Blimey orangelitebulbtech,
You're head must be really sore by now with all that wall banging :ugh:

Hahahaha yeah i was wondering how often i would have to use it to get a simple point across:rolleyes:

bulbs,

Accepting only 2% when cost of lviing gone up >4% not smart.
Not happy with only 2% in your department - get a union.

Have to give up years of seniority and leave due to my employer reducing my working lifestyle and conditons - not on your nelly now exercising my rights as a union member.

It's that simple :ok: for everything else there's mastercard !

p.s. Have never said am looking for crazy rises, my threads show what I am looking for.

Scooby......

Well i wish you all good luck, I'll watch with interest to see how you all do:ok:

Quotye Scoobydoo:And there in that sentance we have the crux of the matter.
There is a small minority of Cabin crew who are prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic so they can get their demands agreed totally.

Stuff the fact it will cause many to lose their jobs, just so when we go to the next airline they can say "We can get all our demands met just like at Virgin, even though they went down"

Just like the miners, just like the Rover workers, the end justifies the death of the industry/company.

Warkman

Every coin has 2 sides, you have focused and drawn reference to every industrial action which has led to company collapse - Though you have not drawn reference to the ones where the unions and employees achieved their goals. e.g. A near strike in Virgin a few years back by non other than our pilots. If you read the trade union news you can see a long list of companies in the last year who have taken industrial action and the result has been the employees have achieved their goals.

I would reword it, " There are a number of cabin crew who appreciate that in order to make any further progress the only course of action left is the threat of industrial action which may carry a risk however the risk to reward ratio is in their favour".

As you say two sides.
Re the companies where the Unions acheived their goals, at what cost? I bet the union paper does not tell you how many jobs were lost after that, or how many of those companies sent further jobs and buisness abroad.
What size were these companies? that can also have an effect. rather like comparing BA to Virgin really.

As for the pilots, I am sure one will be along in a min to explain that they were supported by all the pilots, that all (or was it the majority?) were in the union and that it had taken them years to get to that position, you don't have the support of the majority of unionised crew let alone the whole cabin crew comliment. That is a major difference.

But we will see soon.

What is the date given by the unions for the return of the ballot papers?

I fully appreciate the following and percentages were different with the pilots I only drew reference to them striking as you drew reference to cabin crew being prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic by threatening to strike. Exactly the same as the pilots did - this was the only similarity I was drawing, in effect the tool of choice is exactly the same (so by your rational the pilots were also prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic by striking at a time when revenues and turnovers were lower) , but accept underlying conditions different.

As for companies and size, feel free to have a look at each union website site as for company sizes, take BMI for example if we are not allowed to use BA as an example and other companies, it's not all end of the world outcomes.

Dates - dont know not received my union communication yet.

Regards
Scooby

scooby.....

the differences between you and the pilots ive listed below...

1. Pilots take years to train..... and gain enough hours... and as a result are not easy for the company to replace

2. the pilots stuck together



1. Cabin crew........ dont take years to train......

2. Theres a queue a mile long of school leavers who would love to do the job..... so you are readily replaceable

3. From what i can see on here you all have different objectives and are disorganised.....

Bulbs,

points noted, as mentioned in previous post only reason I drew parallel is that both were/are prepared to in warkmans words "destroy the company" in order to achieve to receive equal/similar remuneration/terms in comparison to those in equivalent roles with different employers.

However for one party to do it it was acceptable and for the other it is not. This is what I do not understand - or did the pilots cop as much flak from other departments when they were about to strike, I wasnt a pruner then :}

So those not in favour of striking and whilst I acknowledge the two scenarios are very different you have nothing to worry about then if it is such a minority prepared to strike right ?

It is becoming increasingly clear that some of you who are advocating industrial action have a very limited understanding of history and its relevance to your argument. The pilots never even came close to a strike. It is fairly obvious that it suits some militants to ignore that fact but in order to address it in isolation, during our negotiations with the company, there were times when we believed we may have to resort to it. However, we never came close and we certainly never rejected our union reps recommendations and we certainly never go to the stage where the cabin crew are at right now.

