Homophobia towards Cabin Crew
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Well said Stilton,
I was a manager of a well known building at a local airport. Of 16 staff, 4 of us were openly gay (but did not flaunt it and we were each straight acting/looking-so to speak)
I was invited for a drink one night by a a/c loader who turned out to be bi.
One of my staff ended up 'pleasing' not one but two of the straight staff!
No one would believe me, that from ATC to based taxi personel to loaders irrelevent of the fact they are married, they are all at it! Trust me I know...
I was a manager of a well known building at a local airport. Of 16 staff, 4 of us were openly gay (but did not flaunt it and we were each straight acting/looking-so to speak)
I was invited for a drink one night by a a/c loader who turned out to be bi.
One of my staff ended up 'pleasing' not one but two of the straight staff!
No one would believe me, that from ATC to based taxi personel to loaders irrelevent of the fact they are married, they are all at it! Trust me I know...
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EZYA319, you are asking for thoughts.
I remember one captain we had who didnīt want male FAs on the upperdeck because he didnīt want to be served by 'flaming poofters'. The guy was a bullying idiot in many other ways too, and in those days, people got away with that kind of discriminatory cr@p. But weīre talking 1983.
Over the past 20 years of flying, I have never heard any of our gay CC complain about homophobia @ work. Have heard the very occasional homophobic remark, but that was at least 20 years back. Have also seen straight pilots kiss all the female and gay male CC goodbye, while giving their straight colleagues, pilots and CC, a manly handshake.
Off the top of my head, I also know about a fair few pilots who are openly, non-issue, gay. We also had, now retired, a transsexual captain who flew as a bloke and lived as a woman down route.
These days, sexual orientation isnīt an issue among our crews.
I have had occasion to pull up both gay and straight colleagues on overly sexualised and therefore bothersome behaviour. But thatīs a whole different kettle of fish.
Sadly, I also have been on the receiving end of the Gay Mafia in action, not on board but in the office. I donīt care it itīs gays or straits; treating others with disdain because of their sexual orientation is just plain wrong.
But where it is acceptable to state your objection to homophobia, objecting to gay mafia behaviour is fraught with pitfalls.
Canīt speak for other airlines, but in mine, itīs not homophobia that is the thorny issue.
I remember one captain we had who didnīt want male FAs on the upperdeck because he didnīt want to be served by 'flaming poofters'. The guy was a bullying idiot in many other ways too, and in those days, people got away with that kind of discriminatory cr@p. But weīre talking 1983.
Over the past 20 years of flying, I have never heard any of our gay CC complain about homophobia @ work. Have heard the very occasional homophobic remark, but that was at least 20 years back. Have also seen straight pilots kiss all the female and gay male CC goodbye, while giving their straight colleagues, pilots and CC, a manly handshake.
Off the top of my head, I also know about a fair few pilots who are openly, non-issue, gay. We also had, now retired, a transsexual captain who flew as a bloke and lived as a woman down route.
These days, sexual orientation isnīt an issue among our crews.
I have had occasion to pull up both gay and straight colleagues on overly sexualised and therefore bothersome behaviour. But thatīs a whole different kettle of fish.
Sadly, I also have been on the receiving end of the Gay Mafia in action, not on board but in the office. I donīt care it itīs gays or straits; treating others with disdain because of their sexual orientation is just plain wrong.
But where it is acceptable to state your objection to homophobia, objecting to gay mafia behaviour is fraught with pitfalls.
Canīt speak for other airlines, but in mine, itīs not homophobia that is the thorny issue.
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Whilst engaged in your work duties, your sexual orientation should be invisible and irrelevant, if you make it overt, its you that is creating the problem, not the people reacting to your display.
I simply dont get the tendancy for many homosexuals to somehow feel the need to make their sexual orientation an issue for discussion, then complain about anyone making it known they actually arent in agreement with the enforced by regulation acceptance of homosexual behaviour.
In other words, if you just shut up and do your job, you may find nobody cares to actually know your sexual preferances
I simply dont get the tendancy for many homosexuals to somehow feel the need to make their sexual orientation an issue for discussion, then complain about anyone making it known they actually arent in agreement with the enforced by regulation acceptance of homosexual behaviour.
In other words, if you just shut up and do your job, you may find nobody cares to actually know your sexual preferances
Last edited by Lone_Ranger; 13th Jun 2012 at 17:08.
