BA and Project Columbus III
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: UK
How many different fleets are there in BA & what does “fleet“mean in this context?
How many different type of aircraft SEP qualifications are held by an FA?
The following answers only apply to LHR....
Does BA cabin crew get a fixed salary at the end of the month, or are you paid per flight/sector/hour?
Do you get overtime and/or extra pay for working on holidays? (or for any other reasons?)
Does it matter for your pay if you report before a certain hour? Or clock off after a certain hour?
How many local nights do you get in places like NRT & LAX, how many days off do these flights generate?
Does everybody work full-time, or do you have the option to have a fixed part-time contract so you can combine work & family yet still have pension and health care?
How many pax per FA in tourist class, and how many Pursers on how many FAs on the 747? same question for what I believe you call Club (business?) class?
Do you get an allowance for down route living expenses, and if so, is this based on the prices at individual slip stations or a blanket sum? Is it paid out separately or included in your wages?
Can you request specific flights and/or dates off, and how big a chance do you have of actually getting them if you do?
Gatwicks system is much simpler, which consists I believe of a basic salary and an hourly rate from check in to check out. I think they also have a bidding system in place for work too.
Joined: May 2009
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From: London
60% of Heathrow long haul cabin crew commute from distant places in the UK and even from abroad-this is amazing, surely it cannot be correct?
I cannot comment on the car parking but 60% of the amount of cabin crew at Heathrow must be 5000+ which is a lot of parking spaces but they would not all be there at once, some would be on days off. I would have thought the biggest problem would be if they do not get on their commuting flights or thier commuting flights were disprupted and they did not turn up for work. I presume the airline insists they commute to London the day before they work and spend the night in a hotel to avoid this which must cut down on thier time off at home considerably.
If they do commute on the day they work they may have to sit around for hours before they report for work and do the same when they finish work. The flight schedules cannot always conveniently coincide with thier duties. They must leave home 5+ hours before they start work if they commute on the day of work.
A take home pay of £1600 pm is not so bad, I work with people who take home less than this and have degrees etc and are not classed as unskilled labour.
If the diff in pay is so great between the two bases one assumes Gatwick crew are not in the same TU as Heathrow crew?
A final point my next door neighbour's daughter is recent Gatwick crew and loves the variety of work, she would not go back to being a nurse for anything. Speaking to her she says she would hate having to do just short flights or just long flights which is the reason she has no desire to work at Heathrow.
I cannot comment on the car parking but 60% of the amount of cabin crew at Heathrow must be 5000+ which is a lot of parking spaces but they would not all be there at once, some would be on days off. I would have thought the biggest problem would be if they do not get on their commuting flights or thier commuting flights were disprupted and they did not turn up for work. I presume the airline insists they commute to London the day before they work and spend the night in a hotel to avoid this which must cut down on thier time off at home considerably.
If they do commute on the day they work they may have to sit around for hours before they report for work and do the same when they finish work. The flight schedules cannot always conveniently coincide with thier duties. They must leave home 5+ hours before they start work if they commute on the day of work.
A take home pay of £1600 pm is not so bad, I work with people who take home less than this and have degrees etc and are not classed as unskilled labour.
If the diff in pay is so great between the two bases one assumes Gatwick crew are not in the same TU as Heathrow crew?
A final point my next door neighbour's daughter is recent Gatwick crew and loves the variety of work, she would not go back to being a nurse for anything. Speaking to her she says she would hate having to do just short flights or just long flights which is the reason she has no desire to work at Heathrow.
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: LGW
Baz,
We do have the same TU, but still get treated differently. It has been made obvious to us several times where the TU has their priority and unfortunately for us, it's not LGW.
For anyone thinking I'm bitter and twisted about this, I'm honestly not. It is just frustrating being accused of it when stating what the difference is, and people assuming we're jealous.
Gg
We do have the same TU, but still get treated differently. It has been made obvious to us several times where the TU has their priority and unfortunately for us, it's not LGW.
For anyone thinking I'm bitter and twisted about this, I'm honestly not. It is just frustrating being accused of it when stating what the difference is, and people assuming we're jealous.
Gg
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 276
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From: London
How many local nights do you get in places like NRT & LAX, how many days off do these flights generate?
