Naughty kids, bad parenting, exhausted cabin crew

[Little_Red_Hat]

May I also add.... a few days ago we flew with a delightful little girl who was going as an unnaccompanied minor- whoever her parents are, I'd like to say I love you, because you sent her well packed and prepared for a long(ish)flight.

She had her own water bottle, she had a jacket in case she got cold, she had a nintendo DS to keep her amused, she had some fruit to snack on, she had a book with your phone numbers in it, she had a calling card, and she had her journal/diary which kept her writing for most of the flight.

We didn't need to get her a thing aside from her lunch. She also had the most beautiful manners I've seen in a child for a long long time!!! AND she left her seat tidy when she left! Mum & Dad obviously took pride in teaching her some excellent manners... wish all the passengers were like her!

[Matt101]

fair enough GETA if you're intent on being rude I have to say I'm not particularly bothered. My post is full of typos for which I am sincerely sorry but I did type it on an iPhone which has a nasty habbit of guessing what button I'm pressing.

My qualification us from UCL and is in a science subject as opposed to English also. I wasn't claiming they were qualifications suited to me looking after children.

But that is irrelevant to the thread it was just to highlight that perhaps your judgement on cabin crew is somewhat lacking in any thought and rather a large and unfair generlisation.

I really just wanted to highlight that you owe an apology to all of the cabin crew out there who on a daily basis perform a demanding roll, then at the end of the day, go home and raise a family.

Simply saying thy FA's are incapable of supervising your child because they are mere cabin crew is intolerable and wrong.

[flapsforty]

Originally Posted by GETA

Matt101, I sincerely hope that English is not your first language (it's not my mother tongue which is apparent I'm sure)!
Because otherwise, apart from wondering about the educational standards of your university, one is quite worried about your future passengers once that " move to the other side of the flight deck door " is completed......

GETA, your post is not only condescending, bang out of order and an unwarranted personal attack, it also shows considerable ignorance of the skills a pilot needs to operate safely.

Your profile does not tell us what your field of expertise is, but it's patently clear that you know little or nothing about the operation of a civil airliner.

More's the pity that you feel the need to spout off on this forum (meant for cabin crew) about matters so obviously beyond your knowledge and understanding.


PS : Shock .. Horror.... I manage fine to run the cabin of a 747/777/A320 without a PhD in English.

[Octopussy2]

I've been reading this thread with interest - absolutely see where the crew are coming from when they're dealing with parents who just don't care. Also glad that it's been recognised that there are times when, try as you might, the tantrum is going to happen and there's nothing you can do.

I was thinking of this thread yesterday, on a packed train from Newcastle to London with a 4 year old and an 8 month old (and my husband, thank goodness). Train was completely full, even in first - really felt for the poor bloke sitting by us trying to do some work as we did everything we could to keep both the children happy and quiet for the 3 hour journey! (he was charming and good-humoured, even when the orange juice spilt by my daughter was heading for his laptop...) We worked our socks off to keep them happy/distracted etc - with the result that, when we got off, two people complimented my husband on their behaviour. Meanwhile, Mummy and Daddy were completely knackered and had to open a bottle of wine at home to recover!

I would really hope that the majority of parents are still like us, but it seems that some cabin crews' experiences are very different - tell me, are we actually in the minority now?? I'd find that very depressing.

[derab]

as a freight dog, its interesting to read some of the CC's plights with SLF. There are a few things that have always puzzled me when I take my kids on a flight (I travel OZ - UK and OZ - NZ regularly, sometimes with the kids)
1. why won't someone fit a belt onto that table in the toilets, on a narrowbody you might as well support the kid by putting them, head first down the loo. the table is slippery and the roof just comes in at you, that setup is a recipe for disaster when you are trying to change the bloomin thing.
2. Car seats, why, oh why to the check in staff insist that you cannot take a car seat onto the plane? Once I managed to talk them into letting me take it onboard on a trip to NZ.. Carseats are designed to be locked into place by a lap sash belt (they are in NZ and OZ anyway) .. so I lock it into position.. and hey presto I have a 5 point harness to lock my little angel into position (she was 2 YO at the time).. she acted like she was in the car.. she was asleep before we went through 10,000 feet and slept pretty close to the 3 hours of the trip. Heaven.. I tell you the look of amazement that was on the pursers face (chief steward??) when he realised how the setup worked proved that he had never seen that arrangement used before. and I had a convert..
as you can tell, I am a believer in "strapping em in" if you dont want movement. but I guess thats my freight dog heritage coming out..
BTW.. I loved the posting about the "change this kid" pure mastercard moment.. top marks.

