Disturbed Rest before a flight and FTLs
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Disturbed Rest before a flight and FTLs
My friend was disturbed during rest 3 times prior to a standby report, with the airline trying to call her out to make her report for a flight at the start of standby time.
What is the rules to govern this CAP371 covers this, but she is working for a Swedish Airline and I have yet been able to find whether the CAP371 rules are similar or not under EU-Ops. Any help would be appreciated, as her company are putting a lot of pressure on a lot of the other crew doing similar things.
What is the rules to govern this CAP371 covers this, but she is working for a Swedish Airline and I have yet been able to find whether the CAP371 rules are similar or not under EU-Ops. Any help would be appreciated, as her company are putting a lot of pressure on a lot of the other crew doing similar things.
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Crew cannot be disturbed during rest period. Simple as that. If the company is also doing it to other crew they should be reported as they are violating certain regulations.
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but she is working for a Swedish Airline
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When Crewing call tell them "you will be starting your rest period from the time you put the phone down"......they won't call back, trust me.
PS Your Cabin Crew Manager may do later though.
PS Your Cabin Crew Manager may do later though.
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When I call SB's out, I allow them the full 90 minutes travelling time before report. If the report time is the same as the start of SB time then they're not usable for that flight. End Of. Standby duty starts at standby time, not during your rest period. You'd be within your rights to refuse the duty if you're disturbed during your rest period.
If crews want to phone in of their own volition before going to sleep so that they know if they've been allocated to a flight and can plan their rest, then that's fine, but once into the rest period prior to the start of standby I wouldn't dream of calling them up.
If crew are being called out for flights without enough notice to get to their bases and report then I'd ask your rostering bods to look at moving the SB times so that SB blocks are actually covering the travelling time as well as the flight's report. Seems like they're pretty random at the moment.
PS: Apologies for posting in a Cabin Crew forum, but crewing is where I work, so I know a little about this sort of thing.
Right. back to lurking.
If crews want to phone in of their own volition before going to sleep so that they know if they've been allocated to a flight and can plan their rest, then that's fine, but once into the rest period prior to the start of standby I wouldn't dream of calling them up.
If crew are being called out for flights without enough notice to get to their bases and report then I'd ask your rostering bods to look at moving the SB times so that SB blocks are actually covering the travelling time as well as the flight's report. Seems like they're pretty random at the moment.
PS: Apologies for posting in a Cabin Crew forum, but crewing is where I work, so I know a little about this sort of thing.
Right. back to lurking.
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Totally correct. Your Crewing guys are well out of line. 
If they're doing this as a matter of course to everyone, either:
1) Turn your phones off until the start of SB duty. (Easiest option)
Or..
2) Tell them they've disturbed your rest and you'll now be unavailable until you've completed another rest period. (Ballsy option!)
It may not make you popular, but rules are there for a reason. With a bit of luck the penny will drop and things will change.
If they're doing this as a matter of course to everyone, either:
1) Turn your phones off until the start of SB duty. (Easiest option)
Or..
2) Tell them they've disturbed your rest and you'll now be unavailable until you've completed another rest period. (Ballsy option!)
It may not make you popular, but rules are there for a reason. With a bit of luck the penny will drop and things will change.
Last edited by Ten West; 28th May 2009 at 18:53.
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Glider
I must admit, I am going to go against the flow here.
I have called Crew many times before standby and at 6 in the morning to boot.
I have found a genuine 'sorry to disturb you before your standby starts, but I (not the airline) am stuck, could you please report @ 0800 for an XYZ and back' is normally responded to with a 'yes'.
That said, two further calls after a no is not acceptable.
It all depends on the roster practise of the airline concerned, but 0800 should rest your friend to conduct maximum standby followed by a flight duty (and Commanders Discretion) and that could equate to getting home the following morning. Thats what saying no can lead to for another crew?
If the 0800 standby is for 'hours', then that is wrong and needs to be addressed.