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 469
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From: Sussex,UK
Hi Juud,
I'll give it a go, although some answers will only be from a LGW point of view, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, as you've already gathered, the different allowances and agreements at BA are ridiculously complicated and even I don't understand most of them at LHR. Hopefully, crew from LHR EF and LHR WW will be able to add their bits to make a more complete picture.
We presently have three fleets at BA. LGW Single Fleet, which is a mixed flying programme, LHR Euro Fleet covering the short haul from LHR and LHR World Wide operating the long haul flights. All three fleets have different agreements and allowances but all three fleets do night stop in various places.
LGW crew are able to operate on the 737, A319, A320, A321 and the 777, with the A318 also on the horizon.
LHR EF operate on the A319, A320, A321 and I think the 757
LHR WW are on the 767,777 and 747.
None of us get a fixed salary as such, in that it will differ every month. We get a basic salary to which allowances, sector pay at LHR or an hourly rate at LGW, plus other adhoc payments are then added at the end of the month, usually a month in arrears.
Yes we get overtime, but again, it varies between the fleets as the agreements differ. I can't say about LHR but at LGW it's around 14.00 per hour after the first 10.5 hrs. However, that's a very simplified version of it. We don't, however, get anything extra for working holidays, except for Christmas Day and you have to be actually flying, not just down route to get the payment. I have no idea how much it is but don't think it's a huge amount.
At LGW, the only time our pay changes dependant on the time of day, is if we clear after midnight on a straight shorthaul flight, in which case, we generate an overnight allowance. I don't know whether LHR crew have the same arrangement.
Trip lengths vary, depending on the destination and frequency of flights. At LGW it varies from a three day trip, (one local night), on something like Bermuda to a 7 day trip to St Lucia. However, the longer trips tend to include shuttles in the middle of the trip. All L/H at LGW generates 2 days off, bar the 7 day St Lucia, which gives three days off.
Part Time contracts are available across all the fleets, including 75% and 50%.
How many crew per pax is another thing the differs between LHR and LGW. I don't know the crewing levels at LHR but at LGW, it is 3 for the shorthaul aircraft unless the club load triggers extra. That is dependant on the aircraft type, the route etc and has so many variants it would take forever to list them all. The largest S/H aircraft we generally operate on has a max pax load of 147. On the 777, we have a Cabin Manager, 2 Pursers and 7 Main Crew for a three class aircraft and 1 extra Main Crew member for the four class. The Pursers work in the Club galley and the World Traveller galley and the CM has a working position in the services, as well as dealing with any problems.
We do get allowances for when we are downroute, but as usual, they vary. At LGW, we get breakfast free on the Short Haul nightstops, or a voucher towards a meal if we leave before breakfast, but not on Long Haul, plus we get a small overnight allowance on all nightstops. That stays the same, regardless of where we go and the O/N allowances are paid directly into our salary. At LHR, from what I know, it differs in that each trip is worth a different amount dependant on the destination. They also get extra payments for so called "difficult" destinations, although where IAH and DFW come into that, I don't know!
Finally, at LGW, we can bid for trips and days off. It is supposed to go by seniority. Does it work? Hmmm....
Hope that all helps!
Or in other words....What GG said!
I'll give it a go, although some answers will only be from a LGW point of view, I'm afraid. Unfortunately, as you've already gathered, the different allowances and agreements at BA are ridiculously complicated and even I don't understand most of them at LHR. Hopefully, crew from LHR EF and LHR WW will be able to add their bits to make a more complete picture.
We presently have three fleets at BA. LGW Single Fleet, which is a mixed flying programme, LHR Euro Fleet covering the short haul from LHR and LHR World Wide operating the long haul flights. All three fleets have different agreements and allowances but all three fleets do night stop in various places.
LGW crew are able to operate on the 737, A319, A320, A321 and the 777, with the A318 also on the horizon.
LHR EF operate on the A319, A320, A321 and I think the 757
LHR WW are on the 767,777 and 747.
None of us get a fixed salary as such, in that it will differ every month. We get a basic salary to which allowances, sector pay at LHR or an hourly rate at LGW, plus other adhoc payments are then added at the end of the month, usually a month in arrears.
Yes we get overtime, but again, it varies between the fleets as the agreements differ. I can't say about LHR but at LGW it's around 14.00 per hour after the first 10.5 hrs. However, that's a very simplified version of it. We don't, however, get anything extra for working holidays, except for Christmas Day and you have to be actually flying, not just down route to get the payment. I have no idea how much it is but don't think it's a huge amount.
