How is it on BA Mixed Fleet, are you enjoying it?
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Prism: Firstly, sorry for putting something incorrect on here - I understood that it was basically experienced crew that were being recruited: I stand corrected. I'll say it again in bold: sorry. You said:
I guess you have the numbers to hand. What proportion are experienced crew and what proportion have no experience? IAMFI.
Secondly, if I was making a mistake about who in BA was last to leave the aircraft, it was reflective of Count's statement. I was surprised by his attitude suggesting the crew's responsibility was limited once they were on stand. He's one of your colleagues, by the sound of it, not mine. You've already implied he was incorrect - well, it was what he said that rattled my cage.
People have the right to live where they choose, and yes, airlines are better for employing native speakers of the languages of the customers they serve. However, can you not see that it's a bit of a privilege to be able to live a longhaul flight away from where you work? Especially if you are likely to get upgrades. Is this a taxable benefit? Do you do anything to offset your carbon footprint? If I work for a foreign company, I normally expect to live where I work, and at best get holidays back home - not commute. That is considered normal in the real world.
Finally, it's unbecoming to use pompous language if you don't know how to use it properly. I'm pretty sure what you meant was "the fact that somebody hasn't flown before won't prevent them from being successful." Is that correct? And just to point out, this last paragraph is not meant altogether seriously, which is why I am putting this evil smiley here --->
the main crew however are mainly from none airline jobs and for many it is their first time on a aircraft.
Secondly, if I was making a mistake about who in BA was last to leave the aircraft, it was reflective of Count's statement. I was surprised by his attitude suggesting the crew's responsibility was limited once they were on stand. He's one of your colleagues, by the sound of it, not mine. You've already implied he was incorrect - well, it was what he said that rattled my cage.
People have the right to live where they choose, and yes, airlines are better for employing native speakers of the languages of the customers they serve. However, can you not see that it's a bit of a privilege to be able to live a longhaul flight away from where you work? Especially if you are likely to get upgrades. Is this a taxable benefit? Do you do anything to offset your carbon footprint? If I work for a foreign company, I normally expect to live where I work, and at best get holidays back home - not commute. That is considered normal in the real world.
Finally, it's unbecoming to use pompous language if you don't know how to use it properly. I'm pretty sure what you meant was "the fact that somebody hasn't flown before won't prevent them from being successful." Is that correct? And just to point out, this last paragraph is not meant altogether seriously, which is why I am putting this evil smiley here --->
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No problem Young Paul. I have just re read the thread and Count's statement was inaccurate and can understand why people were misled. Normal practice is for the CSD and one of the Pilots to be the last to leave the aircraft and walk with the Passenger Agent to the top of the air bridge and the door is closed behind them. This trial is being interpreted as BA reducing the need for ground staff to meet the aircraft but it isn't. A typical arrival for longhaul would see 6 or 7 WCHR's being required a couple of UM's and several MAAS; so there will always be a need for ground agents to meet the aircraft out of BA's Duty of Care to our customers.
You raise a very good point about the 'green issues' of commuting. Worldwide crew that commute in general are however part-time and have long blocks of time off after their run of trips, staying with family and friends during their working block. Perhaps 2 flights per month as opposed to 20 trips round the M25 - I dont know how that compares. Similarly many of our pilot colleagues try and consolidate their flying work into a few weeks so they can have a large chunk of time at home overseas and for many ensure it helps with child care and their wifes/partners part-time block. You can see why the 'staff travel' issue was so sensitive during the IA as people were having to pay normal ticket prices to get to and from work. I do however take your point about carbon foot printing. Upgrades are sadly a thing of the past and CSD's risk their jobs now if they do not have commercial reasons for upgrading. CSD's have the authority to upgrade for commercial / customer issues and the Captain is the only one who can authorise an upgrade outside of this.
As I said we as a Company recruited overseas to get the professional customer service language speakers most with university degrees and marketed ourselves accordingly. Naturally they want to live in their own country's where their families are. Having lived in the UK and also commuted I can honestly say I am more rested pre flight commuting in rather than having sat in traffic on the M25 for several hours.
There are also some new MF crew who are hoping to do the same once they master the bid and are eligable for staff travel.
