well said sign-it...
my views on this are already a few pages back but just to reiterate (and probably repeat the above post) you will do untold damage not only to the airline/profits but think about what the ground based staff's opinion and support for your cases will be like in the event of strike action.
However, was it wise of the company to imply the new deal was sealed a few weeks back on the intranet when we are now faced with this situation?And is continued investment in Virgin Nigeria ever going to reap any rewards or will it continue to be a money pit?£41.8million I believe last year,makes the payrise situation a little hard to swallow in my opinion but I guess theres little us ground dwellers can do about it.

Yes I totally agree that sticking together makes us stronger and voting to industrial action would do this, but some crew are just shouting STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE like its the easiest thing in the world. I'm not sure from the texts and emails that I have recieved that many crew actually understand the ins and out of what strike action is all about. Speaking on a flight this week, I was astounded to learn that almost half of my crew didnt know that industrial action is UNPAID. When they heard that they would be missing 1-2 days pay, they looked a little lost.
Will be interesting to hear next proposal.

As usual in these situations there is a few that shout louder than others. Certainly when I've spoken to a few CC lately they didn't seem to understand the situation. Spoke to one last week who said she only voted no because she was told to. She couldn't even explain anything of the last proposal that she had just rejected, but just did as someone told her. :ugh:
I don't think you will get anywhere soon on route allowances (as has been suggested) either as don't these have to be approved by the Inland Revenue, which no doubt takes an age?

Have a look at this site

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

Where do you fit in?

Strike...
 

Despite the fact I will be voting YES to industrial action I do hope things do not go that far and that an amicable agreement is reached!

Quote:

---

This part of our "pay package", as I'm sure you know, are subsistence allowances. It is for food and drink whist downroute, and is based on the prices in the hotel we stay at. Obviously the menu is cheaper in LAS than ORD. This is non negotiable, and has to be approved by the Inland Revenue in the UK. That said, the IR are currently looking again at how these allowances are paid to every airline in the UK!!

---

With regards to our allowances - the Inland Revenue do not specify that our allowances have to be paid in this way. We can be paid hourly rates or nightly rates, the tax taken from these will be different although this is a lower rate than the normal earnings. 33% of your allowance is taxed and the remaining 67% remains untaxed. Virgin chooses to pay our allowance in this manner and the IR does not tax them as they are considered for use downroute only. The fact is most of us are so poor we have to bring them home and fraudulently spend them here. It is potentially more economically viable for us to be paid like other airlines who receive hourly/nightly rates.

Our conditions are good at VS I we cannot complain now VSwap and in action... although I am still too poor to use my concessions.

We MUST continue to stick with our votes and hope that the company takes any realistic suggestions on-board and we reach an agreement. If we don't we will loose our entire deal!!!!

Not sure if it has been posted? But is everyone aware that CSS AND FSM interviews have all been cancelled (sorry if I am the barer of bad news?!) I know there were lots of people recently invited!

The reason is of course due to the ongoing pay dispute. It seems the management are playing dirty!

One only has to read this article to see that there is a world of creative accounting going on and that the company has invested heavily in itself thus reducing its bottom line profit (tax liability).

http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210290.html

In summary from article;

The airline announced that new routes and growth in fleet were attributable to its record sales, adding that its core sales increased by 13 per cent from £1.88billion the previous year, to £2.14billion.

The number of passengers increased by 10.5 per cent, to 5.1 million, as Virgin Atlantic expanded the number of destinations it serves around the world

Pre-tax profits for Virgin Atlantic and its leading tour operator Virgin Holidays, excluding Virgin Nigeria Airways, were £46.8 million following a major investment programme in products including the Upper Class Suite, the new Premium Economy cabin, new route infrastructure, and the new London Heathrow Clubhouse

Sir Richard Branson, President of Virgin Atlantic, commented: "The last financial year has seen Virgin Atlantic continue to strengthen the value of its busines through investment in people, new aircraft, new routes

Substantial investment continued to help th expansion of Virgin Nigeria Airways, the start-up private sector flag carrier for Nigerian which Virgin Atlantic has a 49% stake. Losses at thecarrier were £40.8million but sales increased sharply, from £24million to £83.6million.

