British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Poor Slidebustle, you just got caught in the crossfire. I most assuredly did not mean you, if a Cabin crew thread is to be worth a damn then it needs cabin crew to contribute. I welcome your input whatever camp you are in (and it appears to be the same one I am in). I was trying to calm A Lurker down a bit, sounded like he had been tipped over the edge.
I am genuinely sad that CF is not somewhere we could all meet and chat over our different ideas as some of these discussions would be better off not in the public domain. Its a bit like inviting our customers to join us in the hotel bar down-route! Insanity! Rather like the Channel 4 documentary if you remember that!
I feel the need to point out that these are all my own views not that of my employer!
I am genuinely sad that CF is not somewhere we could all meet and chat over our different ideas as some of these discussions would be better off not in the public domain. Its a bit like inviting our customers to join us in the hotel bar down-route! Insanity! Rather like the Channel 4 documentary if you remember that!
I feel the need to point out that these are all my own views not that of my employer!
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Lurker - thanks for your response, to be honest I do have to agree that there is an element on this tread that does tend to shoot at any pro IA posters (even though I feel that that IA is the wrong approach). Whilst I dont agree with your position I stand 100% behind you with having the right to that opinion.
Now thats out of the way perhaps you would like to address the second part of my post? Sorry but selective cutting and pasting of posts doesnt work for me - avoiding the difficult part of questions is not part of adult debate m8!
btw I am ex BA crew, feel that is a superb airline and think the majority of crew still offer an excellent product to their customers and want to be a continuing customer of them
Now thats out of the way perhaps you would like to address the second part of my post? Sorry but selective cutting and pasting of posts doesnt work for me - avoiding the difficult part of questions is not part of adult debate m8!
btw I am ex BA crew, feel that is a superb airline and think the majority of crew still offer an excellent product to their customers and want to be a continuing customer of them
Last edited by cym; 26th Jan 2010 at 22:23. Reason: typo
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Sorry, but I'm upset. I need strong leadership. And I personally feel my elected representatives provide this, whether you agree or disagree.
I've read this thread since day one too, and I've changed my opinion of cabin crew. I used to feel that they were all overpaid primadonnas who didn't know the meaning of hard work and would throw a hissy fit over things that anyone else would just take in their stride.
I'm pleased to learn that I was wrong. There are an awful lot of good and conscientious people in the cabin crew community. It's just unfortunate that thus far their voices have been drowned out by the few who give them all a bad name.
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Ottergirl ah that's ok, got'cha! 
You are right, it is a shame that the CF or even the BASSA forum couldn't be a place where we can discuss this with different views and ideas without being regarded as a ''manager, a pilot, a crew member sleeping with a manager, a crew member sleeping with a pilot or even a crew member possessed by the demon of Willie Walsh.''
Sometimes I will admit not to feel comfortable posting in the public domain as anyone can view this.
Just want to add that I don't object to our customers, or pilots contributing to this thread as you are affected and many of you post very good ideas, it's just sometimes its nice to just be able to have a private convo with other crew. And of course there have been in this thread some anti-cabin crew comments in general which are very disrespectful and have no place but it is just certain individuals not all of you. Most of you do have valid input. You know who you are, if you are in the latter camp - keep posting
Shame CF/BASSA you just cannot dream of posting a contraversion thinking outside the box type reply!
You are right, it is a shame that the CF or even the BASSA forum couldn't be a place where we can discuss this with different views and ideas without being regarded as a ''manager, a pilot, a crew member sleeping with a manager, a crew member sleeping with a pilot or even a crew member possessed by the demon of Willie Walsh.''
Sometimes I will admit not to feel comfortable posting in the public domain as anyone can view this.Just want to add that I don't object to our customers, or pilots contributing to this thread as you are affected and many of you post very good ideas, it's just sometimes its nice to just be able to have a private convo with other crew. And of course there have been in this thread some anti-cabin crew comments in general which are very disrespectful and have no place but it is just certain individuals not all of you. Most of you do have valid input. You know who you are, if you are in the latter camp - keep posting
Shame CF/BASSA you just cannot dream of posting a contraversion thinking outside the box type reply!
