TV Prog - Confessions of Steward
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Hew Jampton - At last a post that is not hiding behind the "It doesn't/couldn't possibly happen"
Programme was indeed the the most uninteresting bit of tele on for ages (and that takes some doing these days)
But we most all face up to it and admit it has and does happen, yes it's wrong to do, possibly wrong to air on national TV, I wish it was fiction but unfortunately it's fact.
And before you ask, no I can't and won't substantiate it.
If my memory serves me correct the guy who "did a few bends over Russia" you may remember or not, did an article for the News of the World a few years ago regarding the c/c antics down route, with photos to prove it....I suppose it pays the rent !
Lets hope it is now all history.............
Programme was indeed the the most uninteresting bit of tele on for ages (and that takes some doing these days)
But we most all face up to it and admit it has and does happen, yes it's wrong to do, possibly wrong to air on national TV, I wish it was fiction but unfortunately it's fact.
And before you ask, no I can't and won't substantiate it.
If my memory serves me correct the guy who "did a few bends over Russia" you may remember or not, did an article for the News of the World a few years ago regarding the c/c antics down route, with photos to prove it....I suppose it pays the rent !
Lets hope it is now all history.............
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"2. Tea and coffee pots being taken into the lavatory compartment to be emptied, an action that would result in a land restaurant being closed down immediately and prosecuted (and don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft): SEEN - everday occurrence "
Hew Jampton....
have you ever been in a Dash 8 galley? There are no sinks and there really is no alternative than pouring it down the loo. Disgusting I know. However, what else is there to do when the pots MUST be emptied because there is no where to stow them if full? I personally hate the practice and when I can I leave them full until we get to the next port and empty them onto the tarmac.
So before you jump and say "don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft " perhaps you should think of the a/c that don't have galleys with sinks and there really is NO other alternative.
Hew Jampton....
have you ever been in a Dash 8 galley? There are no sinks and there really is no alternative than pouring it down the loo. Disgusting I know. However, what else is there to do when the pots MUST be emptied because there is no where to stow them if full? I personally hate the practice and when I can I leave them full until we get to the next port and empty them onto the tarmac.
So before you jump and say "don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft " perhaps you should think of the a/c that don't have galleys with sinks and there really is NO other alternative.
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Hew J; I notice that all the incidents you post are really to do with hygiene. All seem to be down to CC making the best of a bad situation and not down to malevolence.
A land-based restaurant has the luxury of space. Hygiene is a relative term when you discuss aircraft galleys. In a land based establishment you would be closed down for having a lavatory opening into the kitchen. It’s not even allowed in a private dwelling in the UK, if I remember correctly. This is a normal occurrence on an A/C. You would be horrified to learn what can and does sometimes happen in the kitchens of hotels and restaurants across the land. You might even be shocked about what can happen to the food before it is loaded onto the aircraft. Most people’s private kitchens would be condemned if health and safety inspectors inspected them. A/C do not come under the jurisdiction of these bodies for the very good reason that they would be automatically condemned and NO aircraft would ever fly.
I know that coffee pots are emptied down the loo when the galley sink gets blocked. What is the CC supposed to do on a 9-hour sector to BGI? Blocked sinks are a fact of life. Accidents do happen and yes I’m sure instead of running out of meals, the CC sometimes repair the damage and present the meal. Again this due to accidents and is not down to malevolence.
Hew J; with almost 40 years in the business I’m guessing you must be BA and at least a purser. If you see these things being done by your junior crew then it’s up to you to correct them. My other half never allows unhygienic practices or skivers among the crew. Anyone who tries it on learns very fast the error of his or her ways. Oh yes, before becoming CC my other half used to work as a personnel manager in the hotel industry so a direct comparison can be made. I will admit to getting fed up when she castigates me for infringing some hygiene rule at home when I put the shopping in the fridge.
I like everyone else have heard all the stories that were repeated on TV thousands of times before. Usually in the bar after a few drinks. The incidents are claimed to be true by the narrator, but since I’ve heard the same basic line told dozens of times by different people since I joined I know they are just shooting a line. It’s still very funny though.
What has really got my dander up is this accusation that we let CC fly the aircraft. The program stated 25% of those interviewed admitted to having flown the A/C. We know that that makes it two. The general public does not; the inference is that 25% of CC has flown the A/C. Piffle.
