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Virgin - Crew Discussions II

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Virgin - Crew Discussions II

Old 13th Aug 2007, 13:04
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You Think, Therefore I Am
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Virgin - Crew Discussions II

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TightSlot is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2007, 21:34
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Don't let them give away OUR pay

To put this into perspective when the company states it doesn't have enough money to pay us more:

Richard Branson is donating 1.6BILLION over 10 years for research into carbon offsetting and bio fuels that (hopefully) will be better for the environment. While this is fantastic for Earth and a great cause this money is coming from Virgin Atlantic profits. My calculator has trouble because 1.6billion has too many digits but if you work out based on 1billion it equates to:

100million per year or divide by 4000 crew members thats 25,000 so no one should believe that Virgin don't have enough money to offer us a measly pay increase.

Vote NO and let us the hardworking crew (and don't forget the office and ground staff) share in the companies fortune.
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 09:11
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And the company that he is donating the money to is owned by?..........
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 11:15
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Virgin Fuels!!

Virgin Fuels!!
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 15:33
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While you are all rushing to strike, losing valuable customers and jobs
here is something for you all to read.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5acbd646-49c...0779fd2ac.html
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 16:37
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The Virgin 'GROUP'

I think you will find the investment in AirAsia X is by the Virgin Group, not VAA.

Same for the profit donations into carbon offsetting research.

Judging by the latest financial results, I don't think VAA's contribution to the above would be very substantial at all.
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 18:46
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Richards money

VS is Richards baby. He won't allow it to get as far as striking. Even if he has to dip into his personal fortune of 5 billion. He can easily make 250 million per year by putting his billions into a 5% interest bearing account.

THE COMPANY HAVE MONEY

Vote NO
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 21:07
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Several posts deleted.

It is understandable that feelings may be running high, however, abusing another contributor or calling their views 'crap" etc. does not move the argument along in any direction.

Play the ball, not the player, or expect to get deleted.
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 21:09
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Ah the urban myths that "the company" is awash with money, whilst having to pay more and more out to fight in an increasing price concious market.
Don't need new planes for the CC to fly around in do we?
Still CC don't care do they? so long as they can get over inflation pay rises if the company goes down or has to make redundancies, so what? always get another job, until the day dawns (quite soon now) when the jobs won't be there for overpaid militants. You are living in cloud cookoo land.
As for Branson and what he does with HIS money, he made it, he can spend it.
many regular passengers, you know, the ones who pay your wages, will not stand for their flights being disrupted and will go to other airlines offering as good a service, whilst even the Economy passengers, the ones who save up for 12 months for their holiday will also go to other airlines and will be surprised that the Cabin crew on those airlines actually smile and come round with more than one per flight drinks round and then do not go and hide in the galley, giggling and discussing their latest hair do whilst ignoring the call button, hell even the Charters on the B & S routes are providing a better service than you!
But you carry on, like the industries of the seventies which also were under the misapprehension that their jobs were fireproof.
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 21:21
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money

Warkman,

I think you will find the 1.6billion being given away over 10 years is 'profit' this means the cost of new aircraft, which are paid via the amortization method and crew/staff costs etc..etc... have all been taken into account.

Clearly you just have an issue with Virgin crew as you have started attacking us re: doing the cabin service and then hiding in the galley etc. Well I have been flying for 10 years and Virgin are my 4th airline. Yes the other 3 companies paid far better and I knew the salary at VS when I joined. But now several years on I can see clearly that the company doesn't give a stuff about its staff and are continually lying to us about having no money when clearly they do.
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 21:32
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Actually back2front, its not me stating those comments about the crews attitude, but comments from passengers on forums all over the internet, not just trip reports, but holiday sites and other discussion forums.
When people say that service is better on Charter flights then that should be a wake up call to you all.
You need to see how you are viewed by those who pay your wages. Its almost as bad a Flyglobespan! (Mind you, the complaints about them are only about flight times, not the poor service)

I shoukd also say that the 1.6 Billion (which will probably end up to be a lot less than that) is a legitamate cost for the airline to survive, unless Virgin do find renewable energy, your costs are going to rise and rise, plus the thuggy anti globalisatioin, anti aircraft lot will keep causing you more problems. Its a very good publicity piece from Branson, plus could end up being a nice buisness supplying to other airlines as well.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 09:33
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warkman I am well aware of the forums you speak of. I read the sites regularly and always with a heavy heart and wondering what we can do to fix this problem. Certainly taking a crew member off the aircraft is not going to help.

One thing I must say though is that many of the complaints are related to the product rather than the crew. Its quite embarassing as a crew member handing out the trays in economy with some awful hot meal that can not even be described as it looks so bad. Then we have a poor choice of drinks in the bar carts and even worse a lack of drinks (we frequently run out). VS are the only airline I have worked for that roundtrip wines and other drinks so they are supposed to load enough product for the roundtrip but this often doesn't happen or if you have a very busy flight you can easily run out leaving little or nothing for the return flight. This should not be happening on a premium carrier and could easily be fixed by exchanging drinks carts in out ports. Heading up to J class we have a cramped cabin and although I think the food quality in J is OK the portion sizes are tiny. VS responds that pax can eat at the clubhouse before they board but many customers do not.

