BA and Project Columbus III
Joined: May 2003
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From: london
Hiflyer14 said:
Yes. The company is shrinking, 1500ish cabin crew are deemed to be in surplus. BA have served the 90 day consultation papers, to cover VR and CR for up to 2000 heads, if BA don't get the 2000 head count reduction on their terms, then they will simply use CR, so as you say sit tight, and it could be you being made redundant.
They NEED the VR and PT to get their new fleet – but they are trying to convince everyone that they are doing crew a favour! I believe that if everyone sits tight and does not take up the VR and PT, they will then be backed into a corner.
Call their bluff ....or am I seeing it too simplistically??
Call their bluff ....or am I seeing it too simplistically??
Joined: May 2003
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From: london
This just in for information, of course it could just be Willie Walsh making it all up again
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 35,000 ft
DA Dog quoted:
Please can we all be a little less vicious in our approach. I am not a militant member of cabin crew, I am unlikely to strike, I AM prepared to work harder and be more productive - but I DO NOT want to be sat at home on basic pay when New Fleet have been given our work. Is that such a sin?
I seem to remember how when OpenSkies was seen as such a "threat" to Pilots' T&C's we were all asked for our support then, but now however cabin crew are expected to roll over and accept the New Fleet.
Double standards methinks...
Yes. The company is shrinking, 1500ish cabin crew are deemed to be in surplus. BA have served the 90 day consultation papers, to cover VR and CR for up to 2000 heads, if BA don't get the 2000 head count reduction on their terms, then they will simply use CR, so as you say sit tight, and it could be you being made redundant.
I seem to remember how when OpenSkies was seen as such a "threat" to Pilots' T&C's we were all asked for our support then, but now however cabin crew are expected to roll over and accept the New Fleet.
Double standards methinks...
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From: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
HiFlyer14
No, not a sin, but probably unlikely to happen. WW will not see you sat at home on basic pay. Those surplus to requirements will be out of the company.
Your approach is laudable - you are prepared to work harder and be more productive. What you need to do is to tell BASSA to negotiate those changes on your behalf.
If BASSA were to do that, the £xxmillion CC target would likely be met without a great reduction in take home pay, because fewer would be required (esp in shorthaul - think reducing broken links, agreeing to fixed links thus reducing standby numbers of crew; in longhaul think changing the disruption agreement that has cost multi millions this year alone), and those numbers could be taken out of the business by part time etc with all working harder when at work, thus reducing unit costs which is WW's objective.
The time is NOW to ask your reps to explain fully the pros and cons and not just spout out 1970's rhetoric.
BALPA NEVER asked anyone for support in our fight - that would have been illegal under the law of the land. There are/were differences wrt SCOPE agreements (which pilots have but cabin crew never have had). In the end the company came lately upon a legal loophole and triumphed - something that EU Unions are collectively seeking to overturn in the future.
In fact, you could argue that what BALPA were trying to defend with OpenSkies a year ago, and BASSA then ignored, is now coming home to roost for BASSA members BECAUSE you don't have a SCOPE agreement with the company, and hence our OpenSkies fight is now your New Fleet fight and, for you, equally unwinnable in law.
So, in conclusion, I re-iterate, if you want to keep your jobs (and the majority of your current benefite), now is the time to INSTRUCT your union to negotiate the necessary changes on your behalf (they represent YOU after all) before something 100% worse is imposed on you all ...... better to retain 90% of what you have than nothing at all, imho!
Please can we all be a little less vicious in our approach. I am not a militant member of cabin crew, I am unlikely to strike, I AM prepared to work harder and be more productive - but I DO NOT want to be sat at home on basic pay when New Fleet have been given our work. Is that such a sin?
Your approach is laudable - you are prepared to work harder and be more productive. What you need to do is to tell BASSA to negotiate those changes on your behalf.
If BASSA were to do that, the £xxmillion CC target would likely be met without a great reduction in take home pay, because fewer would be required (esp in shorthaul - think reducing broken links, agreeing to fixed links thus reducing standby numbers of crew; in longhaul think changing the disruption agreement that has cost multi millions this year alone), and those numbers could be taken out of the business by part time etc with all working harder when at work, thus reducing unit costs which is WW's objective.
The time is NOW to ask your reps to explain fully the pros and cons and not just spout out 1970's rhetoric.