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Can't quite help feeling the tables are turning BA has turned to a big desperation stage of our little chess game even heard about a Wailing Wall at Waterworld where you can leave a message before popping off to Waitrose. Oh and before i go another big problem the pension scheme seems to be a problem which will have a greater impact on some more than others. Remember don't have nightmares.
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In answer to your question "What's in it for me?":
This brave group might just succeed in showing Willie Walsh and Bill Francis that not ALL cabin crew are taken in by BASSA's imbacillic nonsense.
They might convince them that it is possible to have an intelligent, informed and constructive conversation with a group of cabin crew - an approach that might just mean, Mr Lurker, that you and I (because I am crew too) can actually pretty much keep our income and lifestyle broadly as it is......
....something BASSA's strike will put at very serious risk.
You really do, at this crucial stage, need to start being a little more questioning of everything BASSA states, because much of it, on only mildly close examination is totally nonsensical. For example:
"New Fleet will mean that soon you'll all be sitting at work with no work" (Shortly after New Fleet was proposed, they claimed this)
Really?!! I'm a senior CSD and I'll be allowed to sit at home getting paid my (fairly significant) basic salary (plus now, of course my guaranteed monthly variable payment)............and do no work for it.
Honestly? Really? Yes? You sure? ......Erm, ok then where do I sign. No, give me the pen!! Give me the pen ! No, give it to me, GIVE IT TO ME!
Hmmm. Yeah, nice thought, but not really going to happen.
"New Fleet will mean that you'll just be going to Accra all the time. All the money trips will be given to New Fleet"
BASSA was presented with a proposal to catagorise trips "A" (Good trip) (Narita?) "C" trip (Bad trip) and those in between "B"trips. As new fleet grew on the basis of people leaving Old Fleet, trips would be transfered alternately A then B then C then A etc thus avoiding the above.
But BASSA wouldn't discuss that. In fact most crew don't even know about it, because BASSA don't want you to know.
Then, of course came the offer of the guaranteed monthly variable payment, blowing away any lingering doubts about the above statement being correct.
But, of course BASSA claim BA will just stop paying it at some point. (You know, "Oh, excuse me, I seem to be missing my variable pay this month." "Yes, that's right, we're not going to pay that any more.")
Eh, no. Because it will be a CONTRACTUAL element of our T & Cs, and it ain't as easy legally as BASSA make out to do that.
PLEASE, Mr Lurker and anyone else out there who unquestioningly believes all that BASSA puts out (and "delete" without reading anything that comes from BA? One girl actually told me she does that!) THINK. Does the statement actually stand up to close examination?
One last thought. BASSA have predicted the end of Cabin Crew as we've known it several times in the past in disputes (The "Thin End of the Wedge" phrase was used) and did it happen? Long Range flying? Nope. Mid Fleet? Nope. New entrant starter pay (1997)? Nope. Cosolidation of some variable pay into basic (The Money Back Guarantee)? Nope.
See why I take BASSA's domesday prophesy with a pinch of salt?
This brave group might just succeed in showing Willie Walsh and Bill Francis that not ALL cabin crew are taken in by BASSA's imbacillic nonsense.
They might convince them that it is possible to have an intelligent, informed and constructive conversation with a group of cabin crew - an approach that might just mean, Mr Lurker, that you and I (because I am crew too) can actually pretty much keep our income and lifestyle broadly as it is......
....something BASSA's strike will put at very serious risk.
You really do, at this crucial stage, need to start being a little more questioning of everything BASSA states, because much of it, on only mildly close examination is totally nonsensical. For example:
"New Fleet will mean that soon you'll all be sitting at work with no work" (Shortly after New Fleet was proposed, they claimed this)
Really?!! I'm a senior CSD and I'll be allowed to sit at home getting paid my (fairly significant) basic salary (plus now, of course my guaranteed monthly variable payment)............and do no work for it.