Some of the crew do have bad attitude. Virgin need to address this by looking at the recruitment procedure and again the pay. They seem to hire people who only want to stay a few months to a year and in the process VS spend thousands and thousands of pounds recruiting, training etc to only get back a short period of work from the crew member. If they paid better I really believe people would stay longer and VS would increase their return on investment.

Renewable energy - all for it and I can see the business potential of supplying other airlines but if VS have this money to spend then they should at least pay us a bit more.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 10:12
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Warkman,

You seem to suggest that the attitude of CC is ME ME ME!
We are not looking for over inflated salaries but a salary that is in line with the rest of the company.

Last edited by sign-it-to-your-room; 31st Aug 2007 at 21:38.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 18:01
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Why should your salary be better? - you made a lifetsyle choice to become crew - you cant compare the two.

Look on Ifly - there is actually very little discrepancy in the VS salaries.

As Crew for Virgin, Warkman does have some valid points - I am fed up of the ME ME ME attitude.

And our service standards are slipping - we only need to look at XPlane and GAP to see that.

I overheard one Crew Member yesterday saying she only voted No as she had been told to - and therein lies the problem - this frenzy has been whipped up without people looking at the bigger picture.

Our profit per pound is very poor and it will continue to decline with all of this negative press regarding pay deals.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 19:36
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And perhaps Crew have a responsibiity to do the job that they are paid to do and not let any morale issues have a negative impact on the Customer.

The reality is that VS flights have a higher Crew complement than other carriers - even when we are Crew down which has become a lot less frequent we have the same number of Crew on our flights as other carriers with roughly the same config have.

And as for pay - as a Senior Cabin Crew member last year I earned just short of 19k comprsing basic, trip pay and comissions- and that does not include allowances - average allowance per annum is equated to 5K - I think that is a good salary for the jobs we do.

Its a lifestyle choice to work for an airlines - especially one like Virgin> I would not even contemplate going to another airline for a few grand more because Virgin offers me more lifestyle benefits.

But I guess most people find it easier to moan, take no responsibilty and expect handouts. And I could almost guarantee that the employees on here who genuinely berate Virgin for being a poor employers are very vocal about how great they are onboard and its all the companies fault that they have no job satisfaction.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 02:09
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All for Jcdcon I'm afraid.

Firstly Jcdcon.....
When I said it should be better, I did not mean 'better than Office staff', but better than it is now. You mention iFly and the salaries advertised there but have you actually ever worked in a VS office, spoken to the staff about pay and seen what many take home with overtime, increments and staff shortages? Probably not, otherwise you would not have been so quick to bite my head off.

Secondly, why can't I ask for a pay rise after 13 years? The nurses, teachers, firemen etc do it after a year or so and no-one bats an eyelid, even though they clearly knew the salary when they made a career choice.

Thirdly, I strongly and wholeheartedly disagree and take great offence to your (and others) suggestion that Virgin crew have an attitude of Me Me Me and that we provide a poor service and are sheep when it comes to voting!!!
Look around you. The forums are full of complaints for ALL airlines and not just Virgin.
I voted NO because 23k as a Manager just doesnt cut the mustard with me!
Allowances? These are not a taxable element of my salary, do not count towards my mortgage borrowing capability, therefore I wont address any comments on them except this. BA/2 night NRT/425. VS/2 night NRT/150.

It is superb that as a senior CM you feel great about earning 19k. I hope you feel as ecstatic about earning 23k as a Manager in 10 years time. Before you launch the lifestyle card again, may I remind you that its not all Hard Rock pool parties, but working Christmas (for a 50 bonus), enduring long delays, flying in Red Alert times and a damn lot of studying.
I remember being a senior and how stress free and easy my life was, but its not like that as an FSM. Whilst you are getting some kip for the return sector, I'm quite often sorting out sick crew (on average about 1 in every 6 flights), talking to the hotel about crew behaviour (yes that happens too), talking to ground staff and airport staff about delays, catering probs etc (yes they call your room) dealing with lost items etc in check-in when we land and generally being a manager whilst supposedly off duty. You may not see that, yet you speak of the bigger picture, but are clearly just seeing the horizon. When I joined I did not see a big ad saying 'Managers come this way for 22k'. I joined as a junior with a salary I was happy with. I just didnt expect my salary to creep up so darn slowly! I thought it would at least keep up with my growing expertise and experience!

You mention crew compliments. I can guarantee you 100% that those levels are not there to make life 'nice and easy for the crew unlike those other horrid airlines'. Those levels are set because Virgin knows that to ensure the service it promises its customers, those crew HAVE to be there.

I happen to love my job and love the company but I simply feel that I should be rewarded with a better salary.
I have a mind, I have a brain. I care about my pax and the brand. But my morale is low after seeing several payslips from other depts. To be blunt, I feel like I'm having the piss taken out of me now.

