BA and Project Columbus II
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WLINS
It would be a start. But, it in no way get close to the target set for IFS/IFCE.
Neither, having said that, would Project Columbus in the time frame desired - that is a longer time scale project.
To achieve the economies demanded will require concessions of a considerable scale from existing employees, imho. It will not be another 1997 sell the new-joiners down the river opportunity.
It would be a start. But, it in no way get close to the target set for IFS/IFCE.
Neither, having said that, would Project Columbus in the time frame desired - that is a longer time scale project.
To achieve the economies demanded will require concessions of a considerable scale from existing employees, imho. It will not be another 1997 sell the new-joiners down the river opportunity.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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WlitS,
to be fair you deserve a higher than average (nominal) salary and the post 97 payscales plus an increment will certainly achieve that for every single rank. You do add value to your role as Crew by being grown up/adults with attention for detail and the ability to engage with our customers. That is how you differentiate and make yourself eligible for premium pay selling a premium product.
In my view you should be aiming at grossly simplifying your organisation. IFCE is massively top heavy.
Just look at the amount of ''Managers'' are walking around. It beggars belief.
Transparency and no silo mentality, therefore reducing the oportunity for people to abuse the system.
Get a good hourly rate that will allow you to go wherever you want so your salary is not trip dependent but you have a basic income + a variable bit that is dependent on the amount of work you do.
Maybe push for a bidding system as an aside to your cost restructuring and get a great number of lifestyle issues sorted out.
Remove some of the archaic rulesets currently in place in case of disruption or short-haul turnaround scenario's. They have no place in this world.
The only problem is: Will your BASSA reps even engage in that argument since ''they'' have the most to lose together with their mates. The bed is made by them and they will try and sleep in it as long as they can. So it's up to you to seek change I think. (I have a feeling that it will be imposed on you if you don't take action, and that is my honest view)
to be fair you deserve a higher than average (nominal) salary and the post 97 payscales plus an increment will certainly achieve that for every single rank. You do add value to your role as Crew by being grown up/adults with attention for detail and the ability to engage with our customers. That is how you differentiate and make yourself eligible for premium pay selling a premium product.
In my view you should be aiming at grossly simplifying your organisation. IFCE is massively top heavy.
Just look at the amount of ''Managers'' are walking around. It beggars belief.
Transparency and no silo mentality, therefore reducing the oportunity for people to abuse the system.
Get a good hourly rate that will allow you to go wherever you want so your salary is not trip dependent but you have a basic income + a variable bit that is dependent on the amount of work you do.
Maybe push for a bidding system as an aside to your cost restructuring and get a great number of lifestyle issues sorted out.
Remove some of the archaic rulesets currently in place in case of disruption or short-haul turnaround scenario's. They have no place in this world.
The only problem is: Will your BASSA reps even engage in that argument since ''they'' have the most to lose together with their mates. The bed is made by them and they will try and sleep in it as long as they can. So it's up to you to seek change I think. (I have a feeling that it will be imposed on you if you don't take action, and that is my honest view)
Join Date: May 2003
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More BASSA paranoia..................
I think they must of been reading PPRUNE
you know that alien place
, To what do BASSA refer??? the physical place "flight deck" or the pilots
The last bit made me laugh
Reports are reaching BASSA that some Flight Deck crew are putting pressure on their Cabin Crew colleagues to accept BA’s proposals to save £82m
Most from the Flight Deck are polite
, To what do BASSA refer??? the physical place "flight deck" or the pilotsThe last bit made me laugh
it is a shame that a few are now jeopardising what has always been a respectful relationship between the Flight Decks and the Cabins.
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Good post Shaka. A lot of sense there.
Top Bunk
An intersting insight, and maybe true. So what savings do you think the crew should give? Where should the new line be drawn in your opinion?
Come on Dog and Ham (sounds like a pub!), stop throwing stones at peoples lack of education.
What's your opinion?
Top Bunk
An intersting insight, and maybe true. So what savings do you think the crew should give? Where should the new line be drawn in your opinion?
Come on Dog and Ham (sounds like a pub!), stop throwing stones at peoples lack of education.
What's your opinion?
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Thank you for a balanced post Shaka. I agree with the vast majority of what you have written. In particular with reference to our top heavy management structure. (Simon Talling Smiths plan was for 1 Purser manager per 15 Pursers. Times this by the 3000 or so Pursers in BA and it would have been a financial disaster had it ever come to fruition.) However the recruitment deed has been done and I would now not like to see another made redundant to save my hide. Simplifying the management structure and utilising the CSD in a mangement role would benefit the budget. Cabin crew managers, in particular Purser managers, duplicate the role of the CSD in any case and this would be a return to a system which worked well.
On a side note here, the majority of cabin crew managers are actually not managers within the BA scheme. They are employed on administrators pay grades (APPG) rather than the management (MG) pay grades. This does not lessen their authority but does rather skew the figures when Walsh talks of a cull of 1/3 of his managers.
