Not a pleasant flight
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Alpha, your rant is ridiculous. In my loco company, all cabin crew and pilots I've seen perform their safety and security related duties diligently. Yes, there is time pressure, but that does not mean we cut corners.
Where did you pluck 30 mins from anyway?? The turn around has been analyzed so that all pre flight duties can be performed in the available time. If the aircraft lands late, it takes off late too because all the pre-flight duties need to be carried out and there is no 'spare' time factored in.
Adequate crew rest between duties, food/drink, duty times, max flying hours per week/month/year etc are separate issues to turn around times. There's some good legislation, and some which could be improved... But I don't really think it's appropriate to this thread though.
Where did you pluck 30 mins from anyway?? The turn around has been analyzed so that all pre flight duties can be performed in the available time. If the aircraft lands late, it takes off late too because all the pre-flight duties need to be carried out and there is no 'spare' time factored in.
Adequate crew rest between duties, food/drink, duty times, max flying hours per week/month/year etc are separate issues to turn around times. There's some good legislation, and some which could be improved... But I don't really think it's appropriate to this thread though.
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OK. Now I'm going to make myself very very unpopular but before I do could I just say I really appreciate what cabin crew do; I fully appreciate they are there primarily for my safety and I always thank them as I leave the aircraft.
I also understand they have to deal with some very unpleasant passengers and I do not expect them to stand at the front and sing 'Welcome Home' with beatific smiles on their faces like Peters and Lee (most of you are probably too young to remember them) every time I fly.
HOWEVER, let me ask you all a question.
How would you feel under the following circumstances?
You book an overnight stay with your partner at a nice hotel paying the full cost of £218 in advance.
You arrive at the restaurant for breakfast only to be told there's going to be a two hour delay for 'hotel operational reasons'.
When you eventually get into the dining room the waiter or waitress stamps up and down and after showing you the buffet chucks a cup on to a chair beside you.
He or she then proceeds to bang cupboard doors as loudly as possible and announces there will be no tea or coffee because his or her work rota has been mucked up in some way and there was no time to organise it.
You nip out to visit the bathroom and on the way back see the waiting staff sitting at the rear of the dining room enjoying a cup of tea or coffee.
You mildly query the situation and you're told to remember these people have had to work longer hours than expected, are tired, haven't had any refreshments and because of these circumstances have missed time with their friends and families.
Be honest. How would you feel?
I also understand they have to deal with some very unpleasant passengers and I do not expect them to stand at the front and sing 'Welcome Home' with beatific smiles on their faces like Peters and Lee (most of you are probably too young to remember them) every time I fly.
HOWEVER, let me ask you all a question.
How would you feel under the following circumstances?
You book an overnight stay with your partner at a nice hotel paying the full cost of £218 in advance.
You arrive at the restaurant for breakfast only to be told there's going to be a two hour delay for 'hotel operational reasons'.
When you eventually get into the dining room the waiter or waitress stamps up and down and after showing you the buffet chucks a cup on to a chair beside you.
He or she then proceeds to bang cupboard doors as loudly as possible and announces there will be no tea or coffee because his or her work rota has been mucked up in some way and there was no time to organise it.
You nip out to visit the bathroom and on the way back see the waiting staff sitting at the rear of the dining room enjoying a cup of tea or coffee.
You mildly query the situation and you're told to remember these people have had to work longer hours than expected, are tired, haven't had any refreshments and because of these circumstances have missed time with their friends and families.
Be honest. How would you feel?
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To be honest, if on a Loco carrier 12 hour day you do not have any time throughout the day to take a short break to be able to comfortably eat a meal away from the work environment then you have a serious company rostering issue that needs to be taken up with the company.
Such tight rostering issues are both illegal and immoral. All employers have a legal mandate to afford you, the employee, adequate breaks throughout the working day. Anything else where you get worked constantly without breaks is a flight safety hazard that should be taken up, through the Captain (who IS responsible) to the company management.
Failure to do so becomes the individuals problem as they are not bringing the issue to the notice of the company. I have had to delay flights due to the CC requiring a break to get lunch/dinner etc. Whilst it can be annoying it is also a requirement which I see as good leadership from the senior CC member looking after their team on my behalf.