You raise a very good point about the 'green issues' of commuting. Worldwide crew that commute in general are however part-time and have long blocks of time off after their run of trips, staying with family and friends during their working block. Perhaps 2 flights per month as opposed to 20 trips round the M25 - I dont know how that compares. Similarly many of our pilot colleagues try and consolidate their flying work into a few weeks so they can have a large chunk of time at home overseas and for many ensure it helps with child care and their wifes/partners part-time block. You can see why the 'staff travel' issue was so sensitive during the IA as people were having to pay normal ticket prices to get to and from work. I do however take your point about carbon foot printing. Upgrades are sadly a thing of the past and CSD's risk their jobs now if they do not have commercial reasons for upgrading. CSD's have the authority to upgrade for commercial / customer issues and the Captain is the only one who can authorise an upgrade outside of this.
As I said we as a Company recruited overseas to get the professional customer service language speakers most with university degrees and marketed ourselves accordingly. Naturally they want to live in their own country's where their families are. Having lived in the UK and also commuted I can honestly say I am more rested pre flight commuting in rather than having sat in traffic on the M25 for several hours.
There are also some new MF crew who are hoping to do the same once they master the bid and are eligable for staff travel.
Last edited by prism; 4th Jun 2011 at 14:09.
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At the end of the day you still have to have 9 Days off per month and if you place those wisely you can have higher achievement rates. I was talking to one of the senior managers about the bid and the trouble is surrounding expectation. Most people are bidding for weekends off and that simply means that more people are being disappointed. If you are quite open about destinations and go for the days off as your priority you may achieve a greater %. Yes NBO, LUD and when it comes across ACC do not negate time off there is nothing stopping you bidding for 2 days off or utilising leave days. You say you did a DEN had a day off and then did another DEN. The present Worldwide crew do two such flights without a day off called a Back to Back so we will fly to say Chicago nightstop fly back to Heathrow nightstop, fly to Montreal night stop and then back to Heathrow. Worldwide crew do that without a day off in the middle. Our pilot colleagues also create their own Back to Backs without a day off in between so that they can achieve a greater number of days off in one go later in the month.
Some people are achieving what they want with their CARMEN bids and able to commiute from far afield.
Some people are achieving what they want with their CARMEN bids and able to commiute from far afield.
Last edited by prism; 6th Jun 2011 at 09:47.
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You must be a very experienced CSD Prism. You seem to know so much.
However you do not know apparently how many cabin crew there are on a BA 747. It is 14 not 15 as per your post....
"flight B747 a team of 15 cabin crew and 3 pilots only 2 lived in the UK so it was a mass run for departures".
Also Prism, MF crews may be able to commute if they get enough days off, but not inbetween every trip as current WW crew can do. What good is that? Where do MF crew go for the nights inbetween trips?
It is also NOT normal practice for the CSD and one of the pilots to be the last off. Frequently we Flight Crew disembark WITH the passengers. CSD's usually lead their crews off the plane and do not hang around.
However you do not know apparently how many cabin crew there are on a BA 747. It is 14 not 15 as per your post....
"flight B747 a team of 15 cabin crew and 3 pilots only 2 lived in the UK so it was a mass run for departures".
Also Prism, MF crews may be able to commute if they get enough days off, but not inbetween every trip as current WW crew can do. What good is that? Where do MF crew go for the nights inbetween trips?
It is also NOT normal practice for the CSD and one of the pilots to be the last off. Frequently we Flight Crew disembark WITH the passengers. CSD's usually lead their crews off the plane and do not hang around.
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Correct count. Those days have now long gone. It was a typo. The point was that only 2 lived in the UK.
Count it is custom and practice for most CSD's to leave the aircraft last with the pilots. Usually we are collecting the hours data to complete the duty record form and overtime sheet if necessary. Once the aircraft is confirmed clear of customers then it is our job as CSD's to confirm to the Captain that the aircraft is clear.
In between trips some commuters stay at the guest houses around the airport and there is nothing stopping any crew member be they eurofleet, mixed fleet or worlwide to stop them booking. MF crew have 9 days to place where they will in their bid.
This thread is however supposed to be about seeing how MF crew are getting on on the fleet. Clearly one of the big issues is 'BIDDING'.
Count it is custom and practice for most CSD's to leave the aircraft last with the pilots. Usually we are collecting the hours data to complete the duty record form and overtime sheet if necessary. Once the aircraft is confirmed clear of customers then it is our job as CSD's to confirm to the Captain that the aircraft is clear.