Finally. BASSA does have reps who are new contract, a figure which increased after the last elections. I trust they will ensure balance is preserved between old and new in a final settlement.
On a side note here, the majority of cabin crew managers are actually not managers within the BA scheme. They are employed on administrators pay grades (APPG) rather than the management (MG) pay grades. This does not lessen their authority but does rather skew the figures when Walsh talks of a cull of 1/3 of his managers.
Finally. BASSA does have reps who are new contract, a figure which increased after the last elections. I trust they will ensure balance is preserved between old and new in a final settlement.
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And all the while.
From the latest BA news, recruitment section.
BA require.
1) customer experience design and development manager.
2) customer experience service manager.
3) customer experience consistent delivery manager.
4) customer experience product manager.
From the latest BA news, recruitment section.
BA require.
1) customer experience design and development manager.
2) customer experience service manager.
3) customer experience consistent delivery manager.
4) customer experience product manager.
Join Date: May 2003
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Sorry WILTS I will refrain from commenting on your pay , or what I think you are worth.
My posts on here were (are) more motivated to highlight some of the more restrictive, stuck in the 70s BOAC era agreements enforced by BASSA, it was (is) in response to crew saying both on pprune and on trips that they could not understand why the company always looked at Cabin Crew for savings.
The bottom line is the market will ultimately decide what we are worth. We both belong to a Union to help beat the market. A true Capitalist will always point out the market will win in the end.
The company have cried wolf many a time, this time though I think they may really be in trouble, rightly so many do not believe them, time will tell, I just hope some wake up and smell the coffee, doing nothing is not an option. Lets hope the BASSA reps leave their egos at home over the next few weeks.
My posts on here were (are) more motivated to highlight some of the more restrictive, stuck in the 70s BOAC era agreements enforced by BASSA, it was (is) in response to crew saying both on pprune and on trips that they could not understand why the company always looked at Cabin Crew for savings.
The bottom line is the market will ultimately decide what we are worth. We both belong to a Union to help beat the market. A true Capitalist will always point out the market will win in the end.
The company have cried wolf many a time, this time though I think they may really be in trouble, rightly so many do not believe them, time will tell, I just hope some wake up and smell the coffee, doing nothing is not an option. Lets hope the BASSA reps leave their egos at home over the next few weeks.
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Another good post dog.
Especially the part about unions.
With that statement in mind, I would then argue their methods may be disliked, but then BASSA (and Amicus in other instances but clearly in a different way) have worked well for the LHR crew as most pilots on here seem to think they have "beaten the market" pay wise.
Why no comment on what you think "should" happen though? Surely you have an opinion?
Especially the part about unions.
With that statement in mind, I would then argue their methods may be disliked, but then BASSA (and Amicus in other instances but clearly in a different way) have worked well for the LHR crew as most pilots on here seem to think they have "beaten the market" pay wise.
Why no comment on what you think "should" happen though? Surely you have an opinion?
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For those outside BA: BASSA have made a complaint to BALPA that pilots are engaging crew in discussions on the subject of cost savings. They are encouraging crew to take the names of these pilots and report them to BASSA.
Whilst we are all now quaking in our boots at this 'threat'
everyone can reflect on the bully-boy, head-in-the-sand attitude by the BASSA leadership.
Whilst we are all now quaking in our boots at this 'threat'
everyone can reflect on the bully-boy, head-in-the-sand attitude by the BASSA leadership.
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Take names of pilots and report them to BASSA? Ooo! And just what the **** are BASSA going to do about it? They have no jurisdiction over pilots whatsoever!!
Interesting to note that BASSA are resorting to the "Shop your family" tactics of Joe Stalin, and Pohl Pot in their attempts to suppress free speech and discussion.
It also smacks of an incredible degree of dismissive arrogance if they believe that their members are incapable of making up their own minds in a free and open discussion.
Evidently "Some are more equal than others".
Interesting to note that BASSA are resorting to the "Shop your family" tactics of Joe Stalin, and Pohl Pot in their attempts to suppress free speech and discussion.
It also smacks of an incredible degree of dismissive arrogance if they believe that their members are incapable of making up their own minds in a free and open discussion.
Evidently "Some are more equal than others".
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Rather strange than that it's mostly crew these days that start the conversation when they know you are an approachable guy. They are desperate to hear a balanced view rather than the rhetoric BASSA spouts out. It's NOT balanced and this time they will miss the boat by a loooong mile if they don't engage in constructive dialogue.
They should be fighting for YOU, not just your T&C's but for your aspirations, both lifestyle and promotional. They also should take into account the financial health the company is in and the operating environment (market) we compete in.