Such tight rostering issues are both illegal and immoral. All employers have a legal mandate to afford you, the employee, adequate breaks throughout the working day. Anything else where you get worked constantly without breaks is a flight safety hazard that should be taken up, through the Captain (who IS responsible) to the company management.
Failure to do so becomes the individuals problem as they are not bringing the issue to the notice of the company. I have had to delay flights due to the CC requiring a break to get lunch/dinner etc. Whilst it can be annoying it is also a requirement which I see as good leadership from the senior CC member looking after their team on my behalf.
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ff2 - as my nav instructor always said - apples with apples - airplanes are not hotels.
I'm not saying your experience was acceptable but your perception of the situation may have differed from someone else's. As I said before nobody is perfect and the crew may not have been on this occasion but, we all have bad days, and I am sure you wouldn't like to be judged on one of yours. That's why people may get defensive here.
£218 for 2? hmmmmm it costs that for a return train to London from where I used to live in the South West and I was lucky to get a seat. For your money, gravity was defied, and you, your wife(?), tons of metal and fuel, and nearly 100 other people were carried through the air at over 300kts at 25000 feet above the ground, safely - as I say apples with apples please. The fact that people think that is expensive for a flight it the very reason air travel is not what it used to be (and why some, who were about during Imperial Airways days, complain about today's air travel.) - I don't blame you - I blame Air South West. (Sorry pet peeve not really relevant).
I'm not saying your experience was acceptable but your perception of the situation may have differed from someone else's. As I said before nobody is perfect and the crew may not have been on this occasion but, we all have bad days, and I am sure you wouldn't like to be judged on one of yours. That's why people may get defensive here.
£218 for 2? hmmmmm it costs that for a return train to London from where I used to live in the South West and I was lucky to get a seat. For your money, gravity was defied, and you, your wife(?), tons of metal and fuel, and nearly 100 other people were carried through the air at over 300kts at 25000 feet above the ground, safely - as I say apples with apples please. The fact that people think that is expensive for a flight it the very reason air travel is not what it used to be (and why some, who were about during Imperial Airways days, complain about today's air travel.) - I don't blame you - I blame Air South West. (Sorry pet peeve not really relevant).
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Frequent Flyer, surely you're not implying that the purpose of your flight was to "enjoy a meal"? Because honestly I can think of 200 other places I'd rather eat than on an aircraft. 
But to answer your question, if I had paid 200 odd pounds to stay in a hotel then discovered the breakfast service was rubbish or non-existent I would simply walk out and buy my breakfast somewhere nicer. I wouldn't feel too put out as the money I paid was for the bed, not the meal. If the room was good and I had a good sleep hang the breakky. Likewise if I'd paid over a hundred pounds for a flight I'd realise it's the journey I'm paying for not the lukewarm cuppa in a paper cup.
I'm not one to dwell on things much. I've had appauling service in just about every kind of business you can imagine as a customer and always I just shrug my shoulders, walk away and find somewhere better. It's the nature of life for things to go awry and I try to look for the positive in everything.
But to answer your question, if I had paid 200 odd pounds to stay in a hotel then discovered the breakfast service was rubbish or non-existent I would simply walk out and buy my breakfast somewhere nicer. I wouldn't feel too put out as the money I paid was for the bed, not the meal. If the room was good and I had a good sleep hang the breakky. Likewise if I'd paid over a hundred pounds for a flight I'd realise it's the journey I'm paying for not the lukewarm cuppa in a paper cup.
I'm not one to dwell on things much. I've had appauling service in just about every kind of business you can imagine as a customer and always I just shrug my shoulders, walk away and find somewhere better. It's the nature of life for things to go awry and I try to look for the positive in everything.
Last edited by AirborneSoon; 22nd May 2009 at 11:57.
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ff2, not sure if you are deliberately not understanding what people are saying, or if you are honestly not getting the point here.
If the latter, this article might broaden your understanding of the realities at play in modern civil aviation. link
Another thought; yes it was less than perfect. Did you contact the airline to let them know? And if so, what answer did you recieve?
Wobble2, theory and practice are sadly 2 different things.
A less than ideal reality often exacerbated by the fact that national regulatory bodies are underfunded, understaffed and often 'in the pocket' of airline management.
Add to that the current atmosphere of job insecurity and your post sounds faintly pie in the sky.
Also, keep in mind that while labour relations in YOUR company are such that CC can demand and get a lunch break, this is not the case in the vast majority of short haul airlines today.