Just for the record I have not said that it could not or would not happen, I said that I have never seen it…a subtle, but important difference.
MOR/password, do try to change the FROM field in your profile. It does rather give the game away.
A land-based restaurant has the luxury of space. Hygiene is a relative term when you discuss aircraft galleys. In a land based establishment you would be closed down for having a lavatory opening into the kitchen. It’s not even allowed in a private dwelling in the UK, if I remember correctly. This is a normal occurrence on an A/C. You would be horrified to learn what can and does sometimes happen in the kitchens of hotels and restaurants across the land. You might even be shocked about what can happen to the food before it is loaded onto the aircraft. Most people’s private kitchens would be condemned if health and safety inspectors inspected them. A/C do not come under the jurisdiction of these bodies for the very good reason that they would be automatically condemned and NO aircraft would ever fly.
I know that coffee pots are emptied down the loo when the galley sink gets blocked. What is the CC supposed to do on a 9-hour sector to BGI? Blocked sinks are a fact of life. Accidents do happen and yes I’m sure instead of running out of meals, the CC sometimes repair the damage and present the meal. Again this due to accidents and is not down to malevolence.
Hew J; with almost 40 years in the business I’m guessing you must be BA and at least a purser. If you see these things being done by your junior crew then it’s up to you to correct them. My other half never allows unhygienic practices or skivers among the crew. Anyone who tries it on learns very fast the error of his or her ways. Oh yes, before becoming CC my other half used to work as a personnel manager in the hotel industry so a direct comparison can be made. I will admit to getting fed up when she castigates me for infringing some hygiene rule at home when I put the shopping in the fridge.
I like everyone else have heard all the stories that were repeated on TV thousands of times before. Usually in the bar after a few drinks. The incidents are claimed to be true by the narrator, but since I’ve heard the same basic line told dozens of times by different people since I joined I know they are just shooting a line. It’s still very funny though.
What has really got my dander up is this accusation that we let CC fly the aircraft. The program stated 25% of those interviewed admitted to having flown the A/C. We know that that makes it two. The general public does not; the inference is that 25% of CC has flown the A/C. Piffle.
Just for the record I have not said that it could not or would not happen, I said that I have never seen it…a subtle, but important difference.
MOR/password, do try to change the FROM field in your profile. It does rather give the game away.
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Some of the hygiene things? Yep - it happens, but then the aircraft environment doesn't lend itself greatly to hygiene anyway - you pays your money and takes your choice. None of what i've seen is malevolent, but then again nor is ending up witih twigs in your beans when you go camping.
But for the other stuff - maybe it's happened once somewhere in the dim past, after all, the number of flights each day, each country ... vast.
But to suggest that this is prevalent is ridiculous, and to add my penny - i've never seen it, nor heard of it going on (and one can get quite frank opinions downroute after a couple of beers) - even if a skipper (or FO for that matter) has @rsed someone off big time. Apart from Lankey. But that's another rumour....
So MOR, I'd call your bluff on this one - I reckon you're (a) making it up for effect, (b) not who you say you are <delete as appropriate>.
Back before 11/9, when the doors were open, we'd be in an out of the galleys all the time - and I'd have thought that someone somewhere would have made a few big issues if this sort of thing was rife.
It's not - although not saying it's never happened - but it's not.
But for the other stuff - maybe it's happened once somewhere in the dim past, after all, the number of flights each day, each country ... vast.
But to suggest that this is prevalent is ridiculous, and to add my penny - i've never seen it, nor heard of it going on (and one can get quite frank opinions downroute after a couple of beers) - even if a skipper (or FO for that matter) has @rsed someone off big time. Apart from Lankey. But that's another rumour....
So MOR, I'd call your bluff on this one - I reckon you're (a) making it up for effect, (b) not who you say you are <delete as appropriate>.
Back before 11/9, when the doors were open, we'd be in an out of the galleys all the time - and I'd have thought that someone somewhere would have made a few big issues if this sort of thing was rife.
It's not - although not saying it's never happened - but it's not.
BA purser? Wrong airline and wrong job. Anyway, I haven't said everything happened with one operator.