In between trips some commuters stay at the guest houses around the airport and there is nothing stopping any crew member be they eurofleet, mixed fleet or worlwide to stop them booking. MF crew have 9 days to place where they will in their bid.
This thread is however supposed to be about seeing how MF crew are getting on on the fleet. Clearly one of the big issues is 'BIDDING'.
Last edited by prism; 6th Jun 2011 at 15:39.
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Lets hear about it from Mixed Fleet crew then not people from other fleets!!
The only person posting on hear that actually knows what it is like is Maudie!
Lets listen to what actual M/F crew have to say and not patronise them by saying they don't know how to bid, especially two people that don't bid and who both work on Worldwide, one who says they are a pilot! and one that says they are a CSD. No cabin crew bid on Worldwide.
I have had a look at how Maudie bid last month and it was a well constructed bid. There are many crew on Mixed Fleet that have had unsuccessful bids and this happens on E/F too, some months you get everything you ask for and other months are not so good, even though the bid was identical. This I think is because we all move around the bid system but we are unaware of whether we are at the top or the bottom of the pile!!
Hopefully Maudie you will get some more successful bids in the future.
Good luck.
The only person posting on hear that actually knows what it is like is Maudie!
Lets listen to what actual M/F crew have to say and not patronise them by saying they don't know how to bid, especially two people that don't bid and who both work on Worldwide, one who says they are a pilot! and one that says they are a CSD. No cabin crew bid on Worldwide.
I have had a look at how Maudie bid last month and it was a well constructed bid. There are many crew on Mixed Fleet that have had unsuccessful bids and this happens on E/F too, some months you get everything you ask for and other months are not so good, even though the bid was identical. This I think is because we all move around the bid system but we are unaware of whether we are at the top or the bottom of the pile!!
Hopefully Maudie you will get some more successful bids in the future.
Good luck.
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At the end of the day you still have to have 9 Days off per month and if you place those wisely you can have higher achievement rates. I was talking to one of the senior managers about the bid and the trouble is surrounding expectation. Most people are bidding for weekends off and that simply means that more people are being disappointed. If you are quite open about destinations and go for the days off as your priority you may achieve a greater %.
there is nothing stopping you bidding for 2 days off or utilising leave days.
The present Worldwide crew do two such flights without a day off called a Back to Back so we will fly to say Chicago nightstop fly back to Heathrow nightstop, fly to Montreal night stop and then back to Heathrow. Worldwide crew do that without a day off in the middle.
At the end of the day, you have to remember that Scheduling construct MF rosters primarily based on scheme, not industrial agreements.
The basic thing to remember about MF though, is that its main purpose was to cut costs dramatically. This it has done, and is doing; but it has come at a cost...
Last edited by Smell the Coffee; 6th Jun 2011 at 22:03.
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Hi i'm mixed fleet crew and I don't seem to have a problem with the bidding system. What I do is literally bid for sectors / days in trip and mark that has highest priority. I only make 1 bid and make it a recurring bid and so far my roster has been pretty nice to me (may be lucky LOL) but my roster works out pretty much, 4 days on, 2 off, 3 days on 1 off, few standby's thrown in.
After SAN & ATL I have 2 days off rostered.
What I have found with my colleagues, if they make there bids too specific, the majority of them don't get what they bid for.
In regard you Young Paul's question, On my course there were 9 ex flyers including myself (3 BA Worldwide), Emirates, Qatar, Gulf, Thomson, Ryanair & Easyjet and 9 non flyers which included a bank manager, mortgage advisor, Check in Supervisor ect ect and 2 of us have been trainers previously, Online I've found the mix is probably about the same.
Hope that makes sense,
Have a great day
BR
After SAN & ATL I have 2 days off rostered.
What I have found with my colleagues, if they make there bids too specific, the majority of them don't get what they bid for.
In regard you Young Paul's question, On my course there were 9 ex flyers including myself (3 BA Worldwide), Emirates, Qatar, Gulf, Thomson, Ryanair & Easyjet and 9 non flyers which included a bank manager, mortgage advisor, Check in Supervisor ect ect and 2 of us have been trainers previously, Online I've found the mix is probably about the same.
Hope that makes sense,
Have a great day
BR
Last edited by brighton_rocks; 8th Jun 2011 at 15:29.