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Lone, I don't know where you work, and maybe it applies there. But where I work, I can not remember a gay person ever making their orientation a subject of discussion. As said, itīs a non-issue among crew members.
Straight male pilots/FAs endlessly badgering female colleagues with tiresome sexual innuendo are more of an 'overt' PIA than our gay colleagues in fact.
Straight male pilots/FAs endlessly badgering female colleagues with tiresome sexual innuendo are more of an 'overt' PIA than our gay colleagues in fact.
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"I simply dont get the tendancy for many homosexuals to somehow feel the need to make their sexual orientation an issue for discussion, then complain about anyone making it known they actually arent in agreement with the enforced by regulation acceptance of homosexual behaviour."
Lone_ranger, may I just ask you how about the various times we hear the straight guys in the galley chatting about the breasts of that fit girl in 12A ? If you lads can chat and make jokes about sexual issues in front of us straight women, why cant the gay boys be open about their sexual orientation?
"Straight male pilots/FAs endlessly badgering female colleagues with tiresome sexual innuendo are more of an 'overt' PIA than our gay colleagues in fact."
Juud, this is so true...I entirely agree with you, here!
Lone_ranger, may I just ask you how about the various times we hear the straight guys in the galley chatting about the breasts of that fit girl in 12A ? If you lads can chat and make jokes about sexual issues in front of us straight women, why cant the gay boys be open about their sexual orientation?
"Straight male pilots/FAs endlessly badgering female colleagues with tiresome sexual innuendo are more of an 'overt' PIA than our gay colleagues in fact."
Juud, this is so true...I entirely agree with you, here!
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As a vacation, long haul pax with BA I don't give a damn. Whether my smiley welcome & glass of champagne is served by a female straight CC member or a male gay CC member makes no difference whatsoever. Equally, when I've flown with obviously mixed crew they have always seemed to me to be working well togther as a team, the sort of behaviour I've come to expect from excellent BA crew.
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.....and why is it called homophobia?, the politicaly correct idiots even manage to twist it so people who disagree with them are labeled as sufferers of an illness...pathetic....
P.S juud, you may not see it being made an issue at your place of work but obviously it happens, the starting of this very thread for instance
P.S juud, you may not see it being made an issue at your place of work but obviously it happens, the starting of this very thread for instance
Last edited by Lone_Ranger; 13th Jun 2012 at 20:35.
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Single outsider experience, but ...
attended a presentation about the job of cabin crew some months ago which was done by a seasoned male CC who was obviously gay, or at least he very convincingly (and seemingly intentionally) gave that impression. Mixed with his obvious experience and professionalism, the performance he gave there was humorous and likeable beyond belief, and the audience were hooked. IMHO in order to object in any way to that guy one would really have to be a miserable sod.
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Unfortunately Lone_Ranger it isn't as simple as you suggest.
My experience of any crew working together and this is the same surely for any unit of staff who work in a 'team' environment, generally chat with each other to bond. This actually dare I suggest is everyday CRM at play.
So when you, as I am sure you must have, asked a colleague whether they have a partner, or anything to do with potentially personal life interests - it can sometimes put that person on the spot. Without the questioner realising it. Even down to the questioner refering to 'she' about a partner they assume the other person has. Yes we all try to tow the politically correct line of never labelling someone as a he or she but we all make mistakes. I have.
So without realising it we all can cause some of our gay colleagues awkward moments. So you may find that these colleagues that make their orientation overt is simply them firstly trying to be honest with you and anyone they work with and secondly to avoid both parties ending up in a awkward moment when one party realises what they may or may perceive to have said, that may have caused offence or a perceived offence.
Some like to bottle it up and continue to lie to your face to avoid embarassment, others will be honest with you. This I feel should be embraced and respected if that is how they deal with it. We are all different.
I agree we do not need to know what goes on behind closed doors - unless you ask, but frankly to me everyday conversation lend themselves to subconciously probing into the other persons personal life.
My experience of any crew working together and this is the same surely for any unit of staff who work in a 'team' environment, generally chat with each other to bond. This actually dare I suggest is everyday CRM at play.
So when you, as I am sure you must have, asked a colleague whether they have a partner, or anything to do with potentially personal life interests - it can sometimes put that person on the spot. Without the questioner realising it. Even down to the questioner refering to 'she' about a partner they assume the other person has. Yes we all try to tow the politically correct line of never labelling someone as a he or she but we all make mistakes. I have.
