them responsible for a door at 1L, when the crew member they sit oppposite or beside has nothing like the responsibilites of a CSD getting a flight away, and being ready at the door with paperwork when the aircraft arrives.

I asked at SEP a couple of weeks ago why CSD's had been given a door responsibility. No one could give a logical answer. Obviously on the 767 there is no option, but making a CSD rush from the office on a 747 to put his door in manula, and then rushing back to start the safety demo seems to habe been a daft decision by some faceless wonder.

So I am not surprised that CSM's are leaving MF or going back to their old jobs. For the money, BA wants blood out of a stone.

I know... I am a LH CSD!!

I am also not alone in thinking that CSDs are now less respected by the crew than they used to be. We are now seen as just one of the team and very few actually appreciate that we got the worst end of the deal when the crew member was removed. Don't get me wrong, I work extremely hard onboard, for my customers and my crew but sometimes somethings gotta give! ( and its usually GPMs!! ) You are right about being unable to objectively write reports on Pursers we cannot observe....unfortunately I don't have xray vision!;)

Count N,
Are you a VCC or a crew member, as in one of your posts you say that you are a VCC?

Hula,
I am sure that you now work very hard but you do get paid a good salary and prior to these changes some CSDs on WW did not contribute enough; I'm sure not you though!

I think that the passengers appreciate seeing the senior crew member out in the cabin and I have heard that the standard of service in club has improved as the CSD can now oversee that it is being done the right way!

Although you are not able to observe your Pursers (although, I have to say, that I have never seen a CSD do this in all my years) you can get a very good impression of all the main crew in Club cabin for their IFAs, as you are working really closely with them now. So that must be good, surely!

I think you will find the CSD coming more out of the Club World service routine more and more now. Please check your new service routine guide. CSDs are not expected to complete IFAs on main crew. It has been made clear we should be assessing the pursers who have hit the trigger which will mean overseeing them where possible. CSDs at their annual review now are handed a report on how many PSRS they have flown with who they have failed to make an IFA on.

You are correct results show that service standards are now at their highest in 10 years. 92% is the figure.

The new IFA forms will be rolled out very shortly and crew will need to find PSRs to complete their IFA's as CSDs will be assessing PSRS.

Betty it is a review that is under way and there is no guarantee of a pay increase. Our Reward and Recognition Dept are going to compare the average salaey of all UK airlines and ensure the rate is actually the average plus 10%. This all went out in an ess. It is a review only and if it is found that they made a mistake last year then it will be rectified and back dated to April 2011. It is a review.

In principle yes. But more often than not I do not feel confident leaving the Club World service as I find that many (not all!) crew need direction in its delivery. I also don't think it fair to leave the service (therefore leaving the Club crew working 'one down') now that the CSD is part of its delivery.

Really? Thats not what my manager expects from me! I am an onboard manager. I am working in Club with 3 other crew ( No Purser). Therefore I am the only manager who can assess them onboard. It wouldn't be fair not complete an assessment on a crew member whos trigger is high just because ' I am not expected to'! I am paid to manage performance. Its easier to assess those crew I am working in the same cabin with as opposed to a Purser who is in a different cabin!

Perhaps they do! I have no evidence of this though. Most don't even realise!!

I do agree that the standard of the Club service has improved....what does that tell you?!!

Hula
Do you think it would be a good idea for the CSD position to rotate between the cabins, so that all crew had the "opportunity" to be "helped"?
The Club/First purser could then run IFE and cabin checks, so no different really from when the CSD is on break. It would also be good for their career development and experience for when they have to work up.

malcomf We no longer have a CLUB PSR at BA. That position being removed was what caused the initial IA. Because of certain checks covered by the CSD the Captain also needs to know where he/she can find the CSD. I agree with you that PSRS should be able to work up without question and as we have had no PSR promotion on WW for over 10 years there should be no excuse for not being able to work up.

Well all, as a CSD you can do IFAs on any crew member and should do an IFA on a main crew member if you are working with them. You may be only held accountable for your Purser IFA score but you are still responsible for all the IFAs on your flights.

Some of you may be in for a big shock soon as BA, I know for sure on E/F, are talking about increasing the frequency of IFAs from 90 to 30 days. I personally think that would be ridiculous unless the assessment was more of a tick box form but on E/F that is one of our new Head of Department's ( S.M.) latest ideas as she has already done it in M/F.

Prism.
I have not been listening to galley gossip and have my information direct from someone very close to M/F. ( I cannot say more otherwise I may inadvertently identify my source). She has said that there will definitely be a pay rise for main crew and a bigger one for F/T crew and that the F/T role is going to become a stand alone rank similar to Purser as they are doing a lot of work similar to the Purser on WW and this will also give the other cabins more direction.

I don't know what the amount is but they have already established that these crew are earning less than market rate + 10% and I really think that is pretty obvious. So YES they will definitely be getting an uplift on their sallary. Don't forget that in charter airlines crew can earn £300 a month in commision and many have a more generous hourly rate. So I think it is you that is wrong, not me.

It is a review Betty. SMS has sent out an ESS letter to say it is a review and if the Dept responsible for rewards finds they made an error last year then they will put it right and back date it to 1st April 2011. The letter is posted in its entirity on other forums. I am ABSOLUTLY not wrong. It is a review. The union is also asking for M/F to be paid better. Those of us on existing fleets will have had a pay rise from Feb 2011 if we signed upto the individual offer; so it is only fair that M/F gets one too. Who knows there may also be a pay rise announced in the next deal put across ? On that we will have to wait. If existing fleets have or about to have a pay increase then it is only fair that M/F gets one too. Betty you are telling crew in your post that they are as you put it DEFINITLY getting a pay uplift. What happens if they dont; you will have been responsible for creating an expectation. Why not let SMS and the Reward Dept do their studies and report back and that way nobody gets false hopes or expectations ?

Prism,
Of course it is a review but the results of this review WILL result in a pay rise. I have seen it printed on another site and I think I recognise your posting style from over there.!I don't post over there myself as I find it a very nasty site in general and feel very sorry for the new entrants posting there!!

Hula.

''I do agree that the standard of the Club service has improved....what does that tell you?!!''

What do you think it shows? I think it shows that the CSD managing from his office was in-affective and him/her being in the cabin seems to be better!! Obviously it is a lot harder for you all and I do realise that but some have spent many years being very in-affective and as I said , I'm sure not you. Some still probably are still in-affective but some are loving being back with the customers and more hands on even though I can see it must be hard work but you do get paid a lovely sallary! Which I hope makes up for it. On E/F the CSD is still respected and they have been working in the cabin for years and years!

As do you Betty.

Betty you also arent aware that the CSD is no longer on the trolly. They are now in the Galley and released back to talking to the Prems / Gold cards etc. This move was made about 4 months ago. We try and take the meal order, assist with the first trolley and then move to the galley so we can trouble shoot, the captain knows where we are and can disengage where necessary to talk to our premium customers be they in First, U/Deck , Club or traveller. This was in reaction to premium customer feed back. It has changed again.

prism,

I have never posted there. I am sure it would be obvious if I had because I too have a very distinct style.