At LGW, the only time our pay changes dependant on the time of day, is if we clear after midnight on a straight shorthaul flight, in which case, we generate an overnight allowance. I don't know whether LHR crew have the same arrangement.
Trip lengths vary, depending on the destination and frequency of flights. At LGW it varies from a three day trip, (one local night), on something like Bermuda to a 7 day trip to St Lucia. However, the longer trips tend to include shuttles in the middle of the trip. All L/H at LGW generates 2 days off, bar the 7 day St Lucia, which gives three days off.
Part Time contracts are available across all the fleets, including 75% and 50%.
How many crew per pax is another thing the differs between LHR and LGW. I don't know the crewing levels at LHR but at LGW, it is 3 for the shorthaul aircraft unless the club load triggers extra. That is dependant on the aircraft type, the route etc and has so many variants it would take forever to list them all. The largest S/H aircraft we generally operate on has a max pax load of 147. On the 777, we have a Cabin Manager, 2 Pursers and 7 Main Crew for a three class aircraft and 1 extra Main Crew member for the four class. The Pursers work in the Club galley and the World Traveller galley and the CM has a working position in the services, as well as dealing with any problems.
We do get allowances for when we are downroute, but as usual, they vary. At LGW, we get breakfast free on the Short Haul nightstops, or a voucher towards a meal if we leave before breakfast, but not on Long Haul, plus we get a small overnight allowance on all nightstops. That stays the same, regardless of where we go and the O/N allowances are paid directly into our salary. At LHR, from what I know, it differs in that each trip is worth a different amount dependant on the destination. They also get extra payments for so called "difficult" destinations, although where IAH and DFW come into that, I don't know!
Finally, at LGW, we can bid for trips and days off. It is supposed to go by seniority. Does it work? Hmmm....
Hope that all helps!
Or in other words....What GG said!
Last edited by jetset lady; 19th May 2009 at 13:20. Reason: everyone beat me to it!
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 1,691
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From: UK
Originally Posted by jetset lady
None of us get a fixed salary. It is all dependent on allowances, sector pay at LHR or an hourly rate at LGW, plus other adhoc payments
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 469
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From: Sussex,UK
Originally Posted by Carnage Matey!
It's a pedantic point but you do get a fixed salary, then allowances on top. I'm sure that's what you meant but I labour the point after hearing so many crew at LHR complaining about doing a 'charity' Paris without recognising that they do actually get paid a salary to work!
nuigini,
I knew I'd miss something off!
Jsl
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 276
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From: London
I also think it's rubbish now when crew from LHR are trying to get support from LGW by saying that everybody will be affected and they should think about it as many from LGW want to transfer to LHR. Also about the secondment from LGW to LHR that it will give the crew an "insight" of what's important to keep.
Where were LHR when they were changing the T&C's at LGW? They couldn't care less! Why should LGW bother about what's happening at LHR?
It's hypocrisy.
Where were LHR when they were changing the T&C's at LGW? They couldn't care less! Why should LGW bother about what's happening at LHR?
It's hypocrisy.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 251
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From: Europe
Glamgirl, CarnageM, nuigini and jetset lady, thank you very much for all the information. Very complicated indeed; a lot there to process and ponder.
If I may be allowed to bother you some more?
Since it has direct impact on workload and subsequent fatigue, both physical and mental, I am very interested in pax versus crew ratio.
In the “lowest“ class, how many pax to 1 FA?
Same for all other classes?
These “extra“ Pursers mentioned by a few of you; what do they do?
Do they have their own pax complement to feed & water, is their role supervisory or a bit of both?
Thank you all again, things are getting slightly clearer.
If I may be allowed to bother you some more?
Since it has direct impact on workload and subsequent fatigue, both physical and mental, I am very interested in pax versus crew ratio.
In the “lowest“ class, how many pax to 1 FA?
Same for all other classes?
These “extra“ Pursers mentioned by a few of you; what do they do?
Do they have their own pax complement to feed & water, is their role supervisory or a bit of both?
Thank you all again, things are getting slightly clearer.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 595
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From: LGW
Nuigini,
Unfortunately it's always been the case of this scenario. LGW gets "sold" down the river, but nobody cares. Any kind of proposed change to LHR t&c's - drama and "must support LHR" cries all over the land.