SH reality is maximum allowable work days, continuous time pressure, no company provided food and certainly no mandated breaks to consume whatsoever.
And a quick tea no bics for any CC (or pilot) upsetting the apple cart with such outrageous demands.
If the latter, this article might broaden your understanding of the realities at play in modern civil aviation. link
Another thought; yes it was less than perfect. Did you contact the airline to let them know? And if so, what answer did you recieve?
Wobble2, theory and practice are sadly 2 different things.
A less than ideal reality often exacerbated by the fact that national regulatory bodies are underfunded, understaffed and often 'in the pocket' of airline management.
Add to that the current atmosphere of job insecurity and your post sounds faintly pie in the sky.
Also, keep in mind that while labour relations in YOUR company are such that CC can demand and get a lunch break, this is not the case in the vast majority of short haul airlines today.
SH reality is maximum allowable work days, continuous time pressure, no company provided food and certainly no mandated breaks to consume whatsoever.
And a quick tea no bics for any CC (or pilot) upsetting the apple cart with such outrageous demands.
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could be worse
the original poster might want to complain about the stroppy cabin crew, but why not also think that if she was stroppy as she was ill, tired or really not wanting to work the flight when imposed on her at the last minute. She could have declined the duty due sick or whatever, and then probably the flight would have been cancelled or delayed even further!
So in a way you should be grateful you got going and got to your destination safely with just a 2 hour delay!
G
So in a way you should be grateful you got going and got to your destination safely with just a 2 hour delay!
G
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FF2 - surley to God you can go an hour without food or a drink! If not, then you had plenty of time at the airport to purchase both before your flight.
Airport terminal catering can be no more overpriced or tasty than an airline served "snack".
Crew should be polite and profesional - but they are human. You dont know the reason why she was upset. (if in fact she was)...
Give the girl a break - what did she actually do? Close some lockers loudly
, walked in a "non relaxed" manner down the aisle , "throw" a seatbelt into an empty seat (now - how did she throw it? If she raised it in her hand and then forcibly ensured it was projected into a vacant seat at high velocity, then thats bad - or did she just "toss" it ie underhand, into a spare seat to free her hands before demonstrating the mask?)
And then to top it all - the music was too loud
Take a deep breath and put things into perspective
Airport terminal catering can be no more overpriced or tasty than an airline served "snack".
Crew should be polite and profesional - but they are human. You dont know the reason why she was upset. (if in fact she was)...
Give the girl a break - what did she actually do? Close some lockers loudly
, walked in a "non relaxed" manner down the aisle , "throw" a seatbelt into an empty seat (now - how did she throw it? If she raised it in her hand and then forcibly ensured it was projected into a vacant seat at high velocity, then thats bad - or did she just "toss" it ie underhand, into a spare seat to free her hands before demonstrating the mask?)And then to top it all - the music was too loud
Take a deep breath and put things into perspective
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I just wanted to expand by sharing with you a personal experience during my time as Cabin Crew - I'm not CC now by the way but the experience has left me with a respect for the people who undertake the role.
We were night stopping in XXX and were picked up from the hotel at a not unreasonable 10am. We arrived at the airport which was experiencing a bad snow storm, as was our base airport, this had resulted in our airline which operates a number of flights each day to and from XXX having several rolling delays due to movement restrictions. As it turns out our aircraft had not even left base yet. As we were handled by an agent at XXX our arrival in uniform put us squarely in the pax firing line. Thankfully XXX airport has lovely views of the apron so many pax could see the problem, however, at least 20 people proceeded to shout at me (and more at my fellow crew), as they did not believe that weather was a sufficient excuse.
Unfortunately our delay rolled to an impressive (!) 4 1/2 hours, thankfully most people were just happy to get out at all. However in that time, as you can imagine, our duties had extended beyond what we were expecting on our first sector of the day but we did manage to keep it "professional".
We returned to base expecting to be told our short two sectors had been re-crewed, however, what we actually found out was that we were picking up some already delayed passengers to take to a destination which would result in a significantly longer two sectors. However we had to do our job.
We got to a new aircraft prepped it boarded passengers who had already been delayed for 2 hours to be told that our base airport had had to close the runway due to the weather for an indefinite amount of time. We continued to provide a ground service with extra food and drinks brought to us but needless to say the situation still went down badly with the passengers - many became abusive and downright rude despite much effort to try and explain the situation.