Hope it hasn't happened again,
Bored
I have called Crew many times before standby and at 6 in the morning to boot.
I have found a genuine 'sorry to disturb you before your standby starts, but I (not the airline) am stuck, could you please report @ 0800 for an XYZ and back' is normally responded to with a 'yes'.
That said, two further calls after a no is not acceptable.
It all depends on the roster practise of the airline concerned, but 0800 should rest your friend to conduct maximum standby followed by a flight duty (and Commanders Discretion) and that could equate to getting home the following morning. Thats what saying no can lead to for another crew?
If the 0800 standby is for 'hours', then that is wrong and needs to be addressed.
Hope it hasn't happened again,
Bored
Last edited by boredcounter; 1st Jun 2009 at 02:48. Reason: Spellink
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I can see some merit to Boredcounter's post and agree
Back in the day there was always a 'you scratch my back' ethos, if you could give crew extra call out time before their SB started, especially if it's a L/Haul trip, it was very often appreciated, ofcourse you always came up against the odd awkward so and so who did object, they then mysteriously found themselves getting the minimum report time for all duties and couldn't work out why!!! - you try getting ready, packing and travelling to work in 90mins - Crewing will always win.
It seems that 'get along' attitude may have been eroded from the profession nowadays
Back in the day there was always a 'you scratch my back' ethos, if you could give crew extra call out time before their SB started, especially if it's a L/Haul trip, it was very often appreciated, ofcourse you always came up against the odd awkward so and so who did object, they then mysteriously found themselves getting the minimum report time for all duties and couldn't work out why!!! - you try getting ready, packing and travelling to work in 90mins - Crewing will always win.
It seems that 'get along' attitude may have been eroded from the profession nowadays
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I too can see some merit in what my colleague "Boredcounter" is saying, but that leads to another problem:
If you're relying on goodwill and a "sorry to disturb you" so that you can crew flights, then what happens when a crew member decides (Quite legally) that they're not going to play ball, and that they won't come out from Standby because of disturbed rest? Relying on luck and people's good nature is a very shaky foundation upon which to build a roster.
The chances are you'll be stuck for cover. Maybe because the management have seen that you seem to be coping okay with the numbers of SB's you've got (They won't care how you're doing it) so they'll be reluctant to allocate more SB's.
If you need to cover a wider time band then you need more SB's. They shouldn't be putting you or the crew member in the position of having to 'Stretch' SB times by disturbing rest.
My airline has a system whereby a crew member can log onto their live roster and check what they're in for in real time. If I allocate a call-out from Standby, then as soon as I hit the key the update is published. Many of our crews check on there before going to bed to see what's going on for the next morning.
Of course, this doesn't help in the case of being called out to cover for a "Sick on report" or a car breakdown, but it does provide us with a means to keep crew members informed without disturbing their rest.
Our crews are obliged to take no longer than 90 minutes from call-out to reporting point. We always take the 90 minutes as a given constant in our SB call-out plans.
They're always welcome to call us at any time anyway. I will never call them during their rest period. Okay, you may be able to 'bring them forward' but what if they refuse with disturbed rest and they're the last SB? You've lost them for that day..
And there won't be a damn thing you can do about it.
If you're relying on goodwill and a "sorry to disturb you" so that you can crew flights, then what happens when a crew member decides (Quite legally) that they're not going to play ball, and that they won't come out from Standby because of disturbed rest? Relying on luck and people's good nature is a very shaky foundation upon which to build a roster.
The chances are you'll be stuck for cover. Maybe because the management have seen that you seem to be coping okay with the numbers of SB's you've got (They won't care how you're doing it) so they'll be reluctant to allocate more SB's.
If you need to cover a wider time band then you need more SB's. They shouldn't be putting you or the crew member in the position of having to 'Stretch' SB times by disturbing rest.