(We can have the best T&C's on the planet but if the company can't take advantage of the current downturn and is hamstrung by childish unions we might aswell wave our hands in surrender when true open skies are here and we don't have a penny to spare
Standing still is just not an option. These couple of years are a fantastic opportunity but only if we face challenges together)
They can take my name as many times as they like. I'm certainly not going to defend management but that's probably the way it's seen in BASSA's back office.
It makes me laugh but despair at the same time. Time for you guys to speak up methinks.
They should be fighting for YOU, not just your T&C's but for your aspirations, both lifestyle and promotional. They also should take into account the financial health the company is in and the operating environment (market) we compete in.
(We can have the best T&C's on the planet but if the company can't take advantage of the current downturn and is hamstrung by childish unions we might aswell wave our hands in surrender when true open skies are here and we don't have a penny to spare
Standing still is just not an option. These couple of years are a fantastic opportunity but only if we face challenges together)
They can take my name as many times as they like. I'm certainly not going to defend management but that's probably the way it's seen in BASSA's back office.
It makes me laugh but despair at the same time. Time for you guys to speak up methinks.
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Ten west dont we work for the same airline??? If you asked us to share a hotel room U KNOW WHAT WE AS CABIN CREW WOULD SAY!!!! Leave BA crew alone and worry about your own airline..... did u get rejected or something????? PS dont put me on a SID for my comment lol xxx
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"Lol"?? What kind of a way is that to end a post accusing me of some sort of sexual rejection? with "Lots Of Love" and some kisses?
(Please try and use grown-up language if you can. It means people will take you far more seriously)
You clearly haven't been reading this thread, have you? I've been doing nothing more than encouraging the BA crew to "grow a pair" and stand up for themselves rather than be bullied and pushed around by BASSA for their own misguided ends.
It worries me that these guys may well find themselves out of a job because they're being used as pawns in a political power struggle by certain people at a union whose personal ambition to "make a name for themselves" seems to be outweighing their primary responsibility to look after the best interests of those very people that they purport to represent.
(Please try and use grown-up language if you can. It means people will take you far more seriously)
You clearly haven't been reading this thread, have you? I've been doing nothing more than encouraging the BA crew to "grow a pair" and stand up for themselves rather than be bullied and pushed around by BASSA for their own misguided ends.
It worries me that these guys may well find themselves out of a job because they're being used as pawns in a political power struggle by certain people at a union whose personal ambition to "make a name for themselves" seems to be outweighing their primary responsibility to look after the best interests of those very people that they purport to represent.
Last edited by Ten West; 11th Mar 2009 at 00:18. Reason: Clarification.
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I hope not m8! I would say no as it not in our GRP ,,, let the guys/girls who work at BA have their say ... IM Sorry im in BASSA and they do a good job . If BASSA was not there i would be working to CAP371 ....As i said worry about our own airline as we have are own problems.......... over to you BA .....
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Well, that's me firmly put in my place by a 9-post veteran.
Do please try and post in English if you can too. Your words will carry far more weight. This isn't Bebo you know.
Back on topic then...
Do please try and post in English if you can too. Your words will carry far more weight. This isn't Bebo you know.
Back on topic then...
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This telling tales thing is the latest in a line of BASSA gaffs (luggage tags - not for all / name and shame), and rightfully makes people worried about the future, and who decides what comms go out to the members.
Just an observation (one I've made before I would add)...
I realise this is a pilots website (and this is the cabin crew section), but at no point in the rules of engagement have I seen it written that everyone's spelling / punctuation / grammar must be perfect.
Whilst I'm sure many benefit from the corrections offered up, the spirit in which they are done is more often than not of a demeaning point-scoring nature rather than a developmental one.
Well spoken words indeed carry weight. However it's the message in the words that is important more often than not.
Ten West...
Bak 2 Topik
Just an observation (one I've made before I would add)...
I realise this is a pilots website (and this is the cabin crew section), but at no point in the rules of engagement have I seen it written that everyone's spelling / punctuation / grammar must be perfect.
Whilst I'm sure many benefit from the corrections offered up, the spirit in which they are done is more often than not of a demeaning point-scoring nature rather than a developmental one.
Well spoken words indeed carry weight. However it's the message in the words that is important more often than not.
Ten West...
Bak 2 Topik
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My apologies.
I read the word 'Professional' in the title of the website and wrongly assumed that people would be able to make their points in the forum without recourse to personal insinuations, lols and kisses. I'll try again:
*Ahem*
" m8 if u lot dnt start finkin 4 urselfs u r all gunna b flippin burgaz at maccy d by nxt summer innit dnt b sheepz lol lol lol xxxxx"
Job's a good 'un!
I read the word 'Professional' in the title of the website and wrongly assumed that people would be able to make their points in the forum without recourse to personal insinuations, lols and kisses. I'll try again:
*Ahem*
" m8 if u lot dnt start finkin 4 urselfs u r all gunna b flippin burgaz at maccy d by nxt summer innit dnt b sheepz lol lol lol xxxxx"
Job's a good 'un!