[Pilotinmydreams]

I read this thread with interest as I am taking the first flight with my two and a half year old in 3 weeks. Only a fairly short hop LHR > BCN but it's causing me a little anxiety as his Mum adn I will have to try and keep him entertained for a couple of hours without the luxury of the living room to run around in. Our thoughts are on taking a portable DVD player a couple of toy cars and some pencils to draw with. Anybody got any tips on things they've seen other parents use on aircraft to keep the kids happy. I'm only sad that I won't be able to take him up the the flight deck like my father used to

[west lakes]

Related to this, I've just been listening to a discussion on the radio; where, following a survey by an insurance company, it is estimated that 20% of parents in the UK don't even comply with the legislation regarding child restraints in cars.
What's even worse is that is that, apparently, 10% of this number deliberately ignore the legislation.

[Matt101]

Hey derab out of curiosity which airline do you fly with I know we allow car seats on ours. You can even use them for take off and landing so long as they have a 5 point harness an can be sites safely with the belt.

Must be airline specific as opposed to any regs.

[Little_Red_Hat]

car seats

if you're flying an aussie airline, the rules about car seats are set by CASA. only seats certified by certain bodies are acceptable, and they must have the appropriate decals. So you could have a brand new seat on which the approval decal has been removed, and it wont be allowed to fly.

I think the CARES restraint i linked to earlier was partly designed to combat this problem and also to save mum and or dad from lugging a car seat everywhere.

[bondim]

pilotinmydreams

pilotinmydreams,

I am sure most airlines pilots will be happy to let your child look in the flight deck on the ground before/after takeoff, if they are not busy just check with cc.

talking about parents not caring...
I had this a few years back

nanny sitting in restricted seat with baby on lap for boarding, posh, condescending mother behind her.I tell them that baby cannot be in restricted seat for t/o/landing, so if mother could please have baby for this short time or swap seats...
mother(spoilt b***ch): but I don't want to swap seats
me: fine,madam, then you just need to hold your child for t/o/landing
mother(screws up face):you don't understand, it's the nanny's job!

guess what, nanny had to be moved, mother would NOT hold her own child for 15mins!

[derab]

Thanks Matt and LRH

when I travel between OZ n NZ I take the car seat anyway as it
a. gives my angel that "at home" feeling so she's comfortable
b. I know the history of it and how it works

Its a safe n sound maxi rider, AU and NZ standards
from memory it was NZ from MEL to CHC, but not CHC to MEL that I was able to take it into the cabin.
JQ and QF (when they operated the route) were a no-no, I will be test driving DJ in November.
I could have really used it last time I went BA SYD-LHR as it was our first flight after No2's birth and No1 was having a bad day .. the CC were fantastic, but I really could have done with being able to immobilise her while we were trying to settle bubs..
while I know its not fully legal in the UK, the staff at alamo car rental LHR compared it to their rental seat, and lets say.. i was a bit naughty and kept using our one.. much better quality..

[Little_Red_Hat]

Derab... you could try emailing or calling Virgin Blue to check on their car seat policy... if you're travelling with kids uder 2 I think you have to book through the call centre anyway...

Bondim, OMG!!! What a rude mother, sadly I've heard endless stories of this, particularly in the middle east airlines, mum and dad in J class while poor nanny is in economy with screaming kids...

[cirrus17]

My airline bends over backwards to make sure that children are well catered for on our flights.... all children, regardless of whether they're flying alone or not, receive backpacks, cuddly toy, colouring book and pens, activity book and puppet on the flight.... again, regardless of whether it's a quick hour in the air or 16 hours.
We even have polaroid cameras on board specifically to take photos of children on baord so that they can have a momento of their flight- all free, all given willingly.
The majority of the children are relatively well behaved, and can be sweet to fly with, and like LHR and some of the other posters on this thread, when we get time, we do our best to make life easier for the parents, especially on the aforementioned 16 hours!- we take the babies to the galley for a while, look at clouds out the window with the toddlers, read to them, draw with them, try and give the parents- and surrounding passengers- a break for an hour or so.
However, because we provide so much for children- we even have free nappies, baby bottles, baby milk, baby powder, bibs, spoons, the works, all available, parents just expect it. The above is there for parents when they run out, have forgotten something or genuinely need it. It is not there for greedy people to demand a bag full of free stuff because they cannot be bothered to use their own nappies, didn't think to bring any milk for their baby for a 10 hour flight.
The only thing we want in return is that when we ask the parents to do something, ie, strap the child in for landing etc, it is done.
I have had so many parents refuse to strap their child in because "he doesn't want to". This is not a baby who could be taken on the parents lap, but an 8 or 9 yr old who is running up and down the aisles as we land.
Quite frequently, I have mothers who tell me they cannot tell their toddling son what to do because he is a boy, and she cannot tell boys what to do (only has authority over the girls).
If you are being emotionally bullied/blackmailed/guilt-tripped by your own 3yr old, then what will that child be like at 18, when he has had a life of everything being handed to him on a plate?!