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Mixed Fleet Salary Review
Hi... can anyone tell me if and when the salary review is going to be announced regarding the Mixed Fleet. It had been reported that a review into salaries and lifestyles(rosters), was being researched these past few weeks. Anyway, it has all gone very quiet... does anyone know anything? I cant help but think the MF Cabin Crew are hanging on with bated breath for news.
Thanks a mill...
Thanks a mill...
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There was a message out about 5 weeks ago, stating that an external source was reviewing to see if MF rates are indeed market rate + 10% and will be a few more weeks till this is released. IF they are found to be below market rate then any pay increase would be back dated to April 11. An day off has been added after a Vegas, due to crew feedback, but I have no knowledge of rostering being looked at. Hope that helps 
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Hi everyone
Just thought I should take a moment to explain how Carmen works and why you don't always achieve the same results even though you bid for the same things. Once Carmen starts running through the bid it looks at everyones bid and then makes lots of different bid runs based on your preference. Lets say for example that it runs 20 times, all of those rosters would contain some element of your preference but at the end it has to select the run that gets everyone closest to the target (Eurofleet is 65%, don't know about MF). So, even though bid run 5 may contain your dream roster, it may decide on run 11 because that has the best overall spread for everyone on the fleet. The more things you bid for, the bigger the variation possible in the bid runs and conversely if you only make one bid, then all the bid runs would have to contain that request. So if one day off is really important, then just bid for that one and leave the others to chance! If one destination is important, then only ask for that one! Ask for 5 trips and be prepared to get any 3 of them (but it may be the bottom 3). Hope that explains the system. It's not great but it is better than nothing in terms of having some control of your life! Happy to help with individual queries if you want to pm me!
Happy bidding
Ottergirl
Just thought I should take a moment to explain how Carmen works and why you don't always achieve the same results even though you bid for the same things. Once Carmen starts running through the bid it looks at everyones bid and then makes lots of different bid runs based on your preference. Lets say for example that it runs 20 times, all of those rosters would contain some element of your preference but at the end it has to select the run that gets everyone closest to the target (Eurofleet is 65%, don't know about MF). So, even though bid run 5 may contain your dream roster, it may decide on run 11 because that has the best overall spread for everyone on the fleet. The more things you bid for, the bigger the variation possible in the bid runs and conversely if you only make one bid, then all the bid runs would have to contain that request. So if one day off is really important, then just bid for that one and leave the others to chance! If one destination is important, then only ask for that one! Ask for 5 trips and be prepared to get any 3 of them (but it may be the bottom 3). Hope that explains the system. It's not great but it is better than nothing in terms of having some control of your life! Happy to help with individual queries if you want to pm me!
Happy bidding
Ottergirl
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But be careful because if you only bid for one thing and it is something very popular! and you end up not getting it; because the computer can't see any other preferences, you could end up with lots of things that you wouldn't want.
I always put a few very low points generic choices at the bottom of my bid, so that if I have been unsuccessful with my main preferences, there are at least a few things that the computer can see that I wouldn't mind, i.e. 50 points any three day 2 sector trips and 10 points for any 3 day 2-8 sector trips, as a kind of an insurance policy!
My advice would be to make sure there is a large gap between your most wanted trips with a bid of 200 each, and then some second choices, of say 50 or even just 10 points. Also if you want a variety of different destinations, make sure you put 1 in the frequency box. So for example you could put in three or four trips, asking for each just once and give them all 200 points. Then make sure that you bid for your days off in groups of two, spread evenly across the month. That way you wont end up doing a tiring group of trips with just one day off after it.
If you bid for things in a way that makes it easier for the computer to roster you, then your bids will be more successful.
The trouble is that we all bid differently and you could ask ten different people how to bid and they will all say different things. Some crew put in very simple bids with just generic choices of trip length and sectors and some put in very detailed bids that are pages long. It is just up to you to try out different ways and see what is successful for you.
Hope that helps some of you.
I always put a few very low points generic choices at the bottom of my bid, so that if I have been unsuccessful with my main preferences, there are at least a few things that the computer can see that I wouldn't mind, i.e. 50 points any three day 2 sector trips and 10 points for any 3 day 2-8 sector trips, as a kind of an insurance policy!