I seem to remember how when OpenSkies was seen as such a "threat" to Pilots' T&C's we were all asked for our support then, but now however cabin crew are expected to roll over and accept the New Fleet.
Double standards methinks...
Double standards methinks...
In fact, you could argue that what BALPA were trying to defend with OpenSkies a year ago, and BASSA then ignored, is now coming home to roost for BASSA members BECAUSE you don't have a SCOPE agreement with the company, and hence our OpenSkies fight is now your New Fleet fight and, for you, equally unwinnable in law.
So, in conclusion, I re-iterate, if you want to keep your jobs (and the majority of your current benefite), now is the time to INSTRUCT your union to negotiate the necessary changes on your behalf (they represent YOU after all) before something 100% worse is imposed on you all ...... better to retain 90% of what you have than nothing at all, imho!
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From: derby
HiFlyer14
I totally agree with you!
Im glad you posted your thoughts as this thread went very quiet for a while so Im guessing lots of Crew felt the same but were reluctant to voice their feelings in case we were in the minority.
Times are a'changing.........not all for the better but necessary for 21st Century! Its not all about Crew rest. Watching TV today there are working men taking home £100 a week and no sleeping after they clock on!!!!!
I totally agree with you!
Im glad you posted your thoughts as this thread went very quiet for a while so Im guessing lots of Crew felt the same but were reluctant to voice their feelings in case we were in the minority.
Times are a'changing.........not all for the better but necessary for 21st Century! Its not all about Crew rest. Watching TV today there are working men taking home £100 a week and no sleeping after they clock on!!!!!
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From: london
Hiflyer14, sorry you found my post so vicious, it truly was not meant to be, just a plain and simple observation of what is likely to happen with the few facts I have, from a very good source.
You need to communicate your thoughts to BASSA, they seem to make some sense. (ie you make good sense not BASSA) unfortunately I'm guessing if you voiced them on their own forum you would be shot down in flames, a shame really.
All BA employees have hobson's choice really. Negotiate the best deal with whats on offer or face the consequences........bankruptcy and redundancy, at best someone might pick some of the best bits out and keep it running, but ask anyone from Alitalia or Swiss what this feels like, and what sort of T&Cs/pay they enjoy now.
For what its worth BA went shopping for a loan a few weeks ago to see them through the winter, its rumored they wanted £300 million. Not one bank/institution wanted to lend the money, on any
terms until employee restructuring took place.
You need to communicate your thoughts to BASSA, they seem to make some sense. (ie you make good sense not BASSA) unfortunately I'm guessing if you voiced them on their own forum you would be shot down in flames, a shame really.
All BA employees have hobson's choice really. Negotiate the best deal with whats on offer or face the consequences........bankruptcy and redundancy, at best someone might pick some of the best bits out and keep it running, but ask anyone from Alitalia or Swiss what this feels like, and what sort of T&Cs/pay they enjoy now.
For what its worth BA went shopping for a loan a few weeks ago to see them through the winter, its rumored they wanted £300 million. Not one bank/institution wanted to lend the money, on any
terms until employee restructuring took place.
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From: neverneverland
TopBunk said:
The current negotiations are a charade. The proposal is take it or it will be imposed. Walsh wants 'New Fleet' at all costs. It gives BA enormous savings but most of all it ultimately rids the airline of all crew on current terms and conditions and salaries.
It could take 2/3/4/5 years, who knows, but come the day it is cheerio.
From day one of 'New Fleet' all current crew will see a steady decline in variable earnings (approx 10k p.a.) as work is transferred and then.....no job.
Your approach is laudable - you are prepared to work harder and be more productive. What you need to do is to tell BASSA to negotiate those changes on your behalf.
It could take 2/3/4/5 years, who knows, but come the day it is cheerio.
From day one of 'New Fleet' all current crew will see a steady decline in variable earnings (approx 10k p.a.) as work is transferred and then.....no job.
PPRuNe Person
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: see roster
The world has changed. Once companies are used to not booking expensive club world tickets for their employees they will not want to return to that when the eventual economic recovery arrives.
BA can no longer afford its 'cost base' and salaries will reduce for all.
Compulsory redundancy will happen if BASSA doesn't agree something by the end of June.
Who wants to be in the last union to make an agreement, as the deadline approaches?
BA can no longer afford its 'cost base' and salaries will reduce for all.
Compulsory redundancy will happen if BASSA doesn't agree something by the end of June.