My airline has a system whereby a crew member can log onto their live roster and check what they're in for in real time. If I allocate a call-out from Standby, then as soon as I hit the key the update is published. Many of our crews check on there before going to bed to see what's going on for the next morning.
Of course, this doesn't help in the case of being called out to cover for a "Sick on report" or a car breakdown, but it does provide us with a means to keep crew members informed without disturbing their rest.
Our crews are obliged to take no longer than 90 minutes from call-out to reporting point. We always take the 90 minutes as a given constant in our SB call-out plans.
They're always welcome to call us at any time anyway. I will never call them during their rest period. Okay, you may be able to 'bring them forward' but what if they refuse with disturbed rest and they're the last SB? You've lost them for that day..
And there won't be a damn thing you can do about it.
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Ten,
Trust me the goodwill worked both ways, it is the only way it does. Perhaps you work for a larger airline than I ever have, but I honestly prefer the smaller ‘family environment’. The last time I worked with Cabin Crew, I guess we peaked at about 250 of them on paper rosters. A mutual swap was never met with no without a reason, and where at all possible other names to try and swap with. All Crew were actively disturbed on their rest period to stop them leaving home when flights cancelled over night and put on standby, etc etc. In fact a number of grounded Cabin Crew assigned to us changed their views on almost everything when they worked with us, contact before standby one of them.
I somewhat disagree with Picasa’s comment that Crewing will always win, it is more a case that they are a good friend to have, who, will play harder by the rules when required and know the rules that bit better.
I too now work with online roster access, albeit in box hauling now, not the passenger world. It amazes me how many roster changes are accepted on days off and during rest periods, so thinking about work whilst on all periods free from duty.
Bored
Trust me the goodwill worked both ways, it is the only way it does. Perhaps you work for a larger airline than I ever have, but I honestly prefer the smaller ‘family environment’. The last time I worked with Cabin Crew, I guess we peaked at about 250 of them on paper rosters. A mutual swap was never met with no without a reason, and where at all possible other names to try and swap with. All Crew were actively disturbed on their rest period to stop them leaving home when flights cancelled over night and put on standby, etc etc. In fact a number of grounded Cabin Crew assigned to us changed their views on almost everything when they worked with us, contact before standby one of them.
I somewhat disagree with Picasa’s comment that Crewing will always win, it is more a case that they are a good friend to have, who, will play harder by the rules when required and know the rules that bit better.
I too now work with online roster access, albeit in box hauling now, not the passenger world. It amazes me how many roster changes are accepted on days off and during rest periods, so thinking about work whilst on all periods free from duty.
Bored
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The problem with regularly calling people before their rostered sby time is that it suggests that the rostering system is not working properly. If the operation cannot be crewed or covered within the current rostering system, then it is the crewing department that needs to adapt and NOT resort to regularly disturbing crew to cover the inadequacies. As commented earlier it would be wise to have a fresh look at sby start times and see if they fit with the current operational timetable.
That said, I agree that it is almost impossible to have the exact number of heads in the right place at all times. That though should only be a result of previous delays, canx, out of hours etc. and not as a result of rostering practice.
The trouble with using the 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' approach is that it almost always works one way. After all in a larger airline how do you repay the favour? So if you are not careful you build up a certain amount of antagonism against you (crewing).
This kind of practice is often most used in airlines where there is a crew compliment that are younger and newer to the industry and afraid of standing up for themselves or unaware of the rules. In this current climate many crew will be very very frightened of causing a possible flight delay or refusal of duty. Crewing do need to be mindful that whilst we live in turbulent times and we must all work together to keep our airlines afloat, it would be very easy to pass their own departments 'weaknesses' onto their crew and visa versa. The crew/crewing relationship is one that needs very careful nurturing to get the best productivity.
We all work in 24/7/360 industry so we all know the disruption that it has on our lives. No-one can sustain working in an industry where your working week is completely at the behest of the employer and you end up with no ability to plan anything away from work. So it is not quite as simple as calling someone who starts work at 0900 to come in at 0800 on the odd occasion.
