Disturbed Rest before a flight and FTLs
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Having worked on the scheduling department and now working as a flight crew member I have some experience with the subject seen from both sides :-)
- For me personnally there is no problem for trying to call a person before there standby duty begins unless they're still in a rest period of a previous flight/duty. They don't have to pick up their phone ofcourse, but they can. Personally when I sleep before my standby duty, my phone is off, so you can try calling as much as you want :-)
- When I called someone before their standby duty began, it was never to let them begin a flight duty at the beginning of their standby period. It was to inform them well ahead of time, that saves them the need to rush to work.
- I only called starting from 9 am till 5 pm (unless still in rest from previous duty) as any other department within my company with no access to crew rosters would do.
- I never did favours in return because someone did the company a favour. When you have to convince people to do something and give them a present right away, the atmosphere in the company isn't that good imo. However people knew, when they requested something (day off, certain flight,...) in an unpublished roster they would get it in 95% of the times. Because it becomes a chain of events when you start doing favours.
e.g.: someone will do a flight, but they don't want to do their flight 3 days later. So you have to find another person to cover that flight --> 2 roster changes in stead of 1 --> roster instability.
Of course when someones gives up a day off you should be very flexible as crew scheduling department as this people gives up the only day that is fix in their roster :-) But never at the cost of other people. When someone gives up a day off, I gave them 2 extra days off that month where they had normally a standby period.
- Saying your rest begins after someone calls you would not work in our company, 1 simple answer: "you don't have to pick up your phone".
To conclude it comes down to 2 simple things:
Be honest and use some common sense, that is for both of the parties. By being honest I also mean telling scheduling when they go out of line. In most cases they acted with good intentions, but they are also learning every day.
So my advice to the threadstarter: if you're sleeping, put off you phone and sleep :-)
- For me personnally there is no problem for trying to call a person before there standby duty begins unless they're still in a rest period of a previous flight/duty. They don't have to pick up their phone ofcourse, but they can. Personally when I sleep before my standby duty, my phone is off, so you can try calling as much as you want :-)
- When I called someone before their standby duty began, it was never to let them begin a flight duty at the beginning of their standby period. It was to inform them well ahead of time, that saves them the need to rush to work.
- I only called starting from 9 am till 5 pm (unless still in rest from previous duty) as any other department within my company with no access to crew rosters would do.
- I never did favours in return because someone did the company a favour. When you have to convince people to do something and give them a present right away, the atmosphere in the company isn't that good imo. However people knew, when they requested something (day off, certain flight,...) in an unpublished roster they would get it in 95% of the times. Because it becomes a chain of events when you start doing favours.
e.g.: someone will do a flight, but they don't want to do their flight 3 days later. So you have to find another person to cover that flight --> 2 roster changes in stead of 1 --> roster instability.
Of course when someones gives up a day off you should be very flexible as crew scheduling department as this people gives up the only day that is fix in their roster :-) But never at the cost of other people. When someone gives up a day off, I gave them 2 extra days off that month where they had normally a standby period.
- Saying your rest begins after someone calls you would not work in our company, 1 simple answer: "you don't have to pick up your phone".
To conclude it comes down to 2 simple things:
Be honest and use some common sense, that is for both of the parties. By being honest I also mean telling scheduling when they go out of line. In most cases they acted with good intentions, but they are also learning every day.
So my advice to the threadstarter: if you're sleeping, put off you phone and sleep :-)
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Yeah you're correct but then treat your phonecall as "the start of a new duty" if you know what I mean.
When someone did a FDP of 14 hours I would not call before the beginning of the rest of their previous duty + 14 hours.
The rest you need before a flight is related to the previous duty as I'm sure you will know :-)
When someone did a FDP of 14 hours I would not call before the beginning of the rest of their previous duty + 14 hours.
The rest you need before a flight is related to the previous duty as I'm sure you will know :-)
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I am a Captain with a ME airline. At the start of the briefing I ask the crew if they worked the night before, how much rest they had and if they were on standby for this flight. The get crapped on by the crewing dept. so I find out if they are legal. If they aren't I offload them.
