Ba, Lcy-jfk

[yellowdog]

Marlowe,

Can you provide a link to the Embraer site mentioning the cancelled JetBlue order? I have searched the website and cannot find it anywhere.

Thanks

YD

[marlowe]

the canx order info is on the jetblue website not on the Embraer one .After rereading my post can see the confusion!!

[Hotel Mode]

and the 190 can be configed to be within the scope agreement

No it cant. It's designed for over 100 pax. The scope agreement is on certified load not actaul config.

[marlowe]

Well then hotel mode looks like BA gonna challenge the scope agreement before 2010 then. BALPA will realise that any challenge to it will result in BA threatening court action, that means BALPA will have to spend a lot of money on something they are not 100% sure of winning and so they wont bother! Hmmm where have we heard that scenario before?

[yellowdog]

Really Sorry Marlowe

Marlowe,

Really sorry to ask but do you have a link to the news story anywhere?

I've trawled through google, JetBlue and Embraers websites but drawn a blank.

Cheers
YD

[marlowe]

yellowdog just go to the jetblue website and search Embraer all the press releases come up there is a report on Jetblue deferring there Embraer order to 2016 well part of that order is now earmarked for Cityflyer.

[Hotel Mode]

BALPA will realise that any challenge to it will result in BA threatening court action, that means BALPA will have to spend a lot of money on something they are not 100% sure of winning and so they wont bother! Hmmm where have we heard that scenario before?

Er no not really, these are UK based aircraft and the court case/EU ruling only applied outside the UK. Additionally BA management reaffirmed the UK scope agreement and all its clauses under oath in the high court during the case. Even they would struggle to wriggle out of that.

I'm not sure why its a bad thing, all the scope agreement means is a merger of seniority lists like the first Cityflyer. The Capts get a pay rise and the FOs get a long term career slot.

[wobble2plank]

Be wary of the words 'seniority list merger' I don't think it would be a merger, it would be integration on the bottom of the mainline list with 'Grandfather rights'.

[marlowe]

Hotel mode i appreciate what you are saying , but with Openskies not being challenged in court because BALPA would not commit money to an action they were not 100% sure they would win, then this does give BA the message that if they threaten legal action then they can call any unions bluff and get what they want.

[Hotel Mode]

Perhaps a topic for another thread? The EU ruling was new law that occured during the dispute and BALPA certainly didnt have the money to test that to the limits, there is no new law to be tested for a domestic dispute so any threat is likely to be empty.

[yellowdog]

Thanks for that Marlowe,

Must have slipped through my usual net of airliner order deals.

And flowerduet, can't see very much bashing, just a informed debate. Admittedly an off topic debate but a debate none the less.

YD

[Human Factor]

So wobble, BALPA gonna back you all the way are they just like openskies?

"Scope" is legally binding within the UK, as affirmed by BA under oath.

"Scope" requires that any aircraft certified with more than 100 seats (why do you think BA aren't using CF pilots to operate the 32-seat A318) is operated by mainline pilots. If CF do eventually end up with E190s, they will be crewed by (probably the existing CF) pilots on BA mainline contracts.

No doubt there will be some negotiation but the above is legally binding.

[HZ123]

Some of you must be grandfathers, there is no long term future in any of these argreements in particular the 'grandfather' rights as eventually they will be challenged as being wholley discriminatory, which is exactly what they seem to be. The trouble with many of we BA staff at all levels of the company, because we have done so little work for so long with masses of time off it is impossible to believe that one day we will all have to awake from this dream. As far as I am cocerned in cannot happen quickly euough.

[TopBunk]

The trouble with many of we BA staff at all levels of the company, because we have done so little work for so long with masses of time off it is impossible to believe that one day we will all have to awake from this dream.

You may be correct in some or even many areas on the company, but I am predicted to have done 897 hours flying in the 12 months from 1 Nov 2007 to 31 Oct 2008. I apologise for slacking for the other 3 hours that I could legally have flown, but our shortest flight is 4 hours 40 to Cairo.

[Carnage Matey!]

in particular the 'grandfather' rights as eventually they will be challenged as being wholley discriminatory, which is exactly what they seem to be

What, you mean the rights that allow a pilot to continue in his existing aircraft command position rather than be displaced by somebody more senior to him? The right that is entirely counter-discriminatory? You do talk some nonsense sometimes HZ123. If you want to participate at least have the decency to know what you're talking about.

[PC767]

Quick question. A citation regarding the delay of production slots for jetblue and embraer may have been established but where is a citation confirming that BA under the guise of CF will be taking these production slots?

[Carnage Matey!]

It's interesting that we've been hearing rumours of a big Embraer purchase since back in the days of BACX and still no sign of one. Just another rumour for the subsidiary airline to get all excited about. Nothing will come of it.

[wobble2plank]

As Carnage Matey has correctly pointed out, 'Grandfather rights' is merely a way of saying that when a company is taken over by another company the the pilots who are Captains on that particular type have the right to remain Captains, irrespective of their seniority position within the new company, as long as they remain on that aircraft type.

Any internal move between fleets will mean that the pilot takes up his natural position with respect to the seniority list, in other words a move to the right hand seat.

What it allows is that the pilot can choose to take a fleet move, a move that would have meant leaving the old company and rejoining the new at the bottom, if he wishes or, as would have originally been the case, remain on the fleet as a Captain.

These magical Embraers seem to be as elusive as the Gatwick A330 beach fleet.

Lcy-Nyc, won't be Citi Flyer. Probably won't be LHR, more than likely Gatwick on cheaper contracts and used to multi mode operandi.

HZ123, can't agree more with the time off for ramp ops at LHR, but don't beat the drum with those of us who have been regularly turning in 12.5 hour days at the controls of an aircraft.

[bunnygirl]

Just to go back to what ranks will operate the route. Have been reliably informed that it will be a Cabin Manager as the SCCM. One of the unions are insisting its a CM, as CM's operate as the in charge on all Long Haul flights operated by LGW crew. And if a Purser was to take it out (Not that they aren't very capable of it). It could mean in time the CM rank could be diminished by management.

I.E Well if a Purser can take a long haul flight thats is Club World only from LCY, they can do it from LGW on a 777. Thus dispensing with CM's and the extra pay they get. Management would love for a Purser to be in charge, but longterm it will be totally detrimental to our careers in terms of promotions etc.

[biddedout]

Many of the pilots (and cabin Crew) in CFE were around when BA bought their original companies (Brymon 1990’s and BRAL 2001). As such and thanks to TUPE, these people retain their continuous dates of joining from their original companies, and in some cases, these dates might even go back as far as Loganair in the 80’s. BA bought these companies for a reason (almost certainly so they could grab their valuable LHR slots). After many years of playing around with what was left, BA seem to have found that their only real interest in regional flying is through LCY. If they have an agreement which triggers the transfer of these people into the parent company from 2010, then their Date of Joining comes with them and with current legislation, neither BA nor the unions would be wise trying to order these people amongst thir colleguesin any way which does not continue to recognise this DoJ. Laws have changed. Just because it was done one particular way for CFE 1 or Dan, doesn’t mean that it will be done this way for CFE 2. “Go to the bottom of the list” just doesn’t work these days and quite rightly so.