Personally, I think the only reasons LGW crew would want to transfer are:
- they live closer to LHR so shorter commute
- earn more money
If we earned the same money, I think people would stay at LGW, as it's a great base.
The frustrating thing as well, is that if crew stayed at LGW to fight our corner, we'd have more of a chance of improving t&c's. But because LHR is sold to them as "golden runways", they scurry up there asap to earn more money. I don't blame them, everyone is entitled to do whatever they like to improve/live their lives. I must add though, that a fair amount of people have regretted their decicion and would like to come back, but are not allowed...
Gg
Unfortunately it's always been the case of this scenario. LGW gets "sold" down the river, but nobody cares. Any kind of proposed change to LHR t&c's - drama and "must support LHR" cries all over the land.
Personally, I think the only reasons LGW crew would want to transfer are:
- they live closer to LHR so shorter commute
- earn more money
If we earned the same money, I think people would stay at LGW, as it's a great base.
The frustrating thing as well, is that if crew stayed at LGW to fight our corner, we'd have more of a chance of improving t&c's. But because LHR is sold to them as "golden runways", they scurry up there asap to earn more money. I don't blame them, everyone is entitled to do whatever they like to improve/live their lives. I must add though, that a fair amount of people have regretted their decicion and would like to come back, but are not allowed...
Gg
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 595
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From: LGW
Juud,
On a 3-class 777, we have 5 crew to 240 pax (traveller and traveller +). One is a Purser running the galley, 4 main crew in the cabin delivering drink/food etc. Some people will think it's easy being in the galley (doing "nothing", but if the Purser does the job properly, there is plenty to do)
On 737 with 147 pax, we regularly have 3 crew (one Purser and 2 Main crew). Purser is required in the cabin.
This is from LGW.
Hope this clarifies.
Gg
On a 3-class 777, we have 5 crew to 240 pax (traveller and traveller +). One is a Purser running the galley, 4 main crew in the cabin delivering drink/food etc. Some people will think it's easy being in the galley (doing "nothing", but if the Purser does the job properly, there is plenty to do)
On 737 with 147 pax, we regularly have 3 crew (one Purser and 2 Main crew). Purser is required in the cabin.
This is from LGW.
Hope this clarifies.
Gg
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 251
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From: Europe
Totally clear on the 737; industry standard.On the 777, how many seats in each of the 3 classes?
And out of how many galleys do you serve these different classes?
Does each class have a dedicated galley(s) or do you serve different classes from the same galley?
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: London
Totally clear on the 737; industry standard.
On the 777, how many seats in each of the 3 classes?
And out of how many galleys do you serve these different classes?
Does each class have a dedicated galley(s) or do you serve different classes from the same galley?
On the 777, how many seats in each of the 3 classes?
And out of how many galleys do you serve these different classes?
Does each class have a dedicated galley(s) or do you serve different classes from the same galley?
World Traveller Plus - 24 seats
World Traveller - 216
There are 3 galleys: At Doors 1 (CW), Doors 2 (CW and WTP+) and Doors 4 (WT). That's how it's been done whenever I worked on it previously, which almost never happens. I work out of LHR and most crew get very confused on it!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 595
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From: LGW
Juud,
You're making me think here...
777 3-class: 40 in Club- 5 crew in total (including CM and 1 Purser) - 2 dedicated galleys. 216 in Traveller/24 in Traveller+ - 5 crew in total (incl 1 Purser) - 1 galley in rear of the aircraft.
777 4-class: 14 in First - 3 crew - one galley. 48 in Club - 4 crew (incl CM and Purser) - one galley. 40 in Traveller+, 124 (?) Traveller - 4 crew (incl 1 Purser) - one galley.
Been a while since I was on 4 class, whence hazy on amount of seats in wt, sorry.
Gg
You're making me think here...
777 3-class: 40 in Club- 5 crew in total (including CM and 1 Purser) - 2 dedicated galleys. 216 in Traveller/24 in Traveller+ - 5 crew in total (incl 1 Purser) - 1 galley in rear of the aircraft.
777 4-class: 14 in First - 3 crew - one galley. 48 in Club - 4 crew (incl CM and Purser) - one galley. 40 in Traveller+, 124 (?) Traveller - 4 crew (incl 1 Purser) - one galley.