Who wants to be in the last union to make an agreement, as the deadline approaches?
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From: LGW
QRS,
It's a well known fact that unions cannot ballot for strike over "New fleet", as it is perfectly legal to start this fleet up. I very much doubt that you will lose £10k p.a. as you've predicted, at least for the next few years. New fleet is starting up with 500 cc. They won't have very many routes to start with. I know the unions keep crying about the high money earning trips going first, but in communications from the LT they've said that's not happening.
That said, however, I do not necessarily believe everything the company tells me. I would be stupid if I did. If I were you, I'd get in touch with your union and get them to ask the company asap as to which routes they are intending to give to New fleet. Hey, maybe you'll get lucky and they'll take away your "non-earners", such as Indian routes and Newcastle, who knows?
The main point is, that we cannot strike over the New fleet issue, whether we like it or not. I'd recommend all Union members to send an email to their rep as to what they are willing to forego from their t&c's. At least then you'll possibly have a say in the matter.
Gg
It's a well known fact that unions cannot ballot for strike over "New fleet", as it is perfectly legal to start this fleet up. I very much doubt that you will lose £10k p.a. as you've predicted, at least for the next few years. New fleet is starting up with 500 cc. They won't have very many routes to start with. I know the unions keep crying about the high money earning trips going first, but in communications from the LT they've said that's not happening.
That said, however, I do not necessarily believe everything the company tells me. I would be stupid if I did. If I were you, I'd get in touch with your union and get them to ask the company asap as to which routes they are intending to give to New fleet. Hey, maybe you'll get lucky and they'll take away your "non-earners", such as Indian routes and Newcastle, who knows?
The main point is, that we cannot strike over the New fleet issue, whether we like it or not. I'd recommend all Union members to send an email to their rep as to what they are willing to forego from their t&c's. At least then you'll possibly have a say in the matter.
Gg
Joined: May 2003
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From: london
QRS, Its taken over 11 years for the post 97 crew to be 50% of the total cabin crew. At a time when BA had high growth and high turnover of staff (4.2%) because people had other jobs to go to. Its now no growth and very low turn over because people don't have other jobs to go to.
Where do you get that you will be 10K a year worse of?? That is a lot of box payments.
The company are offering a matrix of routes to be transferred to minimise the impact on crews average earnings.
I'm just wondering where your "facts" are coming from?
My information is that there is still much on the table about where the money can be saved, either out of your pocket, or you work harder. What will happen is if BASSA says NO we are going on strike, then BAs idea of where the money can be saved will be imposed, the choice is yours for the moment.
FWIW, we are all in the same situation.
Where do you get that you will be 10K a year worse of?? That is a lot of box payments.
The company are offering a matrix of routes to be transferred to minimise the impact on crews average earnings.
I'm just wondering where your "facts" are coming from?
The proposal is take it or it will be imposed
FWIW, we are all in the same situation.
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 35,000 ft
Hi Rainbow - thanks for the support! Yes, I agree there are alot of like minded people out there. Unfortunately it is the voice of BASSA that gets heard above it all.
DA DOG - sorry I was probably a bit tetchy!!
One thing we all have in common is that we are ALL worried about the state of our company and OUR JOBS (Pilots, Cabin crew, ground staff etc.). It makes things very tense! But there is a lot of "take it or be made redundant" being bandied about (onboard as well) and that is quite upsetting too. We all seem to get tarred with the BASSA broom!
So what do the likes of Rainbow. myself and many, many others do? We are not getting any information from either side as to what is happening. Glamgirl's suggestion of emailing what T&Cs you would forego could be beneficial, but is that going to be enough for WW? Will UNITE listen?
It has been suggested that a RE-NEWED fleet and not a NEW fleet is the way forward - but is that what is being discussed? Many of us would be more than happy with that.
How can we influence UNITE when it just seems to be happening around us? The two sides have historically always been at loggerheads, and because of that, now seem unable to see the woods for the trees. The only losers will be us the employees.
DA DOG - sorry I was probably a bit tetchy!!
One thing we all have in common is that we are ALL worried about the state of our company and OUR JOBS (Pilots, Cabin crew, ground staff etc.). It makes things very tense! But there is a lot of "take it or be made redundant" being bandied about (onboard as well) and that is quite upsetting too. We all seem to get tarred with the BASSA broom!So what do the likes of Rainbow. myself and many, many others do? We are not getting any information from either side as to what is happening. Glamgirl's suggestion of emailing what T&Cs you would forego could be beneficial, but is that going to be enough for WW? Will UNITE listen?