So, if you are going to keep harping on about how we the pilots, were prepared to bring the company down in order to achieve our demands, then at least get your facts straight. Had we been prepared to go that far? We'll never know. What we do know is that we had over 90% membership in one union and over 90% acceptance of our unions recommendation.

Now, let's compare that to the current cabin crew situation. You have barely 65% union membership and barely 60% bother to return their ballots and only 60% of those rejected the current offer. Your union leaders have not even given the company the mandatory information on their decision about when to ballot for industrial action. Yet here we have a few militants harping on with distortions and suppositions based on flawed information talking about being prepared to bring the company down as though the are sure that they'll have some sort of miraculous overwhelming support from a disinterested, marginal majority of their colleagues.

It is embarrassing to watch some of you use comparisons to the suffering of those who had to endure the hardships of world war II with your analogies of A-bombs and their influences on the outcome of the war. All you have succeeded in doing is convince many more of us who sympathise with your problems regarding pay and conditions, into believing that you are little more than a bunch of no-hopers with grandiose ideas which bear little relevance to the goals your colleagues would like to achieve.

You would be better served if you were to act realistically by accepting what is on offer now and then regrouping in readiness for the next round of negotiations in a little over a year from now. It's all very well harping on about how you are going to use your "A-Bomb" when in fact all you have is a few fire crackers. It would be comical if it weren't so pathetic.

All you and your pitiful excuse for a union leadership have managed to do is create some uncertainty for our customers which will have an adverse effect on the company's bottom line which in turn will mean that you have weakened your position even further for the next time around. When you can approach the company with a very solid majority of members who are able to comprehend what is involved in the negotiations and are prepared to support your reps overwhelmingly, then you can start to wield a bigger stick.

Do us all a favour and stop pretending that you are somehow going to bring the company to its knees with your unrealistic demands. You are about to fail miserably and that damage will set you even further back than if you were to accept the current offer, as per YOUR unions recommendation. All that will happen is that you are going to be in an even weaker position for the next time you have to go into negotiations.

The pilots have never threatened to strike. We never rejected the recommendations of our union. And most importantly, the vast majority of our membership had a very clear understanding of what was on offer and what our options were. Do not compare yourself to the pilots as it is like comparing chalk and cheese when it comes to the examples being bandied about by a few blinkered militants.

But the A-Bomb did end world War II, 6 days after Nagasaki Japan surrendered ending the war - I'm not really sure what you mean by that statement. My reference to A bombs is that they are on a par with striking, the last resort.

I may have my facts incorrect then, I was under the understanding that the union voted in favour of industrial action and this was averted at the last minute with emergency negotiations and the strike was called off ?

The following is fromt he independant 2001, you rejected an offer and the union was preparing an industrial ballot (as they are now in our case) I would say that is a similar position in terms of how close to striking, thoughe once again I stress the differences are noted.


Many thanks for your responses, if I have made a mistake and you did not indeed get close to striking as the news article details then I apologise, however I feel your aggressive tone is unwarranted.

Errr, how about comparing the sickness rates bewteen pilots and cabin crew. Pilots don't generally call in sick to get a weekend off.

Income Protection
 

Hello all,

I have just reread my benefits page in my offer letter, and I noticed that after 12 months we get Income Protection.

Please could someone let me know about this? I have private cover and wondering if it would be worth saving the £25 a month if Virgin will cover me.

Any advice would be great, either here or PVT.

Thanks,

Keiran.

Now Is Not The Time To Get Disheartened My Fellow Cabin Crew, Lets Not Lose Sight Of Our Goal,

To Get A Fair Pay For The Job That We Do,

Do Not Get Dragged Into Other Dept's Debates That Is Their Issues

The Do Not Have A Union And I Bet They Wish They Did

We Have Came This Far And We Are Close To Obtaining More

We Can Afford To Lose A Days Pay More Than The Company Can

Any 'Downsizing' In The Company Should Be Done At The Expense Of Strambi, Moir, Lee And Ridgeway

They Are The Ones That Are Inept At Their Jobs Sack Them!!!

I Have Spoken To Many Many Crew Who Feel The Same

Vote Yes To Strike!!!!!!