As stated above, everything increased excpet profit - of course it did spending programme is huge.

Playing dirty? Are you for real?

Of course the company are cancelling promotional courses. Why on earth would they promote people, pay higher salaries, invest in training and career development, when they are faced with industrial action which is set to lose millions of revenue. Even if strike action is avoided, the negative impact on the company and its customers from the mere talk of a strike is enormous. Yet again another example of me, me, me - why are the company doing this to us!!!??? VAA is doing what any business with an iota of sense would do.

And I have to agree with the previous comments about people shouting for strike action - they are whipping up a public feeling of discord, which to a large extent is not there. Yes the crew want more money and better conditions, and I am quite sure that will be negotiated prior to industrial action. Yelling about strike action is immature, unprofessional, and premature. Perhaps those calling for it do not have the capabilites to have rational discussion. I would also question their committment to their colleagues, who in all reality could face redundancies if the industrial action goes ahead.

This is a game to some degree - every company holds its cards close to their chest - of course VAA were not going to give us everythng we wanted straight away. I can however bet they are less likely to have faith in is as crew when all they hear is the ill-informed calling for strike action with little or no concept ot the implications.

I certainly dont want to strike but unfortunatley it seems to be the only language our Management speaks. All we are to the current management are a financial outgoing which needs to be as efficient as possible.

Is it possible we could have had initially just the rate of inflation and No changes to our terms and conditions? Perhaps if an extra standby month could have been acceptable with a futher pay rise? Saving all this negative press. I think that would have been fair. I think the whole issue has been handled very badly. It just makes VS look now like any other corperation with an unhappy workload.

What would you vote yes to?
 

Here is what I would vote yes to.
4% increase on basic with immediate effect.
Extra Stand by month
No protected weekend off in sby month
Lose the 4 hour call out.
Salary review of current RPI over next 3 years.


I dont really care about the SBY month (even though I have 2 children), with facilities such as the Crew Service centre it doesnt have to be stressful.

So I lose my weekend in my SBY month. Again, who cares? I get to request trips/days off throughout the year which other carriers dont have and also have VSwap at my disposal.

Have never used the 4 hour call out facility, always make my flioghts as I want to fly and stay close by.

I'd like my airshare to remain intact as this gives me a great incentive and the cm on the 600 is an absolute MUST. We wont suffer but our pax will!

Possibilty of a yes vote from me:

4.8% immediate base pay increase (backdated to expiry date of previous pay deal)
Trip pay £50
RPI increase over remaining term of agreement
No decrease in crew members on any aircraft
No loss of weekend off during standby
No extra month of standby - although this doesn't really affect me I know standby is really difficult for some of my collegues
4hr call out doesn't really affect me as I live close to base

Following on from Sign It

RPI increase (based on the entire financial year 2006/2007 around 4%) and backdated to April.

Annual salary increase based on RPI average for the entire year.

No additional conditions or removal of anything.

That's it. Nice and simple.

Any additional conditions or removals require a further payrise.

Airshare Removal - 5%
Extra Standby - 2%
Removal of Weekend Off - 0.5%
Removal of crew from 600 - Additional payment of £10 per 600 trip.

It would be really great if the company could put some kind of voting thing on iFly. just like they have for crew food. That way they could see exactly what crew are looking for. For example crew ranking the order of importance for what they feel effects their lives the most. Increased basic, Increased sector pay, more/less standby months, weekends off, etc etc

Im right with you sign it, the only reason I didnt vote this time(yes im sorry but i was really on the fence with this one and i didnt want to submit a half hearted vote) was because I was torn by losing the ccm etc. The actual pay deal was not brilliant but a realistic offer I think. Lets not forget we are very lucky to have Crew Service Centre, No other airline offers anything like it and it does make stby month easier.
The trouble is we are in the type of occupation where stby is a must so when crew complain that its so difficult for them to do as they commute etc, well it doesnt quite cut it. Unfortunately its the nature of the job.