Honestly? Really? Yes? You sure? ......Erm, ok then where do I sign. No, give me the pen!! Give me the pen ! No, give it to me, GIVE IT TO ME!
Hmmm. Yeah, nice thought, but not really going to happen.
"New Fleet will mean that you'll just be going to Accra all the time. All the money trips will be given to New Fleet"
BASSA was presented with a proposal to catagorise trips "A" (Good trip) (Narita?) "C" trip (Bad trip) and those in between "B"trips. As new fleet grew on the basis of people leaving Old Fleet, trips would be transfered alternately A then B then C then A etc thus avoiding the above.
But BASSA wouldn't discuss that. In fact most crew don't even know about it, because BASSA don't want you to know.
Then, of course came the offer of the guaranteed monthly variable payment, blowing away any lingering doubts about the above statement being correct.
But, of course BASSA claim BA will just stop paying it at some point. (You know, "Oh, excuse me, I seem to be missing my variable pay this month." "Yes, that's right, we're not going to pay that any more.")
Eh, no. Because it will be a CONTRACTUAL element of our T & Cs, and it ain't as easy legally as BASSA make out to do that.
PLEASE, Mr Lurker and anyone else out there who unquestioningly believes all that BASSA puts out (and "delete" without reading anything that comes from BA? One girl actually told me she does that!) THINK. Does the statement actually stand up to close examination?
One last thought. BASSA have predicted the end of Cabin Crew as we've known it several times in the past in disputes (The "Thin End of the Wedge" phrase was used) and did it happen? Long Range flying? Nope. Mid Fleet? Nope. New entrant starter pay (1997)? Nope. Cosolidation of some variable pay into basic (The Money Back Guarantee)? Nope.
See why I take BASSA's domesday prophesy with a pinch of salt?
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Listen - nobody wants to strike
The crux of the matter is that if you believe in the principles of trade unionism, then placing a NO vote goes against the grain. Telling your employer that imposing changes to your agreement whenever they like is a dangerous place to be. If the current climate of UK plc wasn't so dire, then I suspect the yes vote would have been nearer to 100%.
So here we are, still deep in controversy, stress levels sky high and no end in sight. We don't need beating up by Pprune posters, we are more than capable of that ourselves.
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Luker - please respond to my re how you feel at ease with the effect of IA on the wider BA workforce? Its a fair question to you and I look forward to reading your thoughts on the subject
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I can only second pretty much what Ottergirl has said. It actually took me over 2 weeks to eventually decide to put the cross in the No box!
I personally do not like or agree to the principal of ''imposition''. However I recognised that part of the problem was that the union were not that effective in negotiations so decided what did I think a strike would achieve? Also the job market is bleak changes need to be made, the union are not very open minded with the thought of changes and were willing to risk destroying the airline and disrupting the airline over 12 days over Christmas. This is why I do not support a strike.
I do not want to be walked over, I do not want to have things imposed as and when the company see fit. But that is why I think rather than striking, the union has to just get rational and sit down and think long and hard about areas we could be proactive in achieving savings. I know they came up with a proposal which yes is a start, but it was largely temporary and much of it created cost (like Middle East back to backs) There shouldn't be such a distance between the proposals on both sides. They should both be able to meet halfway. Alas that is not to be PARTLY because the union are so against change!
I personally do not like or agree to the principal of ''imposition''. However I recognised that part of the problem was that the union were not that effective in negotiations so decided what did I think a strike would achieve? Also the job market is bleak changes need to be made, the union are not very open minded with the thought of changes and were willing to risk destroying the airline and disrupting the airline over 12 days over Christmas. This is why I do not support a strike.