As to the "What else are we supposed to do with teapots?" brigade, the immediate answer is probably to do nothing. The solution is for aircraft designers, certification authorities and aircraft buyers to insist on galleys where the most basic food hygiene can be applied. But wait, that's not possible, it will affect profits. But wait again, the seat pitch debate is showing signs of pax being willing to pay a bit more for more room, so perhaps they might pay a bit more for hygiene.
Some more that come to mind:
10. Cabin crew asking the captain to misuse the seatbelt sign to prevent pax from using the loo and walking round to avoid DVT, for the benefit of the cabin crew: SEEN frequently.
11. Cabin crew blocking off serviceable lavatories to keep things in: SEEN frequently. I haven't seen dead bodies being put in the lavatory compartment, but I'm fairly sure that at least one operator would do this if it were to occur. Having said that, it's probably quite a sensible thing to do with a body, especially if there's a possibility of infection, so I disagree with the programme presenting this as a 'shock-horror' item.
12. An aircraft cleaner using a dirty rag to wipe all parts of the lavatory and then using the same rag to wipe the galley worktops: SEEN.
As to non-qualified persons (cabin crew, pax, ground engineers, flight engineers etc) flying the aircraft, I have seen or heard no evidence of this for many (10+) years, but in the past I have had enough independent reliable first hand accounts to convince me that it has gone on. In the absence of anything more recent, perhaps this particular item should be put down to history.
Yes, some of it's down to making the best of a bad job, and the bad job should be rectified by better design and training, but serving food that's been on the floor, putting fingers in food, using the pot spout to lift the seat, not washing hands?
As to the "What else are we supposed to do with teapots?" brigade, the immediate answer is probably to do nothing. The solution is for aircraft designers, certification authorities and aircraft buyers to insist on galleys where the most basic food hygiene can be applied. But wait, that's not possible, it will affect profits. But wait again, the seat pitch debate is showing signs of pax being willing to pay a bit more for more room, so perhaps they might pay a bit more for hygiene.
Some more that come to mind:
10. Cabin crew asking the captain to misuse the seatbelt sign to prevent pax from using the loo and walking round to avoid DVT, for the benefit of the cabin crew: SEEN frequently.
11. Cabin crew blocking off serviceable lavatories to keep things in: SEEN frequently. I haven't seen dead bodies being put in the lavatory compartment, but I'm fairly sure that at least one operator would do this if it were to occur. Having said that, it's probably quite a sensible thing to do with a body, especially if there's a possibility of infection, so I disagree with the programme presenting this as a 'shock-horror' item.
12. An aircraft cleaner using a dirty rag to wipe all parts of the lavatory and then using the same rag to wipe the galley worktops: SEEN.
As to non-qualified persons (cabin crew, pax, ground engineers, flight engineers etc) flying the aircraft, I have seen or heard no evidence of this for many (10+) years, but in the past I have had enough independent reliable first hand accounts to convince me that it has gone on. In the absence of anything more recent, perhaps this particular item should be put down to history.
Yes, some of it's down to making the best of a bad job, and the bad job should be rectified by better design and training, but serving food that's been on the floor, putting fingers in food, using the pot spout to lift the seat, not washing hands?
Last edited by Hew Jampton; 30th Apr 2002 at 12:24.
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Hew J; I’m beginning to get suspicious! You say that you’re not BA…. Ok. You also say “wrong job” You claim to have been in this business for nearly 40 years. Since I believe that all the airlines that have been around for that number of years recruit CC no younger than 20 or so, it would make you about 60…but ok, you say you’re not CC.
Now since you claim to have witnessed all these terrible things, you would have to spend your time flying the line in the cabin, but since you’re not CC how did you manage that? Flt crews spend 99% of the flight on the flight deck, so even if you were the Flt engineer (pretty much an extinct breed these days) you would not spend that much time in the cabin. How have you managed to personally witness so much wrongdoing? I doubt that the CC would continue with their nefarious activities if the skipper or F/O were watching.
The seat belt issue is open to interpretation. I personally leave the seatbelt sign on (as opposed to auto) until we have cleaned up after departure and are climbing away. This helps CC in the event of a problem that requires an expeditious return landing. The use of the seat belt sign is at the captain’s discretion and is NOT restricted to just turbulence. If the CC request the seat belt sign on and they have a valid reason, it goes on. That becomes a lawful instruction…. period.
