SLF Ignoring CC. What to do?

[northern-light]

Mobile phones nowadays cause less EMF than those of yesteryear, but unless the aircraft has aeromobile i dont see the point in having them on as you wont get very good reception at 36000 feet!

In case we need to evacuate an aircraft, we have to do it in less than 90 seconds!!! Thats not a lot of time at all. In the case of a 2 class 777-300 it means getting 4.5 pax off the plane per second... If everybody were allowed to use their ipods, laptops, cellphones, blackberries and whatnots, imagine how many things would be lying around the cabin, causing people to fall over, and in turn block aisles and exits... Every second counts!

If we start letting pax get away with using their PED's, soon they will ignore that instruction all together... So if you feel up to it, tell them directly, or contact the crew as soon as practical... i.e after takeoff!

I was deadheading once to Tunis, and we passed through some heavy thunderstorms on approach. The captain told the crew to sit down immediately over the PA. I noticed a pax across the aisle not wearing his seatbelt... I politely suggested that he should put it on, as it was probably going to get very bumpy very soon! He laughed at me and said "Im a frequent flyer..." I had done my part! About a minute later, the plane goes into a nosedive lasting a few seconds! The guy was floating in the air! Then the plane suddenly pulled up again, and he landed with a loud bang on the armrest! I have never heard a man scream so loud! It turns out he had broken his tailbone on the armrest! So much for being a frequent flyer!!!

[A Comfy Chair]

As others have said, the idea of this thread was how to manage passengers who are disregarding the rules/instructions, not whether those rules are indeed relevant in this day and age.

When the CC say to turn off your PDA, that means you turn it off, whether or not you think it is justified.

As a passenger, what can you do? Probably not much. If within a close range you could politely ask the other passenger to turn it off. If they refuse, then if you have the opportunity you could quietly mention it to the CC... but if they pull it out on the takeoff roll there isn't a lot you can do except for wait and maybe mention it to the crew so they can look out for if they try to do it on landing as well.

It is amazing how many passengers will directly disobey an order from a CC member, and it is upto the crew to difuse the situation (which is where the best crew excel... the ability to turn a potential standoff situation into one where the passenger thinks they have won, but the CC have achieved what they want). If they continuously ignore important directions, we can always have the authorities waiting for them on arrival...

[Skipness One Echo]

The day you stop referring to me as "Self Loading Freight" is the day I take you seriously as a profession....

[TightSlot]

Actually, Skipness One Echo - SLF is a phrase that I've never heard used outside of PPRuNe, except once by a pilot, many years ago: I'm sure that it is used by somebody, somewhere nowadays, but not with any regularity.

I won't waste your time, and mine with examples or explanations of why it might be worth taking the role seriously, since they abound on PPRuNe, and must have been already read and discounted by your good self. That's fine - the wonderful thing about perceptions is that they are your own: Nobody can take them away or invalidate them. However, if you could manage to squeeze just enough respect for us, even as people, to avoid coming into a CC forum on an aircrew bulletin board and posting about your contempt for the role in toto - we'd all be ever so grateful.

[EYXW]

Skipness, I am sure it is a term or endearment really!

Strangely enough not long ago I was on an older 737 which had an adverse (though never really dangerous) reaction to a Mobile turned on whilst still within reception range of the ground.

Whilst it is unlikely that your £300 PDA is going to cause too much distress to the £130,000,000 21st Century Jet Liner, it is not up to you to decide which rules are obeyed and which are ignored.

The ANO is fairly clear that disregarding the reasonable request of the Commander is illegal. Whilst our Customers are not expected to know the Law's and Conventions pertaining to Air Travel inside and out (trust me I would never wish Air Law on anyone) I am still confused as to why people instantly start to become a little rebellious when they climb aboard. Perhaps those who are leaders on the ground are not up for being told what to do in the air?

And really are you that important that the email needs to be typed then and there - I mean if the flight had left on time you probably wouldn't have had the opportunity in the first place..... If war is about to break out if you don't get to send that little "sent from my Blackberry" message then why not use the onboard Sat phones.

[Biggles225]

Tightslot
The term SLF was certainly in common usage among the RAF transport fleet in the late 60s and 70s, and I'd assume that it migrated! Ah the days when we had a fleet....!

[shinobi1]

I think you hit a raw nerve there Skipness! And that was from a moderator.

