BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Union representation for MF is clearly an issue that BASSA either can't or won't get it's head round.
When BA stated that they wanted a separate negotiating body for mixed fleet they were saying they wanted MF to be represented by MF crew who would negotiate terms and conditions for themselves, not existing WW CSD's who make up the majority of BASSA rep numbers.
If MF crew decide they want union representation there is nothing BA can legally do to stop them. All they need is sufficient numbers to join. They could choose to join BASSA or the PCCC or even the 'Magic New Fleet Happy Crew Smiley Club'. As long as enough of them joined the company would need to recognise the union (regardless of whether or not it has the word 'union' in it's title...).
Arguing the the whole point of MF is for it to be non-union crew really is a waste of time. UK law does not permit employers to do this.
When BA stated that they wanted a separate negotiating body for mixed fleet they were saying they wanted MF to be represented by MF crew who would negotiate terms and conditions for themselves, not existing WW CSD's who make up the majority of BASSA rep numbers.
If MF crew decide they want union representation there is nothing BA can legally do to stop them. All they need is sufficient numbers to join. They could choose to join BASSA or the PCCC or even the 'Magic New Fleet Happy Crew Smiley Club'. As long as enough of them joined the company would need to recognise the union (regardless of whether or not it has the word 'union' in it's title...).
Arguing the the whole point of MF is for it to be non-union crew really is a waste of time. UK law does not permit employers to do this.
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point. BA intends to make 3,000 redundancies through setting up the new MF of cabin crew.
Those of you who have signed new contracts will be Fast Tracked off of the 1948 Redeployment Agreement.
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BlueUpGood.
The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs. Unless the first group wish to raise the second groups t&cs to their level - which will not happen at BA because it would negate the need for mixed fleet, and defeat the object of mixed fleet.
If PCCC is to undertake collective bargainig rights for mixed fleet, then it will need identifiable mixed fleet reps for BA to converse with, likewise for a hugely expanded PCCC on legacy fleets. Come negotiation time BA will not discuss issues on an online annoymous forum with fourty percentage worth of differing views. That defeats the object of collective bargainig. To be credible the PCCC needs to be identifiable and accountable.
The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs. Unless the first group wish to raise the second groups t&cs to their level - which will not happen at BA because it would negate the need for mixed fleet, and defeat the object of mixed fleet.
If PCCC is to undertake collective bargainig rights for mixed fleet, then it will need identifiable mixed fleet reps for BA to converse with, likewise for a hugely expanded PCCC on legacy fleets. Come negotiation time BA will not discuss issues on an online annoymous forum with fourty percentage worth of differing views. That defeats the object of collective bargainig. To be credible the PCCC needs to be identifiable and accountable.
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And it will be, but it doesn't have to be right now. BASSA (old contract) have been negotiating for new contract LHR and LGW for years, with no realistic intent of achieving old contract levels for any of them. Trying to claim the PCCC can't represent new fleet because of some sort of moral difficulty is baloney.
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PC767
IMHO The PCCC would be very well advised to keep things relatively low key until the dispute is over. Why do you think BASSA are trying to goad them into going public?
When this dispute is well and truly over, then the PCCC will know the landscape of future industrial relations, and will be best able to maximise on the catastrophic self destruction BASSA has wrought upon itself. This is a long game, and the PCCC already seem to have a sense of perspective that BASSA don't.
It's not about today, or tomorrow, but about cabin crew being represented by intelligent realists, who live and work in the real world, and who can work with the people who pay our wages for the mutual benefit of both company and employee. It's a symbiotic relationship - without BA there is no cabin crew, something BASSA are hell bent on disproving, despite Mr Darwin's best efforts.
They may succeed and seize the moment, they may not. I sincerely hope they do.
All IMHO.
When this dispute is well and truly over, then the PCCC will know the landscape of future industrial relations, and will be best able to maximise on the catastrophic self destruction BASSA has wrought upon itself. This is a long game, and the PCCC already seem to have a sense of perspective that BASSA don't.
It's not about today, or tomorrow, but about cabin crew being represented by intelligent realists, who live and work in the real world, and who can work with the people who pay our wages for the mutual benefit of both company and employee. It's a symbiotic relationship - without BA there is no cabin crew, something BASSA are hell bent on disproving, despite Mr Darwin's best efforts.
They may succeed and seize the moment, they may not. I sincerely hope they do.
All IMHO.
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PC767
The point is that it is hypocritical for one group of employees who enjoy a certain standard of t&cs to negotiate t&cs for another group of employees on lesser t&cs.
So, would any of the BASSA adherents here like to tell the public at large if their committee has received any ..... [cough] ..... legal 'information' in the last few days which has given them cause to ......[cough, cough] ..... perhaps seriously rethink their position? Just wondering .................. 
Bit confused by the references to BATUC negotiating the Redeployment agreement.
BATUC (British Airways Trade Union Council) isn't a negotiating body. It is a talking shop. The BA board including Willie give a report back to representatives from all departments on BA on the current state of the business etc.