What a load of old tosh! Your union hasn't exactly done you proud so you lot seem to think. You've been told twice to accept the offer yet you seem to think there's still more in the pot. You guys are always wittering on about how bad your pay is, yet you're happy to strike and lose more wages. Do you lot actually understand what "strike" means? From what I hear there's a hardcore minority of crew who want to strike and are dragging many other crew members in on it all who don't really understand the implications of what they are actually saying "yes" or "no" to.

The majority of us on the ground don't have unions, and I don't think we wished we did either - we deal with the management ourselves face to face, and they don't get an easy ride these days. I think mentioning sacking Strambi, Moir, Lee and Ridgeway is a bit harsh. It's more than likely thanks to those guys that we still have an airline to work for when you consider all the events of the last few years - 9/11 etc etc.

The airline doesn't revolve around the cabin crew - yes you're on the front line but you're not the only people working for Virgin Atlantic. There's a lot more to it that means our aircraft get off the ground everyday, and all you're doing is holding everybody and their jobs to ransom.

And yes, we did only get a 2% payrise this year - but did we all switch off our pc's, put down our biros, tools etc and strike - no, I think not. What would the Cabin Crew have done then if we had been able to strike and grounded the aircraft - because you wouldn't have been flying. You would have all been up in arms no doubt!

Seems you guys want it all your own way, when unfortunately life isn't like that. Just accept the offer on the table because I very much doubt it'll change.

What a load of old tosh! - you are just jealous because you don't have the balls to form a union to represent you.

You deal with management face to face - well I suppose better being lied to face to face than via iFly.

We only got a 2% payrise - so form a union obviously your face to face negotiations didn't work?

What would the cabin crew have done if you had gone on strike? - support you

Want it all our own way - I don't think so. The pilots stuck together, we can, you should.

VOTE YES to STRIKE

Thats enough mud slinging methinks.........

nuts&bolts: Please do not make judgements of crew as a whole. Its unfair and downright rude. Look back through the threads, this has been agreed that we would not do this. 29% of crew voted No to the last offer, so you have no right to refer to the other 71% in the way that you do.:=

Backtofront and JB1888:
Load of old tosh! :yuk:

Think I'll only read Kasual Observers posts from now on, and of course our Scoobs................................

Thats a thought. Scoobs, why dont you take on board what KO has said and become our new rep?

Sign-it-to-your-room, I do apologise but the last couple of pages on this post were enough to rile me. This negotiation is at a crucial stage and we're now hearing quite enough in the workplace, in the press etc etc. Some of the comments on the last couple of pages are VERY valid and sensible such as Kasual Observers, yet others are still dead set on striking. I'm not juding the crew as a whole. We're very aware of the breakdowns of what percentage did or didnt return a vote. We have around 3500 crew yet how many actually bothered to vote or are in the union - we know because it's been worked out on here. There's no way I'd tar all the crew with the same brush and I can assure you I don't. We have an excellent bunch of crew who unfortunately are being dragged down by a minority.

Back2front - What difference does having a union make, if the money isn't in the pot to start with you can't have it in your wage packet. How many crew in the union have slagged of Unite/Amicus because they feel they've been sold down the river or they haven't got the result they wanted. After being strongly advised to accept the 2nd offer it still came back as a "NO" vote. To see the mess you guys are in now and arguing amongst yourselves, what good has the union done the crew? If I thought you guys were getting a bad deal then yes I'd support you, but at this stage I think you need to be realistic and accept whats there. The pilots did stick together, but never found themselves in the mess the crew are currently in.

It's all a bit of a shambles to be honest, and I'll just sit back and watch as to when those voting "YES" to a strike create uncertainly amongst our customers, and cause unrest for others working in the company.

N&B

TO keep it short and simple, yes the union is not perfect, what good has it done...

in summary without it the pay rises that have been negotiated over the last 5 years would at maximum half of what we have achieved, so - less union fees we are still better off than not having a union.

Granted it could do with some serious improvements in the communications with members area and a few other areas to but on the whole crew are better off because of it.

And so will the rest of the company be with out taking it forward to a strike.