All Skipness is asking for is a bit of respect. SLF is a derogatory remark and if someone used it in reference to me, I might point it out to them in slightly less polite terms!

Remember, this is a public forum and our customers are reading this as well.

Shinobi

[TightSlot]

All Skipness is asking for is a bit of respect

Possibly, but I'd suggest that is your interpretation of the post, since that is not the point raised, and no evidence is presented of a lack of respect, beyond the hypothetical use of a term that isn't used.

if someone used it in reference to me

The point being made is that this is highly unlikely to happen (unless you flew with the military many years ago )

Remember, this is a public forum and our customers are reading this as well.

I'd forgotten, thanks.

[Eff-Ohhh]

The effect of phones from a flight deck perspective

While mobiles may not effect the avionics noticably it is really distracting when we hear the electromagnetic interference when a passenger's phone (or sometimes my phone when I forget to turn it off) repetedly tries to log into the network as we enter range of a ground station. This usually happens on final approach into a really busy airport where radio communications are made every few second, and we need to hear them.

There is also a huge distraction factor during the take off roll when we are watching and listening for each others call outs and possible problems with the aircraft itself. Then, at a critical time (usually at just before V1) you get a buzzing in your ear followed buy the pulse repetitions from the phone in the overhead lockers above row nine under the VHF arials. For those reading who are not normally sat on the flight deck, that sound, can get the heart rate up if the timing is right.

Please, try to remember to switch off your transmitting devices. Thank you.

[ProM]

EYXW

I agree with you on the urgency of these communications. I think with most it is either an ego trip "Look how important I am that I need to make and take calls every second" or fear "I had better check that they haven't discovered that I am incompetent yet".

It is worth noting that currupt people are usually discovered when they are out of office and cannot shield the dodgy data from enquiries as effectively.

Personally, my view when i see these poeple is that if you haven't left behind staff capable of dealing with the problems for the half a day it takes to travel, then either you are too unimportant to need such a staff, or you are incompetent for not developing them to the point that they could manage.

[ZH875]

Originally Posted by shinobi1

SLF is a derogatory remark

Much in the same way as 'Trolley Dolly', or 'Cart Tart' but they still get used by SLF, to describe the Airborne Cafeteria Staff and Passenger Comfort Executives.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I just call'em "ground people'

with big traps

[Juud]

Mr SOE or any other pax taking me serious as a profession (I am not what I do for a living but never mind that) is irrelevant. A bit of respect is always nice, but the funny thing is, I usually get that anyway.

It's relevant for pax to be aware that the Captain is the legal authority on the aircraft. To be aware that the cabin crew represent the Captain when they instruct (not ask, instruct) the pax to turn off their electronic devices, the pax are by law obliged to do as they are told.

***********************

Some people do not want to understand this, which becomes a problem when things get more serious. Those people can be warned, both verbally and in writing, and if they still fail to follow instructions, can be handcuffed and arrested on the spot 'in name of the captain I hereby arrest you' and will be handed over to the authorities on arrival. September the 11th started a new era, and it's good to remember that when you fly as a passenger.
Respect doesn't come into it. Common sense does.

We hate confrontations, but we will confront you if you force us.
Because while we love giving the best service we possibly can to our honoured pax and abhor fighting with the people who pay our salary and keep our airline in business, if we have to choose between being nice and being safe, safe will always win.

In short: it doesn't pay to **** with the cabin crew on matters relating to safety.
In a well run airline, cabin crew on behalf of the captain can and will enforce the safety rules, and you disregard our instructions at your peril.

[Classic]

Oh stop being so melodramatic Juud

In the UK cabin crew can't go round arresting passengers or restraining them at will! You have to get the Captain's permission to do any of those things and even to give them a 'yellow card' warning. And I'm afraid I haven't any intention of giving such permission for a pax who simply won't follow an instruction to stop watching their PDA!

The unbelievably tiny risk associated with such actions doesn't warrant escalating the issue to such a level.

[EYXW]

Classic,

JUUD is just reiterating the training CC receive whether you think it accurate or correct or not. I believe we are ALL employed to follow the rules and to enforce them if necessary.

Whilst I agree I am unlikely to crack out the bondage kit for a passenger not turning off their mobile there are other ways that the crew in the Flight Deck can help to make our colleagues in the back lives more easy - showing a united front on PPRuNe could be one of them.