"The look" is only useful when it has been combined with good manners, and good parenting since birth. Most parents on our flights have well behaved children, and if they're acting up, a quick biscuit and juice with the crew at the back can usually solve the problem. To those parents however who take no interest in their children and are bringing them up to be as lazy, rude and spoilt as themselves......

[derab]

Thanks LRH,

no go with pacific blue too.. I will just have to make sure she is in the window seat
she is 4 now and i reckon she could take one of my crash tackles if it came to the crunch.
when she was 2 and terrorising the cabin it was hard to "dissuade her from wandering" in front of other PAX , but at 4 she can reason a little better and is open to a more rational argument.

BTW, I am believer in the "moderate use of non verbal persuasion" so, hopefully "the look" will suffice for the 3 1/2 hours of the trip.
No2 isn't quite walking yet so there isn't the worry of him going for a wander and bugging everybody on the plane, I will leave that till my next trip to the UK.. in June next year will all in tow.. I am thinking I will REALLY have to research that car seat rule.
The problem with that restraint system you like (the CARES system) is that it is air travel specific, you couldn't use it on a train or a bus or in a car, with the car seat, I can use it on a coach with seatbelts, it has a "stabiliser bar" so i could use it on a train (we used it on eurostar in 2005) and of course it works in a car.. with the australian system of a top strap it works bloody great on hatchbacks with split folding seats.
my apologies to people wanting to read about out of control kids, but my opinion is that a method of controlling them is denied to some of the parents that want to create as little hassle for other users of the plane as possible.
also the table in the toilets is inadequate for the job, therefore I am in the camp of the parents that change nappies in the cabin ( I do, and quickly remove the offending article to the toilets) as I think that the table in the toilets is a serious safety risk.
actually, after looking at that CARES system, it looks a lot like the "H" strap I have to supplement the booster seat I use for the 4 year old, it would probably come close to the specs of the CARES system (I might bring it and ask the PAX behind us for the OK) but its nowhere near as comfortable or safe as the maxi rider.

[Parapunter]

You cannot reasonably expect a child under the age of three to know right from wrong. This is why the bleach is in the wall cupboard & the fruit and veg lives under the sink - for now.

The look certainly works on toddlers, but beware the no. The no gets very old very quickly with little kids.

[Little_Red_Hat]

Derab, not sure about all airlines but crew are told not to accept any restraint in the cabin which is not approved (ie does not have the decals as mentioned earlier) Though the strap is similar, as it has not been approved for use with airline seatbelts I can imagine you might get knocked back if you manage to get it into the cabin at all (ground staff would probably say no, that is if you mention it- not that I'm suggesting you shouldn't ) But I can pretty much guarantee when the cc do their cabin secure prior to take off it would get noticed pretty quickly...

Not sure why they won't approve the car seats though... have you asked if it is a blanket rule or is it to do with the model you have? I know in my few years of flying I have only ever seen them used twice...

Good point though about trains/coaches etc... maybe you could invent something to be used across the board and make your millions!

As for the aircraft change tables I agree, they're not the best... a good compromise may be to ask the cabin crew if there is an access toilet on board (they are generally bigger and have outward opening doors) if you brought a portable mat and dont mind putting it down on the floor you might be able to do it that way... bearing in mind not the safest and some crew might not allow it but hey... worth a try if you can't fit the kid on the table... those 737 ones are especially tiny!!

[Little_Red_Hat]

Meant also to add, to the parent who mentioned DVD players.... brilliant distraction tool, and a good number of parents BYO portable DVDs... especially good if your kid has a Spongebob/Dora/Bob obssession as they will tend to sit there catatonic once that DVD goes on

Just be prepared with something else to distract them at top of descent when you have to switch it off... or there will be all round!!!

[TeamJQboy]

Its a safe n sound maxi rider, AU and NZ standards
from memory it was NZ from MEL to CHC, but not CHC to MEL that I was able to take it into the cabin.
JQ and QF (when they operated the route) were a no-no, I will be test driving DJ in November.

Derab, that's strange that Jetstar would not allow your car seat onboard. I personally fitted a car seat for a family last week on a CNS-MEL flight who were pre-boarded (prior to general boarding) and there was no issue. So long as the car seat conforms to Australian standards then we allow it - we even have our own blue restraint straps that attach the car seat to the passenger seat, and obviously the passenger seatbelt passes through the rigid frame of the car seat.