The issue of DVT is very new and needs proper investigation so claiming that passengers have been trying to avoid DVT in the dim and distant past is rubbish.
CC use of lavatories for stowage, well that could be reasonable if you knew the full story, i.e. a light load and lots of serviceable loo’s or a partial failure that required it to be restricted to crew use only. That particular one has happened to me on several occasions. You say that you have seen it a lot, ok how many were left and what was the minimum required for the cabin?
A/C cleaners are no different than any other cleaner; they all do things that they shouldn’t. You can hardly blame CC for that.
Are you seriously suggesting that we should turn the A/C around mid Atlantic for a blocked sink? The passengers and company might have one or two things to say about that. Your suggestion that the CC do nothing is un-workable. (Another indication that you’re not really familiar with line ops)
Edit for typo (discretion)
Now since you claim to have witnessed all these terrible things, you would have to spend your time flying the line in the cabin, but since you’re not CC how did you manage that? Flt crews spend 99% of the flight on the flight deck, so even if you were the Flt engineer (pretty much an extinct breed these days) you would not spend that much time in the cabin. How have you managed to personally witness so much wrongdoing? I doubt that the CC would continue with their nefarious activities if the skipper or F/O were watching.
The seat belt issue is open to interpretation. I personally leave the seatbelt sign on (as opposed to auto) until we have cleaned up after departure and are climbing away. This helps CC in the event of a problem that requires an expeditious return landing. The use of the seat belt sign is at the captain’s discretion and is NOT restricted to just turbulence. If the CC request the seat belt sign on and they have a valid reason, it goes on. That becomes a lawful instruction…. period.
The issue of DVT is very new and needs proper investigation so claiming that passengers have been trying to avoid DVT in the dim and distant past is rubbish.
CC use of lavatories for stowage, well that could be reasonable if you knew the full story, i.e. a light load and lots of serviceable loo’s or a partial failure that required it to be restricted to crew use only. That particular one has happened to me on several occasions. You say that you have seen it a lot, ok how many were left and what was the minimum required for the cabin?
A/C cleaners are no different than any other cleaner; they all do things that they shouldn’t. You can hardly blame CC for that.
Are you seriously suggesting that we should turn the A/C around mid Atlantic for a blocked sink? The passengers and company might have one or two things to say about that. Your suggestion that the CC do nothing is un-workable. (Another indication that you’re not really familiar with line ops)
Edit for typo (discretion)
Last edited by max_cont; 30th Apr 2002 at 17:10.
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In my experience, pretty much every cabin crew member I have worked with has been highly professional. Sure, there's always a bit of banter, but the standards are usually very high.
At least we've found eight highly unprofessional ones and now highly unemployable ones!! Keep your eyes peeled for them.
As an aside:
Welcome to Human Factors , who is absolutely no relation to me.
At least we've found eight highly unprofessional ones and now highly unemployable ones!! Keep your eyes peeled for them.
As an aside:
Welcome to Human Factors , who is absolutely no relation to me.
I don't intend to do anything more that might exacerbate max_cont's wish to turn this into personal antagonism, or that might reveal my identity, but I have never been cabin crew, but have first hand knowledge and experience with several operators, past and present.
You, max_cont, presumably never position as a passenger where you might see these things (short haul crew in some operators do a lot of positioning), and never remain on the aircraft for short-haul turnrounds (up to five a day) when you might see these things. One of my points is that some C/C, but by no means all, think that they are doing nothing wrong in the actions that I have seen, so have no qualms about doing them in front of witnesses. I listed the things I have seen or have reliable information on - heaven knows what those sort of people get up to when nobody's looking! If they think thay are doing nothing wrong, or that the demands of the schedule etc outweigh the demands of basic hygiene and duty of care, then fundamental training in food hygiene etc is called for.
The CAA, as usual excels itself in burying its head in the sand over a matter in its 'too difficult' tray, saying its not their responsibility, although as MOR states, they are by no means unaware. The Environmental Health Officers have no mandate on galley hygiene and C/C practices (so far, but vide the HSE's increasing involvement in aircraft matters, it's only a matter of time).