Something similar to below, also now is a good time to review any issues that are outstanding or not being actioned.

1. Sensible increase for basic salary (4-7%) effective immediate and backdated to last deal expiry.
2. No additional Standby
3. No loss of standby weekend
4. Shorter pay deal e.g. 1-2 years. not 3 - a lot will change with virgin becoming a public limited company
5. Sensible Trip pay increase
6. More reward for senior crew (be it increase in basic or trip pay) to promote staying with and advancement within the company.
7. A review of variable manning
8. No permanent removal of crew on any A/C
9. Inlight of current "staff shortages" Pre-ops and vswap to be available 24/7 and any swaps actioned within a set time period - contractual not a perk
10. Review of airshare or similar incentive (in an upward fashion, not downwards)
11. Introduction of a reward system for crews waiting for rooms down route to discourage cheaper hot bedding contracts in hotels.
12. Increase of crew down payments as a deterrent to the company to employee sufficient crew numbers (perhaps an audit by union to confirm how many short the company is - if it is)
13. Bring in a 3rd party negotiator to carryout an audit within the company and create an action plan on how to reduce staff sickness and increase staff productivity. The internet is full of success stories of companies who have done just that and invested in their staff, the outcome higher retention levels, more productivity/turnover and increased job satisfaction, less sickness . All in all a great thing for the customer.

I know it seems like a lost list, but we have to have a wish list to work to right ? :O

What are you prepared to give up?
 

On the flip side of the coin - what would you be prepared to give up?

Following on from sign it to your room.

I agree whole heartedly with you.

I have said from the start of these discussions that a decent pay increase is needed ie 4.8% plus some increase on trip pay. We are very lucky in some respects in virgin ie crew service centre, vswap, etc.

As a commuter standby is quite difficult and expensive for me and many others but if it is needed by the company than so be it, after all compromise is the key here. I chose to live where i live after all. So in terms of what would i prepared to give up, standby would be would be my choice, i would give up the fight to lose it. If that makes sense. It seems the strike mongers are only a minority and the majority of crew want this resolved but we are not prepared to be walked all over . I also think the pay deal because of the games played between Mr Bollocks Boyd and virgin needs def to be back dated to april. There has been so many managers and union reps around check in , supposedly listening to what as a crew we want yet, none of the deals offered have represented our thoughts. I just would like to ask our other departments to bear with us , as i know if they were in the same situation we as crew would support them

Tags

As I was typing the post above I was thinking the very same. The problem with each offer to date has been, in short - in order to get a payrise that is in line with inflation the crew have been presented with a long list of items that they have to give up in order to finance the payrise.

Personally I do not think this is fair. However if it was for increased benefits and other items then there could be room for negotiation - e.g. the standby. However for a payrise which only meets/sustains the cost of living (RPI) the net outcome would be, "In order to be in the same financial condition as I was last year, I have had to reduce the terms of my contract". How would you feel about that ? - It boils my blood :ugh:

I note from your previous response you are flight crew, may I be so bold as to ask of the numerous offers that you all rejected how much did you all give up for your offer ? - That's a genuine question, I'm not being arsey or anything :O however I cant imagine the net cost was at your expense but at the companies ?? (I could be wrong though -no offence intended).

To date the cost to the company of every offer would have been absorbed by taking something from the crew - I very much feel the company needs to "invest" in the crew, not take with one hand and the other.