Last edited by sign-it-to-your-room; 31st Aug 2007 at 21:39.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 10:11
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Lots of comments from both sides of the coin here...agree with some from both sides. if i may give a view of the situation from a different department. You can't compare salaries with different jobs...everyone gets paid according to the job they do...pilots gets the most....some say they are paid way to much....some say they take a lot more responsibilities than anyone else as they are in charge of the plane, but only while it is in the air.....don't forget all the people behind the scenes that take a legal responsibility for the plane i.e. the qualified engineers, both in the office based jobs, in the hangars and on the ramp. These staff have studied far more, and for longer (approx 7 years to be qualified!)(how long for cabin crew ?!!), take a lot of responsibility but are paid far less than flt crew. Supply and demand forces at work here.. Now the pay rises for nearly everyone else in the airline (but not flt crew !) have been basically the same as cc. The difference is that VS wish to change your terms/rostering/standbys etc. My understanding is that one of the biggest problems VS has with CC is the level of sickness/no shows for flights by CC. If CC think the working conditions are that bad then leave. Supply and demand would force VS to pay more/improve conditions etc if the turnover got to high. If no one went sick, then the large amount of standbys would be reduced. Yes working conditions at VS have gone downhill in recent years, however you know where the door is......As to levels of service in the cabin....they have definetly got worse in all cabins. Some of this is due to the cutbacks in food, drinks, amenities kits etc, which does make CC jobs harder. However, everyones job is now harder, I personally believe it is the crew that make the difference on the flight. In my experience VS Y has never been very good, its OK but there are many airlines especially from Asia that provide far superior service in al classes. I recently took a company business trip to LAX in J. the outbound flight although late in leaving due to baggage problems, was excellent. Food was average but crew were excellent. The return was the opposite. CC continually heard complaining about lack of sleep, hangovers, hardly had the initial service finished, the numbers of CC suddenly diminished...I wonder where to..! Yes you guessed it from this post that I am not a fan of moaning CC, if you don't like it leave.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 10:47
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WILL PEOPLE STOP SAYING THAT WE ARE COMPARING JOBS AND SALARIES! WE ARE NOT!

Right now that I have that off my chest, I feel I must make it clearer why the 'comparison' was made.
The Office staff (most, not all) are earning money which reflects not only the job that they do, but also the cost of living today.
If office staff can be paid a fair salary, then why cant our cabin crew? 900 pm is not realistic for a young junior living in the south.

So you say if you dont like it leave! Great! Fantastic! 94% of VS cabin crew make a mass exodus for the job centre. Who takes the flight that day? The pilots? The Engineers? The Office Staff? The Ground staff? NO-ONE! Because no-one has our training or knowledge to just take a flight.

We are in a strong position and not being greedy or unreasonable. The 4.8% would have been fine if the other 'enhancements' were not shoved in. No-one is looking for 10% or other crazy rumours.

And yes I agree, moaning cabin crew are a pain in ass, but not unique to the airline. Snappy engineers, Silent checking in staff, busy club-house staff etc etc. They ALL do it.

Why other staff are making this a them and us situation I have no idea why.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 13:02
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Sign it to your room , you are so bang on in my opinion. I am also an FSM and very similar to you was happy earning 8K as a juniour but once again thought that it would not take so bloody long for my salary to increase. I have noticed on here too many times people are trying to make this a them and us situation which its not !!!!!! I work hard and give 120% every time , i have read alot of these forums too and sit gutted wondering what we can do to improve the situation. All the other departments pay increase was without conditions attached yet ours as cabin crew always seems to have them !!!!! Why !!! I would have been happy with the increase without conditions.. We as crew have joined a union to get recognition which other depertments havent so why is it wrong to be asking the union to do something for us, after all we pay them every month ! I dont want to strike, it sends the wrong messages out to our customers, but we need to stand up for ourselves - dont we ?
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 14:22
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At last! I thought I was going slightly mad there for a second.

Anyone would sthink we were asking for shares in the company, a nice Audi TT company car etc etc.

I don't remember all this fuss when our pilots got so close to striking. All they wanted was a salary that was in line with other airlines and everyone whole heartedly agreed with them (I still do) and shouted 'Here Here' from their loud hailers across the globe. I dont remember a single comment of "bugger off to another airline if you dont like it" either, so why the blatant lack of disrespect for our crew?

I know that crew are seen as being far more dispensible to airlines and easier to replace, but in reality that is a total myth. Us oldies at VS are needed. You can be the most fantastic Senior/Junior crew member but no amount of smiles and conversation will give you the wealth of experience that time brings.

As for the service going down hill, then yes that needs to be addressed. I shall certainly take note on my next flight about the comment of crew disappearing when the service was barely over to go on break. I have released crew early before, but now shall think twice about it.

We seem to be getting lots of support from our pilots and other airlines (namely BA) but very little from our own workforce. We're not at war and the general census is that no-one wants to strike.
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