Not "rubbish" about pax wanting to walk around; it's been basic medical advice to pax for many years, way before DVT became a populist issue (although DVT has been known about for years, people sleeping in deckchairs in air-raid shelters, being one documented cause). I note that my point about pax wanting to use the loo but the FSB sign being on for C/C convenience reasons is not addressed; I note the Freudian slip in it being at the captain's "digression" (discretion?), he's absolutely correct, to use the FSB for C/C convenience, not safety reasons, is a digression from what should be acceptable practice.
Are you really saying you find the practice of picking up food off the galley floor and putting it back in dishes etc acceptable? I know that it happens in land restaurants, but does that make it acceptable?
Using perfectly serviceable lavs for stowage, like crew bags that should be in the hold - what if the legal minimum are still available? Is that the customer service target to aim for, the minimum?
Did I say I blamed the C/C for the cleaners? Of course, if I can spot it while in the cabin area during the turnround, why can't they? When it is reported to airline management, not as a complaint about the C/C, but about the cleaning contractor, should they file it in the bin, as happened?
Suggesting the C/C do nothing meant that they do nothing other than what they are forced to do now on that particular subject. As I said, the long term solution is better design and more money spent in this area.
I'm plenty familiar with line ops, thank you.
You, max_cont, presumably never position as a passenger where you might see these things (short haul crew in some operators do a lot of positioning), and never remain on the aircraft for short-haul turnrounds (up to five a day) when you might see these things. One of my points is that some C/C, but by no means all, think that they are doing nothing wrong in the actions that I have seen, so have no qualms about doing them in front of witnesses. I listed the things I have seen or have reliable information on - heaven knows what those sort of people get up to when nobody's looking! If they think thay are doing nothing wrong, or that the demands of the schedule etc outweigh the demands of basic hygiene and duty of care, then fundamental training in food hygiene etc is called for.
The CAA, as usual excels itself in burying its head in the sand over a matter in its 'too difficult' tray, saying its not their responsibility, although as MOR states, they are by no means unaware. The Environmental Health Officers have no mandate on galley hygiene and C/C practices (so far, but vide the HSE's increasing involvement in aircraft matters, it's only a matter of time).
Not "rubbish" about pax wanting to walk around; it's been basic medical advice to pax for many years, way before DVT became a populist issue (although DVT has been known about for years, people sleeping in deckchairs in air-raid shelters, being one documented cause). I note that my point about pax wanting to use the loo but the FSB sign being on for C/C convenience reasons is not addressed; I note the Freudian slip in it being at the captain's "digression" (discretion?), he's absolutely correct, to use the FSB for C/C convenience, not safety reasons, is a digression from what should be acceptable practice.
Are you really saying you find the practice of picking up food off the galley floor and putting it back in dishes etc acceptable? I know that it happens in land restaurants, but does that make it acceptable?
Using perfectly serviceable lavs for stowage, like crew bags that should be in the hold - what if the legal minimum are still available? Is that the customer service target to aim for, the minimum?
Did I say I blamed the C/C for the cleaners? Of course, if I can spot it while in the cabin area during the turnround, why can't they? When it is reported to airline management, not as a complaint about the C/C, but about the cleaning contractor, should they file it in the bin, as happened?
Suggesting the C/C do nothing meant that they do nothing other than what they are forced to do now on that particular subject. As I said, the long term solution is better design and more money spent in this area.
I'm plenty familiar with line ops, thank you.
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Thank you for highlighting the error HJ. Error now corrected.
Thank you also for clarifying your expertise in line ops.
You may think you know line ops but until you fly as crew, you are not privy to the complete story. You are entitled to believe what ever you wish, but observation does not give you the full facts.
I do not want to turn this into a personal issue and I will not.
I have legal authority to tell you to sit down any time I deem it necessary. You as a passenger are required by law to comply. You may not agree with it but it is still the law.
The number of loo’s available for passenger use is not for you to decide. If for the reason’s already discussed we as operating crew put a loo out of service, that’s it I’m afraid. You will have to use another one. You can rest assured that we will and do divert, if the remaining facilities become inadequate.
Thank you also for clarifying your expertise in line ops.
You may think you know line ops but until you fly as crew, you are not privy to the complete story. You are entitled to believe what ever you wish, but observation does not give you the full facts.
I do not want to turn this into a personal issue and I will not.