Been a while since I was on 4 class, whence hazy on amount of seats in wt, sorry.
Gg
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
From: London
Glamgirl,
Unfortunately it has always been like that and it really makes me sad. Some crew at LHR are going on about getting support and sympathy from LGW because our T&C's have to be defended before it will also affect them (!).
I'm based at LHR and this is an ongoing discussion on almost every flight and every single time I have been shouted down whenever I have asked them why the crew at LGW should care because nobody was there for them when they had their T&C's changed! LHR couldn't have cared less as it was none of their business and nobody "would dream of transferring to LGW"!
Unfortunately it has always been like that and it really makes me sad. Some crew at LHR are going on about getting support and sympathy from LGW because our T&C's have to be defended before it will also affect them (!).
I'm based at LHR and this is an ongoing discussion on almost every flight and every single time I have been shouted down whenever I have asked them why the crew at LGW should care because nobody was there for them when they had their T&C's changed! LHR couldn't have cared less as it was none of their business and nobody "would dream of transferring to LGW"!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 595
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From: LGW
Nuigini,
You are so right. I'm sorry you get critisism for your opinions, but good for you for standing up for what you believe. I've even had critisism on MY flights from LHR crew commuting, and that is taking the biscuit.
I would like to point out to everyone else, that I don't believe all crew at LHR are like this, it's unfortunate that a minority makes it so unpleasant.
Gg
You are so right. I'm sorry you get critisism for your opinions, but good for you for standing up for what you believe. I've even had critisism on MY flights from LHR crew commuting, and that is taking the biscuit.
I would like to point out to everyone else, that I don't believe all crew at LHR are like this, it's unfortunate that a minority makes it so unpleasant.
Gg
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 108
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From: Nice
It is apparent the crewing levels differ from base to base and airline to airline.
A while ago I flew LHR-NCE on a 319 with 5 c/c I cannot remeber the split but it was a smallish club cabin of about 20 seats, 2 c/c in club with 3 crew working in the 90 seat or so tourist cabin which was far from full (perhaps they had a large club load on the return hence so many c/c)
In contrast a few days later I flew back to LGW on a 737-400 that was full with again a small club cabin of about 15 seats but only 3 cabin crew on the entire aircraft. I in club and just 2 serving the 130 or so tourist pax. I was surpirsed to see only 2 c/c for so many tourist pax. If there were more c/c on board I did not see them.
Then again more recently I flew from LCY to Nice on a 146 on an aircraft on lease to BA with the crew from the airline the aircraft was leased from. There were only 2 cabin crew. I in club and 1 in tourist. I think the split was probably 30/70, they managed to do the job though, the a/c was about 70% full.
A while ago I flew LHR-NCE on a 319 with 5 c/c I cannot remeber the split but it was a smallish club cabin of about 20 seats, 2 c/c in club with 3 crew working in the 90 seat or so tourist cabin which was far from full (perhaps they had a large club load on the return hence so many c/c)
In contrast a few days later I flew back to LGW on a 737-400 that was full with again a small club cabin of about 15 seats but only 3 cabin crew on the entire aircraft. I in club and just 2 serving the 130 or so tourist pax. I was surpirsed to see only 2 c/c for so many tourist pax. If there were more c/c on board I did not see them.
Then again more recently I flew from LCY to Nice on a 146 on an aircraft on lease to BA with the crew from the airline the aircraft was leased from. There were only 2 cabin crew. I in club and 1 in tourist. I think the split was probably 30/70, they managed to do the job though, the a/c was about 70% full.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 276
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From: London
The crewing level does vary!
The A319 and A320 have at least 4 crew and the number is actually regulated depending on which trip the aircraft is doing and obviously also the load. For an AMS you would have 6 crew (2 in EC and 4 in ET) due to the short flight time and the service onboard.
Go to LGW and you will see that the aircraft always has less crew. Their 777 has either 10 or 11 crew whilst LHR has at least 11 and at the most 13.
The A319 and A320 have at least 4 crew and the number is actually regulated depending on which trip the aircraft is doing and obviously also the load. For an AMS you would have 6 crew (2 in EC and 4 in ET) due to the short flight time and the service onboard.
Go to LGW and you will see that the aircraft always has less crew. Their 777 has either 10 or 11 crew whilst LHR has at least 11 and at the most 13.