So without realising it we all can cause some of our gay colleagues awkward moments. So you may find that these colleagues that make their orientation overt is simply them firstly trying to be honest with you and anyone they work with and secondly to avoid both parties ending up in a awkward moment when one party realises what they may or may perceive to have said, that may have caused offence or a perceived offence.
Some like to bottle it up and continue to lie to your face to avoid embarassment, others will be honest with you. This I feel should be embraced and respected if that is how they deal with it. We are all different.
I agree we do not need to know what goes on behind closed doors - unless you ask, but frankly to me everyday conversation lend themselves to subconciously probing into the other persons personal life.
Those who comment on 'overt' crew members are dare i say it, commenting on Campness and flamboyancy. Whilst some 'gays' can lay it on thick, for many they are just naturally camp and for others it is just their personality. To say they are unprofessional is border line homophobic.
Making sexual suggestions is bang out of order but lets face it they are the minority and heterosexuals are just as bad!
Making sexual suggestions is bang out of order but lets face it they are the minority and heterosexuals are just as bad!
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As a gay guy who spends too much of his 'work' time in the back of aircraft, gay CC are just what I need to brighten my day. A cheeky, harmless flirt goes a long way to ease the pain of long journeys.
Thanks guys
Thanks guys
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CaptAirProx, what an excellent post.
The beauty of pprune; making you look at things in a way you had not done previously.
Mild flirtation between people is part of the human make-up. Much enjoyed by many, and unlikely to give offense, as per create_it83īs post.
However, to my mind, campness and flamboyancy do not belong in the workplace. Neither does a continuous stream of hetero sexualised jokes.
Both behaviors, however natural they may come to a person, are outside the professional context of what we are on board for.
As CC we are there to ensure cabin safety and to serve our multi cultural pax in a pleasant and unobtrusive manner.
In-your-face sexuality does not fit within that remit, not for heteros and not for homos. Pointing that out to both straight and gay colleagues on a rare occasion does not make me borderline homophobic easyflyer83.
It rather makes me a person who believes that part of my professional responsibility lies in correcting unsuitable behaviour in the work place. However uncomfortable that may be for me as a person.
The beauty of pprune; making you look at things in a way you had not done previously.
Mild flirtation between people is part of the human make-up. Much enjoyed by many, and unlikely to give offense, as per create_it83īs post.
However, to my mind, campness and flamboyancy do not belong in the workplace. Neither does a continuous stream of hetero sexualised jokes.
Both behaviors, however natural they may come to a person, are outside the professional context of what we are on board for.
As CC we are there to ensure cabin safety and to serve our multi cultural pax in a pleasant and unobtrusive manner.
In-your-face sexuality does not fit within that remit, not for heteros and not for homos. Pointing that out to both straight and gay colleagues on a rare occasion does not make me borderline homophobic easyflyer83.
It rather makes me a person who believes that part of my professional responsibility lies in correcting unsuitable behaviour in the work place. However uncomfortable that may be for me as a person.
Avoid imitations
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Juud, I totally agree. Professional aviation requires an unusual amount of co-operation, by all concerned, for safety reasons, let alone for the customer service aspects of the job.
We all need to be at our best to keep it so. Personal issues of any sort need to be put aside because they can be easily and intensely counter-productive. A happy aircraft is a safe and efficient aircraft.
We all need to be at our best to keep it so. Personal issues of any sort need to be put aside because they can be easily and intensely counter-productive. A happy aircraft is a safe and efficient aircraft.
Many crew members I fly with are naturally camp. They cannot do anything about it. They are effeminate. Do we really believe that that is in your face sexuality? Indeed who is actually making the link between Campness and sexuality? It's not the crew member is it?
I have recently flown with a very effeminate crew member for 3 return trips to the med over as many days. Not once has he made a dirty joke, he's not even flirted or mentioned anything sexual. Yet he's camp as a row of tents. He's polite, good at his job and pax seem to take to him really well. Is he shoving his sexuality in my face? What do you think?
I would argue strongly that it is his personality, not sexuality, they is being displayed. Crew are often selected, in part, for their personality. It might not be to everyone's taste but that is no different to real life. But he does his job well.