I have legal authority to tell you to sit down any time I deem it necessary. You as a passenger are required by law to comply. You may not agree with it but it is still the law.
The number of loo’s available for passenger use is not for you to decide. If for the reason’s already discussed we as operating crew put a loo out of service, that’s it I’m afraid. You will have to use another one. You can rest assured that we will and do divert, if the remaining facilities become inadequate.
Last edited by max_cont; 30th Apr 2002 at 18:08.
You may think you know line ops but until you fly as crew, you are not privy to the complete story
I have legal authority to tell you to sit down any time I deem it necessary
The number of loo’s (sic) available for passenger use is not for you to decide
Methinks you doth protest too much on this TV programme. As has been pointed out to you, it might not happen on your flights (I doubt that Captain Bligh experienced it either, possibly for similar reasons), but is has most certainly happened on other flights, perhaps to a lesser degree, or not so recently, as the programme portrayed, but no amount of "outraged and self-righteous" denial will make it go away.
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Hew J, thank you for finally nailing your colours to the mast.
Allow me to help.
The ANO states; Article 67
Every person in an aircraft registered in the UK shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation. (Can only be committed on a UK registered aircraft.)
I am quite happy with my style of leadership and CRM. In the present climate of throwing the flight crew to the wolves if something goes wrong, I like to have a valid reason for bending or breaking a regulation or company SOP. Knowing who makes the final decision when push comes to shove does not make a person autocratic, authoritarian or Captain Bligh.
The fact that I, like a lot of our professional colleagues take the opposite view to that of the tabloid TV trash does not in my opinion equate to outraged self-righteous denial.
Since ITV have made these allegations about the industry, it would seem only fair that they furnish the evidence to support their claims If they provide the evidence (especially about CC flying the A/C) then I would welcome any enquiry into the allegations.
I have re-read all your points and I still disagree. Since it is highly unlikely that you and I will agree on this subject and I don’t want to keep butting heads with you, I shall refrain from further pointless argument.
Allow me to help.
The ANO states; Article 67
Every person in an aircraft registered in the UK shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried therein, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation. (Can only be committed on a UK registered aircraft.)
I am quite happy with my style of leadership and CRM. In the present climate of throwing the flight crew to the wolves if something goes wrong, I like to have a valid reason for bending or breaking a regulation or company SOP. Knowing who makes the final decision when push comes to shove does not make a person autocratic, authoritarian or Captain Bligh.
The fact that I, like a lot of our professional colleagues take the opposite view to that of the tabloid TV trash does not in my opinion equate to outraged self-righteous denial.
Since ITV have made these allegations about the industry, it would seem only fair that they furnish the evidence to support their claims If they provide the evidence (especially about CC flying the A/C) then I would welcome any enquiry into the allegations.
I have re-read all your points and I still disagree. Since it is highly unlikely that you and I will agree on this subject and I don’t want to keep butting heads with you, I shall refrain from further pointless argument.
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Well, max_cont , I can't decide whether you are naive or arrogant... tell you what, let's split the difference and go for inexperienced.
I'd hazard a guess that you have probably only flown for one or two airlines in your (very short) career. It is therefore entirely possible that you haven't seen the things of which we speak, but what I and a few others are trying to explain to you is that we have seen this stuff first hand and, despite your rose-coloured view of the industry, it is far more prevalent than you think.
The pompous way you have responded to us indicates to me that your "style of leadership and CRM" is, to say the least, imperfect and I would imagine that some of the stuff mentioned on the programme happens on your flights- you just don't know about it, and are unlikely to be told by any of the participants for what should be obvious reasons.
To take a few of your recent points:
The point is that the lawful command must be reasonable. This is a common law point.
... except when you start sending self-righteous emails to the perpetrator of the tabloid TV trash in question, and publicising the fact here- particularly when your grasp of the facts seems to be so fatally flawed.
Please try not to be so incredibly naive. That will never happen for obvious reasons, in the same way that C4 didn't get into trouble over their drinking expose. I wonder who has the most to lose by pursuing that inquiry?
Um, you are being naive again... it doesn't. trust me on this. 