I do not want to be walked over, I do not want to have things imposed as and when the company see fit. But that is why I think rather than striking, the union has to just get rational and sit down and think long and hard about areas we could be proactive in achieving savings. I know they came up with a proposal which yes is a start, but it was largely temporary and much of it created cost (like Middle East back to backs) There shouldn't be such a distance between the proposals on both sides. They should both be able to meet halfway. Alas that is not to be PARTLY because the union are so against change!
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This dispute is about control, power and politics. Contracts are the smokescreen bassa are using to mobilise the troops for the endgame.
Fact:
- the courts will decide the legality of imposition.
Opinion:
- bassa win they lose! Lurker gets his shock and awe, 90 days notice and a chance to give 100% of his time to his new franchise!
- bassa lose they lose! Lurker gets no notice and finds himself awaiting a tribunal. Enough don't walk to keep an operation going as Ba recruit the bmi/virgin/globespan/jal etc at quickest rate possible. No restriction recruiting staff to replace sacked for miss-conduct crew. Bassa/unite find themselves in a legal death match with BA for damages in the lead up to an election that unite is supposed to bank roll! Everybody loses something. Except the shareholder.
There us no way back from the precipice we find ourself at. Company masterplan or union stupidity, it no longer matters. The company won't allow a workforce of disenfranchised and angry crew to undermine the product, the one the company decides to deliver not the union, out of revenge. A workforce that has engaged it's CEO in a battle to the death will not be given a safe harbour. Lurker us right, it's willie or them, one will go. It's not going to be willie.
I don't know how long it will take to complete it's transformation but I'm convinced the company will be a different beast by the end if the summer.
The future of cc in this company is still in their own hands. The sooner crew understand that GG and her friends represent the future the better.
Fact:
- the courts will decide the legality of imposition.
Opinion:
- bassa win they lose! Lurker gets his shock and awe, 90 days notice and a chance to give 100% of his time to his new franchise!
- bassa lose they lose! Lurker gets no notice and finds himself awaiting a tribunal. Enough don't walk to keep an operation going as Ba recruit the bmi/virgin/globespan/jal etc at quickest rate possible. No restriction recruiting staff to replace sacked for miss-conduct crew. Bassa/unite find themselves in a legal death match with BA for damages in the lead up to an election that unite is supposed to bank roll! Everybody loses something. Except the shareholder.
There us no way back from the precipice we find ourself at. Company masterplan or union stupidity, it no longer matters. The company won't allow a workforce of disenfranchised and angry crew to undermine the product, the one the company decides to deliver not the union, out of revenge. A workforce that has engaged it's CEO in a battle to the death will not be given a safe harbour. Lurker us right, it's willie or them, one will go. It's not going to be willie.
I don't know how long it will take to complete it's transformation but I'm convinced the company will be a different beast by the end if the summer.
The future of cc in this company is still in their own hands. The sooner crew understand that GG and her friends represent the future the better.
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Lurker,
I'm inclinded to "quote" your recent post to HighFlyer14, but we all know what you've written.
The PCC is not discriminating towards anyone. As far as we're concerned, if you were actually interested in what we have to offer, you would've got in contact with us through the official email. You would also have answered my questions to you earlier as to what you would want the PCC to do for you, and how.
Gg
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
I'm inclinded to "quote" your recent post to HighFlyer14, but we all know what you've written.
The PCC is not discriminating towards anyone. As far as we're concerned, if you were actually interested in what we have to offer, you would've got in contact with us through the official email. You would also have answered my questions to you earlier as to what you would want the PCC to do for you, and how.
Gg
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Luker
As BT used to say - its good to talk. This means opening ears, considering whats been said, being open to options? Can we agree on that? If so a resolution could be possible
I've always been an inclusive thinker - not only 'me' focused but what is best for my employer - because the 2 are linked. Can you agree with the above principles?
ps accept your comment but sleep happy I could not
As BT used to say - its good to talk. This means opening ears, considering whats been said, being open to options? Can we agree on that? If so a resolution could be possible
I've always been an inclusive thinker - not only 'me' focused but what is best for my employer - because the 2 are linked. Can you agree with the above principles?
ps accept your comment but sleep happy I could not
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Lurker, isn't that a totally contradictory statement? If feb 1st is the 'defining' day , I assume because you accept that the courts will decide the legalities not lala, then why aren't you advocating a response which is a reaction to the actual legal position as established at the defining moment?