Personally I was wondering how I was going to get home on return to the UK as I commute a significant distance by train and was expecting to clear after midnight as opposed to 1600 as I was rostered - which meant I hadn't made any hotel reservations as I would usually have done for a late flight. With the prospect of not having anywhere to sleep in my mind I was also being shouted at. I admit my smile faded significantly and my patience dropped somewhat.(and we still hadn't had our last sector which was much the same).
So a 14 hour day (cumulative delays to my roster of over 6 hours) passed full of abuse and me having to crash on the floor of a friends' house who was nice enough to let me in at 2am.
Not a typical day in my career but also not an isolated event - and as a human my ability to smile no matter what had left me entirely.
We were night stopping in XXX and were picked up from the hotel at a not unreasonable 10am. We arrived at the airport which was experiencing a bad snow storm, as was our base airport, this had resulted in our airline which operates a number of flights each day to and from XXX having several rolling delays due to movement restrictions. As it turns out our aircraft had not even left base yet. As we were handled by an agent at XXX our arrival in uniform put us squarely in the pax firing line. Thankfully XXX airport has lovely views of the apron so many pax could see the problem, however, at least 20 people proceeded to shout at me (and more at my fellow crew), as they did not believe that weather was a sufficient excuse.
Unfortunately our delay rolled to an impressive (!) 4 1/2 hours, thankfully most people were just happy to get out at all. However in that time, as you can imagine, our duties had extended beyond what we were expecting on our first sector of the day but we did manage to keep it "professional".
We returned to base expecting to be told our short two sectors had been re-crewed, however, what we actually found out was that we were picking up some already delayed passengers to take to a destination which would result in a significantly longer two sectors. However we had to do our job.
We got to a new aircraft prepped it boarded passengers who had already been delayed for 2 hours to be told that our base airport had had to close the runway due to the weather for an indefinite amount of time. We continued to provide a ground service with extra food and drinks brought to us but needless to say the situation still went down badly with the passengers - many became abusive and downright rude despite much effort to try and explain the situation.
Personally I was wondering how I was going to get home on return to the UK as I commute a significant distance by train and was expecting to clear after midnight as opposed to 1600 as I was rostered - which meant I hadn't made any hotel reservations as I would usually have done for a late flight. With the prospect of not having anywhere to sleep in my mind I was also being shouted at. I admit my smile faded significantly and my patience dropped somewhat.(and we still hadn't had our last sector which was much the same).
So a 14 hour day (cumulative delays to my roster of over 6 hours) passed full of abuse and me having to crash on the floor of a friends' house who was nice enough to let me in at 2am.
Not a typical day in my career but also not an isolated event - and as a human my ability to smile no matter what had left me entirely.
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OK everyone! I'm sorry. Point taken. I was being a little flippant and I've no intention of making an official complaint about anyone.
Having recently been made redundant after 26 years continuous employment as a journalist (is that a chorus of boos and hisses I hear) I do understand what it's like to have to work extra hours when you have other arrangements made.
I just felt this young lady's behaviour was perhaps a little extreme but then as you correctly point out I don't know what other worries she faced last Friday.
You're also quite right to point out a cup of tea is not strictly speaking necessary on the half hour flight from BHD to GLA.
But I was looking forward to it so was a little disappointed when it wasn't available.
By the way when I left the aircraft I thanked the cabin crew as I always do because I know if the chips were ever down so to speak they would do their utmost to get me out of a burning/sinking/disintegrating aircraft and as a frequent flyer for that I am eternally grateful.
Having recently been made redundant after 26 years continuous employment as a journalist (is that a chorus of boos and hisses I hear) I do understand what it's like to have to work extra hours when you have other arrangements made.
I just felt this young lady's behaviour was perhaps a little extreme but then as you correctly point out I don't know what other worries she faced last Friday.
You're also quite right to point out a cup of tea is not strictly speaking necessary on the half hour flight from BHD to GLA.
But I was looking forward to it so was a little disappointed when it wasn't available.
By the way when I left the aircraft I thanked the cabin crew as I always do because I know if the chips were ever down so to speak they would do their utmost to get me out of a burning/sinking/disintegrating aircraft and as a frequent flyer for that I am eternally grateful.