Best Regards

Hi scoobydooo,

We had 2 separate pay deals, and some things we negotiated in the first we had to give up in the second, to get a deal. Some of them were only pertinent to our contract and aren't common between the 2 groups of employees, amongst them were:

- Airshare
- To start monthly standby and subsequently lose the guaranteed weekend off
- Vastly reduced day off payments
- The ability for the co. to change some trips and not pay day off payments
- Dispense with restrictions on monthly rostered hours
- Lose the guaranteed fourth crew member on HKG flights
- No buffer days around leave (never set in stone, but definitely gone now)
- Transfer of pension to another scheme that saved the co. money

There are probably others, but those are the ones off the top of my head.


I believe you deserve more. The main point of my first post was to allow informed comparison between other carriers termsand conditions. Good luck guys.

i believe that a 4.8% increase yr1 followed by yr2 and yr3 at rpi is the MINIMUM which would be acceptable.
i've been with va 18 yrs and every year i've been waiting for acceptable wage increases.
A point not raised in this dicussion is perhaps VA has only made money in the past on the back of low wages.A decent increase would perhaps lead to a restructuring of the airline.(i find it incredible to hear BA is set to post 10% profit even after strike action and a fine to take care of.)Many other airlines are posting good figures as well.Why not us? We could be much leaner and pay proper wages.Tesco's make redundencies every 2 years to keep them ahead of the competition yet post good results each year.

1. Inlight of current "staff shortages" Pre-ops and vswap to be available 24/7 and any swaps actioned within a set time period - contractual not a perk (as posted by Scoobydoo).

Sorry Scooby, but I find that part of your 'desires' completely unrealistic. Why should the company allow us to write our own rosters? What other company (airline or not) allows that? At the moment the queues for the Crew Service Centre can be quite long showing that they are never off the phone! If crew need help for a genuine reason then that is what the CSC is for. By keeping it open 24/7 and giving a time limit on swaps, then its just going to be congested with crew who cant be arsed to do a Miami on a sunday morning!
I see it as a major perk. For my first decade at VA we had nothing like pre-ops or the CSC (depts that cost the airline money and that were put in place to reduce crew absence). So if we offer our crew a good pay deal then surely it should remain as a perk?

Hi. This isn't exactly crew related but just want to warn you all. I was a CSA until just recently. My probabation was "not confirmed" because injured myself at home and was off for 8 days with a Doctors Certificate.

I know I'm not crew and this doesn't have anything to do with the pay dispute but just something you should be aware of, as it would apply to crew aswell. Don't go sick when on probation.

Tags - Thank for your reply very interesting, if we give up certain things for the company then I believe a 1 year pay deal would make sense in order to see - how things have gone, has what was promised been delivered etc and then a 2nd set of negotiations a year down the line. AT this point I do very much feel a 3 year deal would not be in the best interest of the crew - unless of course it is a fantastic deal !

SITYR - Yes, I agree - the list is a wish list, basis for the start of negotiations, rather than a this is the minimum I will accept and the company then trying to apply the squeeze on that.

As for the pre-ops facility, it is there already (or it was until the No vote came in last week - coincidently timed staff shortages !!).

So it would not cost the company much to provide the service 24/7 and a guaranteed response time - it's pretty much what they were doing already. But in providing it as a contractual item serves 2 purposes -

1. They cant just switch it off again without being in breach of contract.
2. If we get it in the employment contract the cost to the company to "switch it back on" is minimal (if anything) so they have given something we wanted perhaps we now give something they want... and thus the negotiation continues.

I personally feel V-swap is an invaluable tool to crew - allowing the planning of ones social/home life to a certain degree.

VS-LHRCSA - sounds fishy what happened - especially if you had a docs note - are you represented by a union if so may be worth a word with them, failing that Human resources.

No, CSAs don't have a union. To be honest, I'm not bothered. I have interviews lined up and will hopefully move on. Definately learned my lesson though.

Good luck with your pay deal. Hope it works out for you.

Letter to Brian Boyd
 

This has just dropped in my intray. Brilliant!!