If you think you arent legal for your flight tell your Capt. If he has any balls he'll take care of it.
It's ultimately his responsibility.
If you think you arent legal for your flight tell your Capt. If he has any balls he'll take care of it.
It's ultimately his responsibility.
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Good call. 
No-one wants to break laws. Even a minor transgression of CAP371 (In the UK) will have the CAA on the company's case.
If a company is having to bend rules or break them in order to get flights away then that needs to be addressed.
No-one wants to break laws. Even a minor transgression of CAP371 (In the UK) will have the CAA on the company's case.
If a company is having to bend rules or break them in order to get flights away then that needs to be addressed.
Junior trash
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No-one wants to break laws. Even a minor transgression of CAP371 (In the UK) will have the CAA on the company's case.
I've found the following actions always avoids any awkward discussions with Ops:
1. Set alarm clocks
for start of standby period.
2. Take landline off hook and /or turn off mobile ( believe me mobiles do come with an off switch).
3. Go to bed......
1. Set alarm clocks
for start of standby period.2. Take landline off hook and /or turn off mobile ( believe me mobiles do come with an off switch).
3. Go to bed......
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Indeed it does. But it runs backwards from the report time of the next FDP though, for however long it needs to be, dependent on the previous duty as you say, ie: it doesn't start at the off-duty time of the previous duty. Except in the case of minimum rest of course!
We all know all this anyway. I was just clearing something up that was posted a few days back which I may have misinterpreted where I took it that someone thought that their rest ran from off-duty time rather than from next report minus rest period length.
We all know all this anyway. I was just clearing something up that was posted a few days back which I may have misinterpreted where I took it that someone thought that their rest ran from off-duty time rather than from next report minus rest period length.
Looks confusing written down, doesn't it? 
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Ten
I think we are now into the big grey area.
If rest is to be worked back from the next rostered report, no Crew may be contacted, or indeed brought forward to operate prior to thier next rostered report time?
I have no issues with contacting Crew after minimum rest earned has been achieved, and I think many would do so also. The grey area being the relative unsocial hours.
Wiggy however sums it up a treat, turn all phones off during rest, (or accept all calls). This issue was taken to the FOI in a past life at another Airline. The FOI was certainly of the opinion that 'answering the phone is optional, if Company phone at such times that you answer the phone to friends and family, how on earth is Company disturbing your rest'. I grant you not applicable in this case due times given.
If rest is to be worked back from the next rostered report, no Crew may be contacted, or indeed brought forward to operate prior to thier next rostered report time?
I have no issues with contacting Crew after minimum rest earned has been achieved, and I think many would do so also. The grey area being the relative unsocial hours.
Wiggy however sums it up a treat, turn all phones off during rest, (or accept all calls). This issue was taken to the FOI in a past life at another Airline. The FOI was certainly of the opinion that 'answering the phone is optional, if Company phone at such times that you answer the phone to friends and family, how on earth is Company disturbing your rest'. I grant you not applicable in this case due times given.
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From our Ops 'Bible'
"The minimum rest period for (Crew), which must be taken before undertaking a flying duty period, shall be at least as long as the preceding..." Blah blah blah.
Before undertaking a FDP. Not after having completed an FDP. In our company at least.
Yup. Got it in one. The only thing we're allowed to ring them during rest for is to either let them know that their flight has been cancelled (Usually because it's gone on to a different fleet type) or to call them in a certain window prior to report to let them know of delays and thus delay report in a single FDP.
If we call them on the offchance of bringing them forward and they say "Oh, you've disturbed my rest - I can't operate now!" Then they're perfectly entitled to come off the duty. It's our fault for gambling on bringing them forward and losing.
And that's the way it should be in my opinion. That way everyone knows where they stand, and if A/C have to sit on the ground because of not enough stanby crews to cover, then someone will learn from it and roster better standby coverage next season.
If it becomes standard practice to "Stretch" standbies to cover several flights then the bean counters will happily let it carry on (because it's cheaper) but the minute it all goes Tango Uniform it'll be you and me that are hauled up for a "hats on / no coffee/ no biscuits" chat to be asked why we're going against operating procedure.