I have recently flown with a very effeminate crew member for 3 return trips to the med over as many days. Not once has he made a dirty joke, he's not even flirted or mentioned anything sexual. Yet he's camp as a row of tents. He's polite, good at his job and pax seem to take to him really well. Is he shoving his sexuality in my face? What do you think?
I would argue strongly that it is his personality, not sexuality, they is being displayed. Crew are often selected, in part, for their personality. It might not be to everyone's taste but that is no different to real life. But he does his job well.
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.....and why is it called homophobia?, the politicaly correct idiots even manage to twist it so people who disagree with them are labeled as sufferers of an illness...pathetic....
Incidentally, I don't like the label homophobia either as it's too PC for me. I think we should just call it by its real name, bigotry.
Ciao,
Dg800
Last edited by Dg800; 14th Jun 2012 at 14:57.
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Well that makes two of us LR.
Homosexuals - paedophiles - those who practice bestiality -
are all in the same category to me. Since the last 40 years of
Fabian social engineering has shaped homosexuality as being
a "normal lifestyle" you can bet, and it won't surprise me in
the least, that the latter two will gain equal public "normalcy"
in Western thinking within the next 40. At that point it does
not mean one has to accept whatever the PC fluffist brigades
decide as what's "normal" and what isn't, just as some of us
have continued to ignore them during the last few decades.
Homosexuals - paedophiles - those who practice bestiality -
are all in the same category to me. Since the last 40 years of
Fabian social engineering has shaped homosexuality as being
a "normal lifestyle" you can bet, and it won't surprise me in
the least, that the latter two will gain equal public "normalcy"
in Western thinking within the next 40. At that point it does
not mean one has to accept whatever the PC fluffist brigades
decide as what's "normal" and what isn't, just as some of us
have continued to ignore them during the last few decades.
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I'm curious what would happen if for example a UK airline refused to employ a male cabin crew member, who was gay.
If they stated the reason for the non employment was the fact he was unable to be scheduled across their entire route network. The airline has a duty of care to it's employees and they cannot absolve a crew member from complying with the laws of another country.
If they stated the reason for the non employment was the fact he was unable to be scheduled across their entire route network. The airline has a duty of care to it's employees and they cannot absolve a crew member from complying with the laws of another country.
Incidentally, several of those countries consider any form of extra-marital sex illegal and severely punishable as well. Should people who are (hetero)sexually active and who do not consider extra-marital sex immoral and are therefore known to engage in extra-marital affairs or perhaps even *gasp* adultery be refused employment too on the same grounds? Even if adultery in the UK is not a criminal but at most a civil litigation matter? If that were the case airlines would probably find themselves unable to employ anyone, unless they only fly domestic.
Ciao,
Dg800
Last edited by Dg800; 15th Jun 2012 at 08:29.
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easyflyer I could not agree more with you!
Equally someone mentioned personal life should not come into the workplace. I could not disagree more. Taking flightdeck for example, two crew sat doing very little but monitoring during the cruise, yikes it would be a very dull atmosphere if all we could discuss was work related topics. No wonder us pilots get tarnished as being utterly boring socialisers!!
Even colleagues whom I have no real time for I would still make effort to discuss something beyond work to find a common ground and at least try and build a good working relationship to ensure the job gets done safely with a friendly open atmosphere.
So no, for me doesn't matter who you are, what you are, how you are - be yourself and be proud and let people admire you or hate you for who you are. If they are not professional enough to 'work around that' how would they expect to be 'worked around' themselves. Nobody is perfect and not everyone is the others cup of tea.
Equally someone mentioned personal life should not come into the workplace. I could not disagree more. Taking flightdeck for example, two crew sat doing very little but monitoring during the cruise, yikes it would be a very dull atmosphere if all we could discuss was work related topics. No wonder us pilots get tarnished as being utterly boring socialisers!!
Even colleagues whom I have no real time for I would still make effort to discuss something beyond work to find a common ground and at least try and build a good working relationship to ensure the job gets done safely with a friendly open atmosphere.
So no, for me doesn't matter who you are, what you are, how you are - be yourself and be proud and let people admire you or hate you for who you are. If they are not professional enough to 'work around that' how would they expect to be 'worked around' themselves. Nobody is perfect and not everyone is the others cup of tea.
Last edited by CaptAirProx; 15th Jun 2012 at 10:53.