I'm not sure how we got sidetracked onto hygiene, that isn't the point at all. What is the point is that some CC will hit back at a difficult pax or colleague in the only way they can- it is simply a very human reaction and is a result of the same conditions that drive restaurant staff to do similar things- namely having to do an often-degrading task for minimal reward, and working very long hours in difficult conditions into the bargain- with little training or supervision in many cases. It is an area that the industry, for all its pre-occupation with CRM and Human Factors, has no intention of addressing because, to quote a senior airline HR figure- "we have girlies queuing up to be CC, they are a disposable commodity" (apologies to the boys). I fundamentally disagree with that viewpoint, before anybody gets the wrong idea!!
There are still plenty of captains out there who will let the CC fly- or do flybys, buzz their houses (Britannia), etc. I've never done it, I would be livid if I saw it- but I know it happens. It is an open secret in our industry. Nobody is ever going to name names, for what should be obvious reasons. The CAA know it goes on, but what can they do without evidence? It's a bit like the C4 drinking expose- nobody would admit that either, until confronted with the evidence- although we all knew it went on (well, except maybe for you).
Anyway, the discussion has probably run its course, I had better quit before I get into trouble!
Oh, and for malteser - please feel free to think whatever you like!!
I'd hazard a guess that you have probably only flown for one or two airlines in your (very short) career. It is therefore entirely possible that you haven't seen the things of which we speak, but what I and a few others are trying to explain to you is that we have seen this stuff first hand and, despite your rose-coloured view of the industry, it is far more prevalent than you think.
The pompous way you have responded to us indicates to me that your "style of leadership and CRM" is, to say the least, imperfect and I would imagine that some of the stuff mentioned on the programme happens on your flights- you just don't know about it, and are unlikely to be told by any of the participants for what should be obvious reasons.
To take a few of your recent points:
Allow me to help.
The ANO states; Article 67
Every person in an aircraft registered in the UK shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft
The ANO states; Article 67
Every person in an aircraft registered in the UK shall obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft
The fact that I, like a lot of our professional colleagues take the opposite view to that of the tabloid TV trash does not in my opinion equate to outraged self-righteous denial.
If they provide the evidence (especially about CC flying the A/C) then I would welcome any enquiry into the allegations.
MOR/password, do try to change the FROM field in your profile. It does rather give the game away.
I'm not sure how we got sidetracked onto hygiene, that isn't the point at all. What is the point is that some CC will hit back at a difficult pax or colleague in the only way they can- it is simply a very human reaction and is a result of the same conditions that drive restaurant staff to do similar things- namely having to do an often-degrading task for minimal reward, and working very long hours in difficult conditions into the bargain- with little training or supervision in many cases. It is an area that the industry, for all its pre-occupation with CRM and Human Factors, has no intention of addressing because, to quote a senior airline HR figure- "we have girlies queuing up to be CC, they are a disposable commodity" (apologies to the boys). I fundamentally disagree with that viewpoint, before anybody gets the wrong idea!!
There are still plenty of captains out there who will let the CC fly- or do flybys, buzz their houses (Britannia), etc. I've never done it, I would be livid if I saw it- but I know it happens. It is an open secret in our industry. Nobody is ever going to name names, for what should be obvious reasons. The CAA know it goes on, but what can they do without evidence? It's a bit like the C4 drinking expose- nobody would admit that either, until confronted with the evidence- although we all knew it went on (well, except maybe for you).
Anyway, the discussion has probably run its course, I had better quit before I get into trouble!
Oh, and for malteser - please feel free to think whatever you like!!
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max_cont - I'm afraid to say that there really is a lot more going on in commercial aviation than you have experienced so far (no I'm not saying you are inexperienced or a baggage loader, etc, just that what you have seen isn't the whole story).
I sat watching the program with my wife (she had 8 years cabin crew experience and I had 10) and did not find anything that we hadn't witnessed. Yes, it stinks but lets not be blinkered here. I flew with the guy who was sacked for gross misconduct and I have to say he really was one of the most disagreable stewards I have ever met and think that his recruitment by 2 major UK airlines shows a real failing by those companies. How on earth a UK long haul airline recruited an overtly boistrous male who had just been fired from another south east UK based airline for gross misconduct without taking up references shows real ineptitude.
This thread has started with a lot of naivity but is thankfully starting to become real due to the input of Hew Jampton et al.