If you accept that at present the situation is not defined I cannot see on what basis your apparent desire for a yes vote is derived from other than emmotion.
The logic is very simple. Why do you choose dogma?
If you accept that at present the situation is not defined I cannot see on what basis your apparent desire for a yes vote is derived from other than emmotion.
The logic is very simple. Why do you choose dogma?
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Yes and if the changes were non-contractual then will Unite still be sending us on strike 
If a part of a contract is non contractual then is it even classed as imposition, as surely the company can decide what to do with this. Some pro-strike people will probably say ''well how would you like being imposed a paycut'' - reread what I have just said. Pay, days off, rest, leave etc IS contractual therefore that would be classed as imposition and I would be against that. However, if crew complements are non-contractual then is that imposition?? Well I suppose it is but is it a ''strikable'' imposition?
If a part of a contract is non contractual then is it even classed as imposition, as surely the company can decide what to do with this. Some pro-strike people will probably say ''well how would you like being imposed a paycut'' - reread what I have just said. Pay, days off, rest, leave etc IS contractual therefore that would be classed as imposition and I would be against that. However, if crew complements are non-contractual then is that imposition?? Well I suppose it is but is it a ''strikable'' imposition?
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Lurker
So thousands of people could loose their jobs on a matter or 'principle' for a few - how fair is that?
To be honest I think that BA were prepared to engage (and maybe still are) are BASSA prepared to enter into negotiations without preconditions?
1 down on a LH as a reason and reduced service of EF - have done 235Y on a Britannia 757 for a few years incl SSH, LCA etc. there and backs Hard work but fine.
Loosing your (and other jobs) cos of imposition - see point 2 above
My real fear is that should the worst happen CC will be stunned saying ' this wasnt supposed to happen'
So thousands of people could loose their jobs on a matter or 'principle' for a few - how fair is that?
To be honest I think that BA were prepared to engage (and maybe still are) are BASSA prepared to enter into negotiations without preconditions?
1 down on a LH as a reason and reduced service of EF - have done 235Y on a Britannia 757 for a few years incl SSH, LCA etc. there and backs Hard work but fine.
Loosing your (and other jobs) cos of imposition - see point 2 above
My real fear is that should the worst happen CC will be stunned saying ' this wasnt supposed to happen'
My trip tonight, both f/c, the trm and three engineers have volunteered. All want to help preserve the company we are proud to work for.
BASSA say only 200 ish have volunteered. They're being as truthful as ever.
BASSA say only 200 ish have volunteered. They're being as truthful as ever.
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Lurker,
You need to read the posts more carefully. We would be happy to assist you, but you've said before that you don't want to be a part of the PCC. The problem isn't that we won't help you (your claim) but the fact that we can't help you.
Gg
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
You need to read the posts more carefully. We would be happy to assist you, but you've said before that you don't want to be a part of the PCC. The problem isn't that we won't help you (your claim) but the fact that we can't help you.
Gg
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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Guys
That is it - I have had it on here.
A Pilot who has access to my personal details and personal email address from this forum has made veiled threats against me (as in I suggest you tell BA ASAP ) - I am no longer going to visit this forum or engage in debate as I think that personal blackmail is going a stage too far.
See you in the next life
A Pilot who has access to my personal details and personal email address from this forum has made veiled threats against me (as in I suggest you tell BA ASAP ) - I am no longer going to visit this forum or engage in debate as I think that personal blackmail is going a stage too far.
See you in the next life
Last edited by A Lurker; 27th Jan 2010 at 00:15.