Don't expect any help or back-up from the accountants either. If we keep coping, they'll keep doing it.
"The minimum rest period for (Crew), which must be taken before undertaking a flying duty period, shall be at least as long as the preceding..." Blah blah blah.
Before undertaking a FDP. Not after having completed an FDP. In our company at least.
Originally Posted by Boredcounter
...If rest is to be worked back from the next rostered report, no Crew may be contacted, or indeed brought forward to operate prior to their next rostered report time?
If we call them on the offchance of bringing them forward and they say "Oh, you've disturbed my rest - I can't operate now!" Then they're perfectly entitled to come off the duty. It's our fault for gambling on bringing them forward and losing.
And that's the way it should be in my opinion. That way everyone knows where they stand, and if A/C have to sit on the ground because of not enough stanby crews to cover, then someone will learn from it and roster better standby coverage next season.
If it becomes standard practice to "Stretch" standbies to cover several flights then the bean counters will happily let it carry on (because it's cheaper) but the minute it all goes Tango Uniform it'll be you and me that are hauled up for a "hats on / no coffee/ no biscuits" chat to be asked why we're going against operating procedure.
Don't expect any help or back-up from the accountants either. If we keep coping, they'll keep doing it.
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Ten
Yep have all that in A7.17 too, but it is in the way you read it.
Given the minimum rest definitions, is it unreasonable to contact someone on rostered rest of 16 hours to bring them forward 2 after 12 hours off? I would say yes, unless that brings them into a more favourable report to be exploited, which is unacceptable. However, the change might just finish them earlier? They are still rested by the rules.
It is just that, there is no 'Ops Bible' as you put it, it is the approved FTLS and in some areas it is open to discussion and agreement. Breach it's meaning and you will be told by the approving body.
To take your case in point (I think?):
14 hours earned
Called after 12 hours
Duty refused
Back on duty 12 hours later on SBY, to work maximum standby + FDP and allowable Commanders discertion?
'And that's the way it should be in my opinion. That way everyone knows where they stand, and if A/C have to sit on the ground because of not enough stanby crews to cover, then someone will learn from it and roster better standby coverage next season.'
Ten, if you buy into that statement, there is no hope at all. An aircraft sat on the ground is a very costly asset indeed...........................
Bored
Given the minimum rest definitions, is it unreasonable to contact someone on rostered rest of 16 hours to bring them forward 2 after 12 hours off? I would say yes, unless that brings them into a more favourable report to be exploited, which is unacceptable. However, the change might just finish them earlier? They are still rested by the rules.
It is just that, there is no 'Ops Bible' as you put it, it is the approved FTLS and in some areas it is open to discussion and agreement. Breach it's meaning and you will be told by the approving body.
To take your case in point (I think?):
14 hours earned
Called after 12 hours
Duty refused
Back on duty 12 hours later on SBY, to work maximum standby + FDP and allowable Commanders discertion?
'And that's the way it should be in my opinion. That way everyone knows where they stand, and if A/C have to sit on the ground because of not enough stanby crews to cover, then someone will learn from it and roster better standby coverage next season.'
Ten, if you buy into that statement, there is no hope at all. An aircraft sat on the ground is a very costly asset indeed...........................
Bored
Last edited by boredcounter; 10th Jun 2009 at 07:58.
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I fully agree my friend, an aeroplane sat on the ground is no good to anyone. I just think it's unfair when bending rules is considered a standard practice by people higher up the food chain in some companies (Not mine, I hasten to add!) who will happily take the credit for reduced costs due to lower headcount but who will back away and say "Not me Guv!" when things go wrong.
Anyway, thanks for raising some interesting points.
I hope that this thread has not been too much of a diversion from the usual business of Cabin Crew members, but hopefully it's been interesting.
All the best, 10W.
Anyway, thanks for raising some interesting points.
I hope that this thread has not been too much of a diversion from the usual business of Cabin Crew members, but hopefully it's been interesting.
All the best, 10W.