It has been suggested that a RE-NEWED fleet and not a NEW fleet is the way forward - but is that what is being discussed? Many of us would be more than happy with that.
How can we influence UNITE when it just seems to be happening around us? The two sides have historically always been at loggerheads, and because of that, now seem unable to see the woods for the trees. The only losers will be us the employees.
Joined: May 2003
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From: london
Fears of strike action as BA tells cabin crew 2,000 jobs must go - Times Online
I'm sure this will do wonders for our forward cash income
I'm sure this will do wonders for our forward cash income
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From: neverneverland
Da Dog said:
Bill Francis has turned down BASSAs offer of New Crew joining existing fleets for several reasons not least that it would take a similar number of years, as Da Dog describes above, to achieve any significant cost savings.
Additionally, the New Crew on new T and Cs will still work the same trip structure as existing crew albeit with reduced MBTs (days rest after trip). This also impacts on the ability to save money by, for example, not giving BA the trip length flexibilty they require: nightstop LAX, SFO and so on.
I say again that an entirely New Fleet with mixed flying is what WW is 'determined' to see introduced. It gives BA complete flexibility over the whole, admittedly small in the beginning, operation.
IMHO, in time, the amount of work that is retained by the existing fleets will dwindle and with it all variable elements of pay. Box payments, over-time, allowances. There may even come a time when existing crew are barely working which could therefore cost the individual a high % of their variable earnings e.g. £10,000.
Bill Francis claims his 'intention' is to transfer work to the New Fleet via a matrix and as existing crew leave at the current rate of 'around 2%.' I don't buy that for several reasons. Not least:
1. Reducing a headcount of 13000 by half would take 34 years at an attrition rate 2% p.a.
2. Any sign of an upturn in the business will allow Bill or his successor to change the key driver of New Fleet to growth and expansion of the airline.
I believe the proposed reduction in crewing levels will impact on customer service levels/standards. At some point in the future BA may well concede this to be the case.
Also, when the opportunity arises and sufficient numbers exist on New Fleet BA could quite conceivably transfer an enormous amount of work over and, as insufficient work remains for existing crew, push crewing levels back up rather than have them sat around doing nothing.
I agree that there are many other cost-saving options yet to be discussed but not as an alternative to New Fleet.
QRS, Its taken over 11 years for the post 97 crew to be 50% of the total cabin crew. At a time when BA had high growth and high turnover of staff (4.2%) because people had other jobs to go to. Its now no growth and very low turn over because people don't have other jobs to go to.
Additionally, the New Crew on new T and Cs will still work the same trip structure as existing crew albeit with reduced MBTs (days rest after trip). This also impacts on the ability to save money by, for example, not giving BA the trip length flexibilty they require: nightstop LAX, SFO and so on.
I say again that an entirely New Fleet with mixed flying is what WW is 'determined' to see introduced. It gives BA complete flexibility over the whole, admittedly small in the beginning, operation.
Where do you get that you will be 10K a year worse of?? That is a lot of box payments.
The company are offering a matrix of routes to be transferred to minimise the impact on crews average earnings.
1. Reducing a headcount of 13000 by half would take 34 years at an attrition rate 2% p.a.
2. Any sign of an upturn in the business will allow Bill or his successor to change the key driver of New Fleet to growth and expansion of the airline.
I believe the proposed reduction in crewing levels will impact on customer service levels/standards. At some point in the future BA may well concede this to be the case.
Also, when the opportunity arises and sufficient numbers exist on New Fleet BA could quite conceivably transfer an enormous amount of work over and, as insufficient work remains for existing crew, push crewing levels back up rather than have them sat around doing nothing.
I agree that there are many other cost-saving options yet to be discussed but not as an alternative to New Fleet.
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 35,000 ft
We are caught between UNITE and Management - who both appear to have their own agenda, and unable to compromise, negotiate or come to any reasonable solution.
And now it appears Pilots just want to constantly remind us of the (disputable) fact that we're all going to be made redundant, if we don't agree.
Can we have something a little more constructive please? I have stated my case, others have joined in and we would genuinely like to have some ideas as to how to make our voices heard, above two very strong-willed groups. It's not an easy position to be in. So yes, I do feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.