6
That said, I agree that it is almost impossible to have the exact number of heads in the right place at all times. That though should only be a result of previous delays, canx, out of hours etc. and not as a result of rostering practice.
The trouble with using the 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' approach is that it almost always works one way. After all in a larger airline how do you repay the favour? So if you are not careful you build up a certain amount of antagonism against you (crewing).
This kind of practice is often most used in airlines where there is a crew compliment that are younger and newer to the industry and afraid of standing up for themselves or unaware of the rules. In this current climate many crew will be very very frightened of causing a possible flight delay or refusal of duty. Crewing do need to be mindful that whilst we live in turbulent times and we must all work together to keep our airlines afloat, it would be very easy to pass their own departments 'weaknesses' onto their crew and visa versa. The crew/crewing relationship is one that needs very careful nurturing to get the best productivity.
We all work in 24/7/360 industry so we all know the disruption that it has on our lives. No-one can sustain working in an industry where your working week is completely at the behest of the employer and you end up with no ability to plan anything away from work. So it is not quite as simple as calling someone who starts work at 0900 to come in at 0800 on the odd occasion.
6
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wee one.
I do not work for the airline in question, but was merely asking on behalf of a friend that wanted some advice on the situation.
Thanks everyone for the advice, she has taken on the advice given.
I do not work for the airline in question, but was merely asking on behalf of a friend that wanted some advice on the situation.
Thanks everyone for the advice, she has taken on the advice given.
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Originally Posted by 6Chimes
...The trouble with using the 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' approach is that it almost always works one way. After all in a larger airline how do you repay the favour? So if you are not careful you build up a certain amount of antagonism against you (crewing).
Once you've been doing Crewing a while though you build up a mental 'Black Book' of people you know will help out for a favour which you can repay immediately by removing them from a future duty date of their choice and giving them an extra day off, etc.
Whenever someone agrees to help out like that I always ask them there and then what I can do for them, and do it while they're on the phone. That way there's none of this "I did Crewing a favour three months ago and now I want Saturday off" business that no-one will remember anything about.
You also build up a mental 'Black Book' of people you know will only give you trouble and to steer clear of!
Originally Posted by Boredcounter
Trust me the goodwill worked both ways, it is the only way it does. Perhaps you work for a larger airline than I ever have, but I honestly prefer the smaller ‘family environment’. The last time I worked with Cabin Crew, I guess we peaked at about 250 of them on paper rosters...
... A mutual swap was never met with no without a reason, and where at all possible other names to try and swap with.
...All Crew were actively disturbed on their rest period to stop them leaving home when flights cancelled over night and put on standby, etc etc.
In fact a number of grounded Cabin Crew assigned to us changed their views on almost everything when they worked with us, contact before standby one of them.
I know there are certain Cabin Crew members who regard Crewing as being nothing but sad, miserable gits with no lives so they just want to wreck the lives of others by giving them unpopular duties, etc.
I also know Crewing guys who regard Cabin Crews as little more than inconsequential biscuit-chuckers who do nothing but whinge about having to fly for a living and spend the sunny weekends going sick!
The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I love in when Cabin Crew guys pop over to see me because I can show them exactly what happens in crewing. And how little we have to work with sometimes!
I'd be interested to spend a day in a Crew Room too so that those with gripes against Crewing can tell me to my face rather than moan to their mates. That way the problems could be addressed and we would all have easier lives.
I somewhat disagree with Picasa’s comment that Crewing will always win, it is more a case that they are a good friend to have, who, will play harder by the rules when required and know the rules that bit better.
I too now work with online roster access, albeit in box hauling now, not the passenger world. It amazes me how many roster changes are accepted on days off and during rest periods, so thinking about work whilst on all periods free from duty.
... I should get out more.
Last edited by Ten West; 4th Jun 2009 at 23:29.