My only theory is maybe the Christchurch-based Jetconnect/Jetstar crew were being lazy or haven't been trained to fit the car seats? I really don't know why they didn't allow it.

[AirborneSoon]

Please don't automatically assume that if the crew say no to your own restraint or seat it's necessarily because they are lazy or just don't want the hassle. Crew do NOT make the procedures and policies they are required to uphold.

My airline only allows passengers one type of 3rd party child restraint and we are NOT permitted to fit it for you. As to why some airlines will allow it and others wont has zero to do with how nicely you chat to the ground crew. And has more to do with things like this...

The level of risk the airline is willing to assume. Unfortunately there are people who will take no personal responsibility for anything and will use any incident as an excuse to sue an airline. Which may include injuries that result from them incorrectly fitting their own child restraint or using one that is not designed for the purpose they have used it.

Space in the cabin. Lets say you have 200 passengers boarding a narrow body (single aisle) jet on a tight time schedule and 3 passengers hold up boarding while they stand in the aisle for several minutes fitting a child restraint. On some jets it's just not possible to fit a child restraint quickly and without standing in the aisle. Preventing everyone else from moving past you. Many airlines have tight turnaround times that really only permit pax walking off, a quick clean and pax walking on. And what if a parent bought a car seat onboard then decided it was better not to use it. Where would it be stowed? It may not fit in the overhead lockers.

Additional training required for crew. Crew are responsible for ensuring you follow safety instructions on board and know how to use the equipment fitted for your safety. As a passenger you will rarely be aware of the amount of equipment we have, and we have to know how to use all of it. Some airlines may find it unnecessary to also train their crew in the correct use and fitment of various child restraints. How many choices are there on the market? Should be all know how they should be used correctly and be able to check you have fitted it right for the protection on your child? As crew I am always very concerned for little ones on my flights and that their seatbelts will serve them in an emergency.

A car seat is not an aircraft seat and a car child restraint may not work as effectively on an airline seat as it would in a car. Aircraft hit the tarmac at 300kph or faster. The seats on an aircraft are designed to take stresses differently to those in a car owing to the greater forces and different centre of gravity. Your car child restraint may be rated to withstand the forces in a car but not in an aircraft causing it to break away in a crash. Your car child restraint may attach to the weakest parts of an aircraft seat, or inadequately (especially if it's the type that requires an over shoulder sash belt to be secured) also compromising it's use. The best survival position for your child may not be fully upright strapped to a seat. And finally if an aircraft is on fire you have less than 90 secs to get out and survive. That's why seatbelts are so easy to remove, even in a fully dark cabin filled with smoke and rife with panic you have a good chance of undoing your seatbelt quickly and getting out.

Passengers have little situational awareness on a flight. I witness this daily as we are just minutes from touchdown and someone inevitably gets up to go to the toilet. They are not trained to listen to PAs, aircraft noises and chimes the way we are. Likewise they are not trained to evacuate the aircraft with a personal child restraint either and may panic, need assistance or end up entangled in the thing. Conditions which crew won't have time or opportunity to deal with.

I know that we all want to think about comfort and convenience when we get on a flight. Your crew want you to be focused on that too. But crew have to be focused on the one in a million chance that something may not go to plan. What you bring onboard doesn't just affect you, it also affects everyone around you. Any item that creates an obstruction to exiting the aircraft quickly is a serious danger in a confined space with lots of people.

[derab]

Thanks for all your comments,

TeamJQboy, That is interesting that you are getting car seats in the cabin. I must have had a noobie check-in girl when I travelled (I also got knocked back MEL-OOL on JQ about a year ago too mindyou).

Airbornesoon, The maxi rider uses the lap belt as the primary anchorage and has a top hook to go to an anchor point, the version sold in NZ is almost identical except it doesnt have the top hook (I personally loop the strap the hook is on over the seatback, just like the CARES system), it is a 1 piece design without a frame (the frame on newborn rated carseats would make the seat heavy and very cumbersome) its rated 8 to 26 KG and has a 5 point harness for the kid. I can fit it onto a coach seat in about 90 seconds and it weighs about 2KG. also it carries AUS and NZS (standards) marks.

LRH, agree totally about the DVD, I have to take a laptop with me when I travel. I have about 10 hours of spongebob, wiggles, dora at al on my hard drive before we go anywhere and a 4 hour battery life, definately good for a trans tasman trip and no discs to lose in the process.
also.. I wouldn't dare change bubs on a communal surface without that waterproof mat and a cloth nappy for any spillages.