And now it appears Pilots just want to constantly remind us of the (disputable) fact that we're all going to be made redundant, if we don't agree.
Can we have something a little more constructive please? I have stated my case, others have joined in and we would genuinely like to have some ideas as to how to make our voices heard, above two very strong-willed groups. It's not an easy position to be in. So yes, I do feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.
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From: Slough
Hi. For anyone actually lacking the facts on our remuneration, take a look at the CAA website. It shows the total cost to the employer. You will see that on average, BA Cabin Crew cost twice as much as Virgin Cabin Crew.
Quite a lot to pay someone who serves pre-heated food. We need to recognise that things need to change.
The data is at http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=1&fld=2008Annual look at Table 1 14
Quite a lot to pay someone who serves pre-heated food. We need to recognise that things need to change.
The data is at http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=1&fld=2008Annual look at Table 1 14
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From: neverneverland
HiFlyer, our representatives are doing everything within their power to come up with options to save the required cash. Rest assured. However, if you feel they are not then you personally need to communicate your concerns.
BA have not moved an inch. I keep saying it.........New Fleet.
Even the current offer of part-time is linked to it. Why would anybody take a part-time contract with so much uncertainty around the implications of the current proposals.
You may not even have a job to do at all let alone part-time.
BA have not moved an inch. I keep saying it.........New Fleet.
Even the current offer of part-time is linked to it. Why would anybody take a part-time contract with so much uncertainty around the implications of the current proposals.
You may not even have a job to do at all let alone part-time.
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: neverneverland
Further to my post above. Several colleagues that have been offered a part-time contract have declined. A decision based, quite simply, on the uncertain implications of how New Fleet will impact on their future, now part-time, earnings.
There is no chance of 2000 Headcount Equivalent crew taking Voluntary Redundancy and/or part-time. So Compulsory Redundancy is a cert.
There is no chance of 2000 Headcount Equivalent crew taking Voluntary Redundancy and/or part-time. So Compulsory Redundancy is a cert.
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 35,000 ft
Imastweardsothere
I don't think there's a crew member amongst us that doesn't realise "things have to change". So I repeat my question - how do we do it when we are caught between a rock and a hard place?
Suggestions and genuine concern would be far more helpful and beneficial than flinging insults and yet more facts that have already been delivered to us by Powerpoint on an Intouch day.
What are your suggestions to solve the problem?
I don't think there's a crew member amongst us that doesn't realise "things have to change". So I repeat my question - how do we do it when we are caught between a rock and a hard place?
Suggestions and genuine concern would be far more helpful and beneficial than flinging insults and yet more facts that have already been delivered to us by Powerpoint on an Intouch day.
What are your suggestions to solve the problem?
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Slough
My starters for 10? We are going to have to face facts that the business has changed, and can no longer afford some of its cost base.
We have to accept that those of us with mortgages may need to alter the term, and to lead a less extravagant lifestyle.
Our Union needs to negotiate, not just to say no. It must negotiate a package that allows us to carry on earning a salary, not throwing our toys out of the pram and having a strike which results in the airline shutting down, throwing us all out of work.
We cannot dump our passengers as the result of a long sector and demand 48 hours off. We cannot continue with our ludicrous allowances system. Why should a breakfast time flight be worth anything different to a lunchtime or a dinner time flight? We do we need high crew numbers on domestic shorthaul flights, when the product has changed significantly?
We need to accept change. We all have outgoings, but our cost is twice that of Virgin. Can we really afford, as a group, having CSD's earning close to £40,000 pa as basic pay before allowances, in a non-working role?
Times have changed. We must as well.
We have to accept that those of us with mortgages may need to alter the term, and to lead a less extravagant lifestyle.
Our Union needs to negotiate, not just to say no. It must negotiate a package that allows us to carry on earning a salary, not throwing our toys out of the pram and having a strike which results in the airline shutting down, throwing us all out of work.
We cannot dump our passengers as the result of a long sector and demand 48 hours off. We cannot continue with our ludicrous allowances system. Why should a breakfast time flight be worth anything different to a lunchtime or a dinner time flight? We do we need high crew numbers on domestic shorthaul flights, when the product has changed significantly?
We need to accept change. We all have outgoings, but our cost is twice that of Virgin. Can we really afford, as a group, having CSD's earning close to £40,000 pa as basic pay before allowances, in a non-working role?
Times have changed. We must as well.