I understand the frustrations of the crew, doing negotiations with management isn't exactly easy (I think they think as staff we don't have a clue what we're on about) but if the union has recommended the deal, best thing is to take it, don't try and hold out for anymore.

I support the crew in fighting their corner, but it's dwindling now they've been advised by the union to accept (twice :ugh:) and they continue to keep banging on about strikes. It's almost as though a small group are only in it for a good fight with management, or don't really know what they're saying yes or no to.

Oh well..............................................:hmm:

Ive spoke to alot of crew who are union members and would have voted NO to the last deal but due to the postal strike did not receive their ballot forms on time. Also many crew who did vote Yes actually regretted it in the end so it will be interesting to see what happens next.

Hence my comment Pay negotiations aren't easy - but clearly as a group you've different agenda's, keep changing your minds and seem to be squabbling amongst yourselves.

Why are those ticking a yes box on a ballot paper for something they apparently feel so strongly about such as a pay deal changing their minds - or are those saying yes to accept the deal having their minds changed for them now we've reached the stage we have. :confused:

If you are happy, stick to your instincts and your own beliefs and don't be swayed by others.

Enuff said from me, I'll certainly be watching with interest to how this all pans out and wish you guys luck.

Just been at the base and the atmosphere between office staff and cabin crew isnt good. Was talking to a "union" rep who said they were not able to talk to us and suggested looking up the word strike in google !!!!!! If any crew had any concerns. Where are our union? I heard down there too that when the meetings were taking place , only strambi and boyd were in the room, none of our virgin reps !!! They then came out and told virgin reps the deal and to recommend it. Its been a shambles from the start. What outside union rep is then allowed to post a message on ifly. Amicus have just contacted me finally to clarify my address after informing our reps three times that it had changed and still not recieving any voting forms. So hopefully they are ensuring that everyone recieves the ballot. For me, its the standby allocation that im not happy about. I will be onto my third standby month in december , after having not being called out for one month meaning loss of pay and allowances so therefore 5 months really is too much . As for other departments i know with hand on heart if you were in our postion i would support you all wholeheartedly.

Not able to talk to us ?? Under who's instruction ?

If that is what you were directly told then I would personally be on the blower to the head of the Union (name & number available via unite website) asking if they have instructed that reps no longer speak to crew.

If they are not aware of this advise him of the individuals name and exactly what she/he told you (there is an outside chance the management/company are telling reps this which is questionable in the least).
If they are aware of it ask why this has happened and request a formal communication to members to advise this.

We pay our fees such that we can speak to and ask advice of the reps at ANY time. Get on the blower and escalate it.

Scooby

Just to break the ice, I did look up strike on google and it sent me to wikipedia, I had no idea there were so many types of strike :p

Do you think this is what the rep wanted you to look up ?

:O

Union reps or union officials are not allowed, by law, to instigate or coerce employees into strike action; well any form of industrial action. It is for the membership to suggest and vote for industrial action.

I would imagine some form of meeting will be held between the union and its membership to discuss the next steps. Crawley football ground used to be a good place for a mass meeting. Maybe Bar Med would be more suitable in Crawley, or maybe somewhere a bit more exclusive Up Town?!

Perhaps Bar Med is not the best venue when you are reasoning on whether to strike or not. Beer goggles may be okay when you looking for a partner but I would suggest you leave them at home when you are deciding your future.

Well I've been reading the posts etc, and I have to say as a crew member the whole pay deal situation is now getting on my nerves!

I just want to come to work, do a job I love for a company I really enjoying working for. Yes I want to get paid a fair wage, but I don't want to see people losing their jobs and our customers going else where.

I do find it worrying when you hear crew say that they voted no but didn't really understand the offer, for god sake people act like adults and ask for clarification! I also find is sad when there are also some (a minority I would add) who are holding out for a strike without thinking.

I have to agree with what someone else said, and that is getting a strong union membership, and representation where everyone is working together for the good of the crew and the company to ensure we keep flying and growing and seeing our T&C's and pay growing with time.

Come on guys lets stop fighting and bitching amongst ourselves, and by that I include office staff, ground staff, pilots etc. Lets work together to ensure we remain a 1st class airline!