The TU's raise concerns directly to them in return but they do not negotate anything.
The Forum which consists of Full Time Officers of the unions were talking to BA re the Redeployment Agreement but I dont think it being discussed at this time.
BATUC (British Airways Trade Union Council) isn't a negotiating body. It is a talking shop. The BA board including Willie give a report back to representatives from all departments on BA on the current state of the business etc.
The TU's raise concerns directly to them in return but they do not negotate anything.
The Forum which consists of Full Time Officers of the unions were talking to BA re the Redeployment Agreement but I dont think it being discussed at this time.
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Yellow pen.
Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy.
BlueUpGood.
The PCCC, if they are to be taken as credible should be visibly shaping the industrial relations landscape, not lurking like looters after a battle. Perhaps you know something about the PCCC founders that I do not, I do not know who the hell they are so I cannot comment on whether they are intelligent realists or not. They could be a bunch of egotistical glory chasers for all I, and the vast majority know.
PCCC, show yourselves, make your point and let us see if you are worth joining or not. I suspect the truth is that you are not worth joining, I suspect the truth is disappointing.
Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy.
BlueUpGood.
The PCCC, if they are to be taken as credible should be visibly shaping the industrial relations landscape, not lurking like looters after a battle. Perhaps you know something about the PCCC founders that I do not, I do not know who the hell they are so I cannot comment on whether they are intelligent realists or not. They could be a bunch of egotistical glory chasers for all I, and the vast majority know.
PCCC, show yourselves, make your point and let us see if you are worth joining or not. I suspect the truth is that you are not worth joining, I suspect the truth is disappointing.
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Abbey Rd,
I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid.
I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted. Quite obviously BA play every legal card they can at every opportunity. Bassa are perhaps being cautious of BA's responce to any announcement.
Therefore the answer you seek will come from the bassa leadership when they have what they require. Perhaps you should email them.
I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid.
I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted. Quite obviously BA play every legal card they can at every opportunity. Bassa are perhaps being cautious of BA's responce to any announcement.
Therefore the answer you seek will come from the bassa leadership when they have what they require. Perhaps you should email them.
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PC 767
If that line of argument was true, then as no one from BASSA is MF then should they negotiate on behalf of MF that would be hypocrisy!!!
More importantly as DH is no longer an employee of BA how can he have any legitimate input into any negotiation/discussion relating to current employees?
Jazzy
If that line of argument was true, then as no one from BASSA is MF then should they negotiate on behalf of MF that would be hypocrisy!!!
More importantly as DH is no longer an employee of BA how can he have any legitimate input into any negotiation/discussion relating to current employees?
Jazzy
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Originally Posted by BASSAwitch
I can assure you that the bassa branch accounts are far from clean.
The branch sec runs it like his own personal fiefdom.
I'm sure the Daily Mail has the story ready to print
The branch sec runs it like his own personal fiefdom.
I'm sure the Daily Mail has the story ready to print
Could you please back up this statement issued by you earlier?
Bassa negotiated for t&cs which directly affect them and those they represent. The PCCC on legacy fleets negotiating t&cs for mixed fleet is very different - it doesn't affect them, hence hypocrisy.
I'm not a bassa adherent, but I would suggest your question is pointless if not stupid.
Methinks that Abbey Road has a little inside info to share!
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Whatever Abbey Road is hinting at may explain why there has been absolutely no communication or action from BASSA so far, 12 days into the 28 day period. Surely they can't have totally screwed it up again?
edited to say "silly me, of course they could have!"
Why is there no smiley rolling around laughing?
Now there is, thanks to green granite!
edited to say "silly me, of course they could have!"
I would imagine the bassa leadership are ensuring that the 't' and the 'i' are crossed and dotted.
Why is there no smiley rolling around laughing?Now there is, thanks to green granite!
Last edited by ottergirl; 1st Feb 2011 at 19:16.
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The Bassa V LGW debate has been done before. To recap, bassa suggested a no vote, LGW crew voted in favour of SFG.
BA committed to closing the regions, cabin crew, pilots, engineers, managers, ground staff et al. Bassa cannot be responsible for the closure, what they did do though was negotiate the best package possible for cabin crew to re-locate.
As far as I am bassa are not negotiating for mixed fleet so that point is also irrelevant.
I will repeat my consideration, and it is only that, in another way. Would I want somebody from mixed fleet to be negotiating my t&cs on 'legacy' fleet, t&cs which will not affect them. No.
BA committed to closing the regions, cabin crew, pilots, engineers, managers, ground staff et al. Bassa cannot be responsible for the closure, what they did do though was negotiate the best package possible for cabin crew to re-locate.
As far as I am bassa are not negotiating for mixed fleet so that point is also irrelevant.
I will repeat my consideration, and it is only that, in another way. Would I want somebody from mixed fleet to be negotiating my t&cs on 'legacy' fleet, t&cs which will not affect them. No.
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What is wrong with my comment ottergirl. From either side of the fence we know that bassa leadership have cocked up before. Just perhaps they are determined not to make the same mistakes repeatedly.