ViP
I sat watching the program with my wife (she had 8 years cabin crew experience and I had 10) and did not find anything that we hadn't witnessed. Yes, it stinks but lets not be blinkered here. I flew with the guy who was sacked for gross misconduct and I have to say he really was one of the most disagreable stewards I have ever met and think that his recruitment by 2 major UK airlines shows a real failing by those companies. How on earth a UK long haul airline recruited an overtly boistrous male who had just been fired from another south east UK based airline for gross misconduct without taking up references shows real ineptitude.
This thread has started with a lot of naivity but is thankfully starting to become real due to the input of Hew Jampton et al.
ViP
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Starting to verge towards the personal for a while there, folks. Luckily it seems to have self-moderated its way back on something close to track.
Remember, play the ball, not the player.
Continue with the debate by all means, but no more personal attacks, we've seen enough of them already and you've all made your points to each other, thank you. If you must continue the extra-curricular slagging-off, then do it by e-mail, otherwise Xenia is going to get medieval, I can feel it....
Remember, play the ball, not the player.
Continue with the debate by all means, but no more personal attacks, we've seen enough of them already and you've all made your points to each other, thank you. If you must continue the extra-curricular slagging-off, then do it by e-mail, otherwise Xenia is going to get medieval, I can feel it....
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Very limited CC experience, less than a year but I certainly remember at least one occasion when the purser/CSD did something quite along the lines mentioned above.
It was a personal revenge so there we go, max_cont those things happened and I am pretty sure they still do.
Why wouldn't they anyway, Humans still go to war...
Forgot to say, I didn't see the programme and feel I haven't missed anything at all.
It was a personal revenge so there we go, max_cont those things happened and I am pretty sure they still do.
Why wouldn't they anyway, Humans still go to war...
Forgot to say, I didn't see the programme and feel I haven't missed anything at all.
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There are still plenty of captains out there who will let the CC fly- or do flybys, buzz their houses (Britannia), etc. I've never done it, I would be livid if I saw it- but I know it happens. It is an open secret in our industry. Nobody is ever going to name names, for what should be obvious reasons. The CAA know it goes on, but what can they do without evidence?
If it's good enough for accident investigation I'm sure it's good enough for a prosecution!
As an aside, I really do not think that there would be a snowballs chance in hell of anybody getting away with that sort of high-jinks today. The chance of it remaining an 'open secret' is unlikely. Someone on the ground or in the air will always be willing to report xxx, and then xxx will lose their job/licence, and quite rightly too. If you want to ****** about like that, then spend some of your hard earned cash and hire an aerobatic aircraft.
We don't get paid to entertain, we get paid to get people safely from A to B.
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Pontious....various mentions have been made on PPrune, airlinecrew.net & Bassa bulletin boards that the participants in this piece of quality TV include former employees of EasyJet, Virgin & Cityflyer......I know one of the guys (who also helped the News Of The World with their infamous article a year or so back) is def a former VS cabin crew member. So please don't tar all of us at BA with the same brush.
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For flybys, there is usually no doubt who the perpetrator was- of course DFDR info has been used as evidence in any case. For Cabin Crew flying, the only way you could prove anything is either to get somebody to admit it (highly unlikely as it would almost certainly be an instant P45 for all involved), or for someone to say something silly over the radio. Any CVR info will be long-gone by the time the aircraft lands.
For DFDR data to be any use, you would have to prove who was manipulating the controls- virtually impossible.
There have been plenty of recent examples of flybys/buzzing houses etc, so that obviously still happens. I happen to know that Cabin Crew flying the plane also happens, but is kept much quieter than in times past- other than that, I agree with MOR/Hew Jampton.
For flybys, there is usually no doubt who the perpetrator was- of course DFDR info has been used as evidence in any case. For Cabin Crew flying, the only way you could prove anything is either to get somebody to admit it (highly unlikely as it would almost certainly be an instant P45 for all involved), or for someone to say something silly over the radio. Any CVR info will be long-gone by the time the aircraft lands.
For DFDR data to be any use, you would have to prove who was manipulating the controls- virtually impossible.
There have been plenty of recent examples of flybys/buzzing houses etc, so that obviously still happens. I happen to know that Cabin Crew flying the plane also happens, but is kept much quieter than in times past- other than that, I agree with MOR/Hew Jampton.