Please see letter sent from WDMM to Brian Boyd. Please pass this on

Dear Mr Boyd

Following the 92% no vote we have seen very little communication from our union or even a willingness to engage with us. Where is the ballot for strike action?

At no point have the union thought to ask what we are looking for and subsequently a situation has arisen where you were strongly recommending a deal, which was completely at odds with what we wanted. We are surprised and disappointed that you, as our newly appointed representative, have not addressed this and explained why to this point you have not represented our views in any negotiations with the company . Before going forward in this process we need to know that you are on our side and that you clearly understand what we are looking for.

In the absence of any communication or research by Amicus, a number of us have been polling the crew on recent flights. We have spoken to at least 300 crew and continue to receive hundreds of emails and a massive majority expressed the minimum deal they would accept which is outlined below.


We want a 2 year deal only. Not a 3 year deal

Year 1

1. 6% pay increase backdated
2. Increase to trip pay as outlined in earlier deals. Pensionable from year 1
3. Crew down payment increased for each crewmember per trip to £50/1 crew down. £100/2 crew down, £200/3 crew down.

We feel that this increase to crew down, rather than increase our salaries, would stop the company allowing crew down and reduce the impact to our customers and our morale.

Year 2

1. 4% increase to basic, trip and crew down payments

FSM/CSS pay

Amongst the FSM/CSS's we feel undervalued compared to our colleagues in other airlines in respect of our basics salary, more so than other ranks. There is a strong feeling amongst the FSM's that pay must rise to at least £28000 and £23000 for CSS. We all seem happy if need be to pursue this through a separate union.


Self funding?

The idea of self funding is not acceptable in any way, either terms of our remuneration, benefits or working practices. End of conversation.

Therefore in no way are any of the following acceptable

-Loss of crewmember of 600 or any other aircraft.

-Loss of airshare or reduction in any way. We would like a air share payment introduced which reflects our revenues rather than profit similar to that of the FD.

-No further increase to the block of standby in 3 year period


Planning for future pay increases.

Lyell Strambi mentioned in a recent company communication regarding the Base, that they had been putting money aside to invest for a number of years. Can we ask him why he has not adopted a similar approach to cabin crew pay?

How can present pay increases be funded

There are clearly ways of reducing costs in other areas

-BBMT courses

-Cabin service training days incorpaarteted with SEP

-Why do we have so many ground managers? Directors? If the company want to save money take the BA approach and clear out the huge number of senior and middle managers we have. BA manage to make huge profits and at the same time pay their crew considerably more than any realistic level of pay we are looking for.

Almost everyone we have spoken to would rather take industrial action rather than accept anything less than what is outlined above. Mr Boyd, you have clearly taken on the role as our representative and as such you must now start to listen to us, represent us and ensure what is outlined above is the minimum we accept.

The pilots got their deal last time, it is our turn now. Please do not underestimate our willingness to see this through to the end and we will certainly not forgive the union for any further mistakes.


WDMM

Who or what is WDMM?

Scooby the "staff shortage" situ with pre ops and csc is a genuine one and nothing to do with current pay talks, it is as sign it suggested, to many crew abusing the service by swapping and re-swapping same trips just to get something better.

A very good friend of mine was on a maternity ground placement there and said that crew are calling numerous times per day to swap, then calling next day to swap again for something better, on top of doing this with pre ops via the v swap option. Pre ops have such a back log of swaps that they can no longer take calls as well. She said it is not uncommon to see rosters now where none of the origional trips havent been swapped for something else, just think of how many crew we have and the amount of resources that are going into this service.

Many crew are beginning to get argumentitive and demanding to be taken of mia etc with excuses of commuting, etc. My friend said it wasnt uncommon for her alone to take 250 calls in an 8 hour shift. It is very unrealistic to expect it to be a 24/7 service as it is not operational like crewing and is only a nicety. Most of the people who take these calls are grounded crew on maternity so they would never be expected to do night shifts. Besides who on earth would need to call at 3am with regards to a swap?