Everywhere has to draw a line and, I say again, it is not up to Flight/Cabin Crew or the passenger to discern which electrical equipment is okay and which is not and which signs should be obeyed and which not, that is the preserve of the relevant department within the airline - the rest of us just do as we are told.

[Munnyspinner]

Clearly the russians have the answer!

Drunken Flight Attendants Beat Aeroflot

According to Bloomberg this morning, drunken flight attendants beat up a man
on an Aeroflot flight from Moscow to the Siberian oil town of Nizhnevartovsk after he served himself when the attendants refused
to bring his girlfriend more wine. The three male attendants work for Aviaenergo, which Russian state-run carrier Aeroflot uses on some domestic flights. The passenger had a black eye when he got off the four-hour flight and has filed assault charges. Other people on the flight said the attendants dropped food trays and slammed a passenger in a doorway as he left the plane.
The quote was something to the effect ``You understand how coordination worsens when someone isn't sober,'' Aeroflot might reconsider its contract with Aviaenergo if it finds the crew started the fight.

On a separate note, Aeroflot may join Air France's Sky Team frequent flier network soon, which will be great for business fliers that want to collect more points. Personally, I would have been happier had they chosen Lufthansa and the Star Alliance group. As the French might say, C'est la vie

I better make sure Tighslat doesn't catch me! And, where the **** is rainboe when you need him?

[A Comfy Chair]

Classic,

I think Juud was refering to "when it gets more serious".

The point is that a lawful direction from the Cabin Crew must be obeyed by passengers, and passengers need to be aware that there can be consequences if they insist on playing hard ball.

Arrest on board, as you say, is not really an option if the passenger is simply refusing to turn off an electronic device... but going back to the gate and offloading, or having authorities scare them on arrival is.

Usually the threat of offload/going back to the gate is enough to make them turn it off!

[Munnyspinner]

This really boils down to whether the said pax is doing anything that might endanger the safe conduct of the flight or is doing something that is threatening to other passengers or crew. Recent legislation does cover this but the tact and discretion of CC usually overcomes such nonsense.

If a passenger stoically refuses to switch off any device and CC cannot persuade him /her to do so then the matter is for the A/C commander. If the reason for switching off the electronic device is related to EM interference with A/C systems then it could be argued that the commander may be considered reckless to proceed with the flight - return to gate and all the hassle that entails is probably the correct but least palatable option.

I cannot agree that proceeding with the flight then asking the authorities to 'scare' the perpetrator is an advisable option. The commander is putting him/herself in an difficult position as a complainer. Either there was a real risk to the flight - in which case the commander has acted recklessly in proceeding or, there was no real risk and there is arguably no complaint.

The airline rules are defined in T&C of Carriage. A failure to adhere to these policies is a breach of contract. One remedy is to refuse furture carriage or ownward/return carriage. However, this is a civil matter which would not involve the 'Authorities'.

Frankly, I can't undertand why people can't switch off before boarding. Most PDA/phones now have flight mode which I assume means that they stop searching for a signal ( this is what creates the potential problem) and can be used after take off.

I always read the safety card ( to check A/C type and model -it's amazing how different types vary) and listen the the flight breifing even though I am a former pilot and have several thousand passenger flights behind me. If anyone sitting next to me is reading or not paying attention I usually ask them a few pertinent questions about evacuating the aircraft in the case of emergency. Most have a reasonable idea to start with but if you pose a few 'what if scenarios' they do tend to take notice. Anyone playing with a PDA falls into the complacent ' not paying attention' band and needs to be educated.

Once on a short flight from Edinburgh There was a smell of smoke in the cockpit which necessitated a precuationary return. I was fairly relaxed, partly because I suspected the smell was coming from outside (There had been a huge fire in the city the night before and the prevailing wind was from the east, the direction of take off) and because I had confidnce in the flight crew. Interestingly, looking around I could see a number of white faces - the same ones that had been reading the newspapers during the safety briefing. Says it all doesn't it?

[TheMaskedDispatcher]

Dear all,

actually i'd say that you brave boys and girls who put up with the SLF for longer than the few seconds it takes to check them in or board them have very polite terms for the Talking Ballast . . for many of us they are merely a help to trimming the aircraft, a boarding sequence number, and a constant impediment to OnTimePerformance!!

T-M-D

[ProM]

TMD has a point. I've seen quite a few pax that I'd willingly throttle, and I'm not the one on the receiving end of all their demands