Strike action & pay deal
 

I see that there are many comments from passengers on this thread, saying that if Virgin hosties strike they will fly with BA in future - because if Virgin strike now, they are likely to strike again..... but hang on a minute..... BA ground staff have striked before to get what they deserved, so aren't they likely to strike again too?? :rolleyes:

If we were paid what the BA hosties were paid, and had the same concessions etc as BA, I think we'd all be pretty happy. And for all those people that keep saying 'well go work for BA then'..... it's not as simple as that. Some of us have been at Virgin for a good few years and worked our way up the ladder. If all the crew that are unhappy with the pay left the airine, Virgin would end up with inexperienced crew taking flights as Manager - I don't think that's the answer. Also, if we all joined BA, we'd have to start back at the bottom as Junior crew. You can't just 'jump ship' from one airline to another and be in the same rank.

None of us wants to harm the airline, we just want what is fair - some of us regard the job as a career, have mortgages to pay, families to provide for etc and Virgin management just don't see it that way, and nor do the passengers :sad:

Boofers, it is not rocket science. If you were booking a holiday for you and your family or you were going away on business, would you rather risk spending the Christmas period at the airport as half of Virgin is grounded or would you rather pay the same price to fly with BA and get to your destination. Of course talk about strike action is costing the company bookings and who can blame them.

Exvicar, I do see your point, believe me. However, if Virgin had listened to VS crew and met us at least half way with what we wanted (and we aren't asking for a fortune), maybe we wouldn't be in this situation and you wouldn't have to worry about booking holidays with Virgin Atlantic???:ugh: It's frustrating all around....

Fully agree that crew want what is fair, have mortgages,bills to pay BUT if a strike was to go ahead there is no doubt it will be damaging to the airline and there would have to be cutbacks. That in itself could possibly result in job losses, loss of routes, loss of passengers (less revenue) so can anyone be sure that they will then still be in a position to pay their bills, mortgages etc? It's a very big risk to take....
The actions so far must've made the company realise that times are a changing and when future pay negotiations come around, that the crew are a force to be reckoned with, BUT if a strike goes ahead now, will there be money in the pot for subsequent pay deals etc...?

As for those who say they have been at Virgin for quite sometime and aren't prepared "to jump ship" as they would lose their seniority and have to start at the bottom all over again - fair comment but thats the standard in aviation (unless companies are looking for direct entries). But ask yourselves whether or not you're position at Virgin is guaranteed...? I doubt the job losses will be based on a 'last in first out' basis, but i wonder if the Performance Monitoring will be looked at....?

Boofers, this seems to be the crux.
Most people I have spoken to don't really seem to know what exactly the CC wanted and that includes Cabin crew!

To help us all, what was the deal you were looking for that Vigin failed to meet you half way on???

I personally wanted them to address the crew down situation. I wanted the payment structure increased significantly. Not so we could benefit from the money but so that the company would not allow the flights to constantly go crew down. As it would cost them more money. They are spending money on extra days of training to preach consistancy, within the service and then having all crew working up . Some with little knowledge of the products therefore no consistancy. The other aspect for me personally was the standby element as i said in earlier posts. Some guarantee needs to be put in place so that income is not lost, if they have no flights for you. Especially when as crew you need to be as close to the airport as poss only to have to go back, therefore incurring several costs . The item of losing a crew member i was originally incensed with but at the end of the day the company can and most probably will re-write the service flows eventually, they dont, i believe need the unions approval necessarily to do it.

What deal did the crew want ?
 

One problem we have is that we don't actually know what the union went in asking for. Each person as an individual has an idea of what they want out of the pay deal, but was this what the union asked for. For all we know, the company have met all the demands which the union made. They may not have met the "demands" of each individual cabin crew member, but that's really never going to happen.

There have been some very eloquent posts on here over the last day or two, particularly from Kasual Observer, which make some very good points which we as cabin crew should listen to and take in to consideration. There have also been one or two people, who whilst probably having valid points, have tried to get their point across by making derogatory comments - all this does is get people's backs up and stop them listening to what is being said.

Guys

If the strike should take place, then you will need pleanty of space for discussion - I'm closing this thread as it is quite long already.

Please continue here on The Virgin Strike Thread (Merged)