WDMM
 

WDMM = We deserve more money

They are a group of senior fsm's and css's who seem to know what they are talking about. A group of vigilantes dressed in white if you like.

I think I have just flown with one as the questions they were fielding and replying to seemed to centre around a lot of what was in the letter.

Good on them I say. I dont think Brian Boyd is going to do us any favours and they are clearly going to to hold him to account.

Keep it going Boys and Girls :):):):):):):):)

WDMM Bravo !!

Is all I can say they have summed up everything I feel in their communication to the union.

Perhaps they should start a new union, unite would soon notice of members dropped and a new union came in to play !

Well done WDMM - T short slogan for the strike ?

WDMM
 

Bravo from me too. Reading my emails these guys have been working hard for the last few months, I think we need them to step forward and really take this by the horns. It is about time that we had someone fighting our corner. If the gossip is right about who make up WDMM then we have some great people pushing this. Would be good to see them enter the forums so we can get a dialogue going and would love to know what steps the crew should take and I think they will give us some direction.

Will WDMM stand as reps?
 

BenW

I emailed the WDMM email address last week asking if they were looking to come forward and take a greater role, it seems a number of them will stand for the union elections when they next come up to get rid of the wasters we have at the moment. We can only keep our fingers crossed, these guys would be great:oh:

Its great that they have set this up as it might actually mean the company stand up and take notice of the crews views.

Would someone please PM me their email address or post it here?

Cheers

WDMM contact
 

The email address being used is

[email protected]

seems they have a website planned too

Just a short message from the SLF in 22k
 

I realise that this is probably the wrong place to post this but I couldn't find anywhere else more suitable, sorry.

Just wanted to say that I travelled out on VS001 to Newark on 05/09 and back on VS02 on 07/09. I'd just like you to know how impressed I was with the professionalism of both Virgin cabin crews (and drivers!). I've travelled as SLF a fair amount and I've never seen such a hard working, polite and professional bunch... I could name a couple of names but I'm not too sure how suitable that would be on a public forum.

Many thanks,

BB

Perfect
 

WDMM you make perfect sense!

Does any one know wot an available day is exactly? How much notice do crewing need to give me for a duty? many thanks

Apologies for posting in your CC Forum,however having followed this discussions, some of you may wish to have a SLF,s perspective.

First I know you are there for passenger safety.

Second I know that you are under paid.

Third: I know you are employed by a commercial firm, whose sole purpose is to maximise profits.

However, with out giving offence:

Why did you decide to join, given that your starting salaries are so low?

The accounting practices of VA, as to register a profit or loss within the Virgin Group are, understandabilly legendary.

Why is the service in U/C (sorry, never flown economy) so bad that I have sent back my Virgin Gold Card No 00 900 53* *** and will no longer fly VA. Having being a member since 08/94.

Why do none of you care?

Sorry, this is only the view of some one who pays.

Ex mil and slf 17,200 hrs.

ER

etonrifle can you let us know why the service in u/c was so bad? Was it actually the service or was it the product (undeniably bad the crew know, but the company doesn't care because its cheap to provide)?

eton - crew just trying to retain what conditions they have at present, every offer to date has tried to take something away from us (see post on v-flyer website about pay deal). As posted above also interested in why you no longer fly - crew attitude or company cut backs ?

glamourgirl available day - cant find an official CAA definiton (CAP371), though will be int he manuals somewhere - it may be same as CAA contactable Day - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=12

If you find it in the manual before me please post it here.

Having looked through our manual I can only find contactable which says contactable period is 0930-1200 local, however the times may be changed to meet operational requirements. The times of the contactable period will be shown on the roster. Only one "Available" period shall be rostered per day.

Dont know if that is clearly it or not.

wedeservemoremoney.com