My advice would be to make sure there is a large gap between your most wanted trips with a bid of 200 each, and then some second choices, of say 50 or even just 10 points. Also if you want a variety of different destinations, make sure you put 1 in the frequency box. So for example you could put in three or four trips, asking for each just once and give them all 200 points. Then make sure that you bid for your days off in groups of two, spread evenly across the month. That way you wont end up doing a tiring group of trips with just one day off after it.
If you bid for things in a way that makes it easier for the computer to roster you, then your bids will be more successful.
The trouble is that we all bid differently and you could ask ten different people how to bid and they will all say different things. Some crew put in very simple bids with just generic choices of trip length and sectors and some put in very detailed bids that are pages long. It is just up to you to try out different ways and see what is successful for you.
Hope that helps some of you.
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With regard to money, initial reactions were generally "too little". The stated aim of the company is market rate plus 10%: at the moment, even with rise, people feel (rightly or wrongly - though my contacts have a lot of friends throughout the industry) that it's nearer market rate minus 10%. The company was slow to act (they started talking about an announcement about this in March, I believe) and rumours had gained ground that the settlement was going to be substantially more, so people's initial reaction was disappointed, unless (basically) they are living in accommodation paid for by someone else within reach of LHR.
Last edited by Young Paul; 22nd Jun 2011 at 10:54.
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YP is essentially correct, the reactions I have observed are ones of disappointment with the level of the raise (to be fair, one could also argue that the expectations were perhaps a little fanciful given Mixed Fleet's raison d'etre, which has little to do with customer service and a lot to do with making huge savings).
On another note, Mixed Fleet crew recently operated a flight to Japan with no bunks. It was legal (crew rest can be taken on suitable reclining seats). Despite protestations from the operating CSM and Captain, the crew were basically told "tough".
It's not hard to see why some MF crew are becoming a little disillusioned with pay, and the Company's attitude/treatment of said crew.
On another note, Mixed Fleet crew recently operated a flight to Japan with no bunks. It was legal (crew rest can be taken on suitable reclining seats). Despite protestations from the operating CSM and Captain, the crew were basically told "tough".
It's not hard to see why some MF crew are becoming a little disillusioned with pay, and the Company's attitude/treatment of said crew.
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Smell the coffee,
That is quite shocking!
Are you still enjoying it?
I have read the recent improvement in the FTC passage to CSM and feel that in the future, again, some will end up being let down a bit.
It now sets out a clear path to CSM in a year and basically says that if you follow the process and are happy, you will automatically get CSM in one year. It goes on to invite more crew from ALL fleets, WW, E/F, SFG and M/F to apply.
Unless BA have been lying to everyone about how fast Mixed Fleet will grow, not every FTC crew member will be able to be promoted within a year. Maybe the first batch but ALL future FTC!! It does at the very end mention that CSM positions need to be available but by mentioning the one year target, I feel they will be letting down a lot of people that take up this chance or they are going to expand faster than they have previously said! but whatever happens, eventually some FTC will end up waiting a lot longer than a year!
There must be two or three FTC for every CSM that are currently flying, so to give just, all of the current FTC, CSM, the fleet would need to grow 3x or 4x the size it is now! and for more to be invited to get FTC with the promise of a year target to CSM, the fleet would then need to grow to over 12 x or more, what it currently is!! The maths just don't add up, if that target of a year is to be believed!
That is quite shocking!
Are you still enjoying it?
I have read the recent improvement in the FTC passage to CSM and feel that in the future, again, some will end up being let down a bit.
It now sets out a clear path to CSM in a year and basically says that if you follow the process and are happy, you will automatically get CSM in one year. It goes on to invite more crew from ALL fleets, WW, E/F, SFG and M/F to apply.
Unless BA have been lying to everyone about how fast Mixed Fleet will grow, not every FTC crew member will be able to be promoted within a year. Maybe the first batch but ALL future FTC!! It does at the very end mention that CSM positions need to be available but by mentioning the one year target, I feel they will be letting down a lot of people that take up this chance or they are going to expand faster than they have previously said! but whatever happens, eventually some FTC will end up waiting a lot longer than a year!
There must be two or three FTC for every CSM that are currently flying, so to give just, all of the current FTC, CSM, the fleet would need to grow 3x or 4x the size it is now! and for more to be invited to get FTC with the promise of a year target to CSM, the fleet would then need to grow to over 12 x or more, what it currently is!! The maths just don't add up, if that target of a year is to be believed!