Virgin Blue EBA
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I dont think the above statement is accurate at all, safety is paramount. Apart of getting the pax seated is to restrict the danger of a congested cabin during turbulence, people up and about can injure those seated, whereas if the majority are seated that risk can be reduced. In NZ, we are often given a couple of minutes to secure the cabin before we are required to sit, baring in mind we operate in often poor windy weather and on short sectors.
Skycrewhosties... hardly any of your posts make sense nor do you use proper english??!!
Although im not a fan of DJ, I have always commended them for their innovation and for seeming to adapt as they need to. Its a jungle out there and you need to do what you can to survive.
Skycrewhosties... hardly any of your posts make sense nor do you use proper english??!!
Although im not a fan of DJ, I have always commended them for their innovation and for seeming to adapt as they need to. Its a jungle out there and you need to do what you can to survive.
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Hi sebby,
The issue raised, was why dont DJ crew have to sit down when the seatbelt sign is on?
I was just giving a suggestion as to management MAY not want to sit crew down when the seatbelt sign is on. I agree safety is paramount.
Maybe they think that crew are more experienced in dealing with turbulence? Who knows why they make certain decisions, but I think like management most companies, the dollar usually comes first.
The issue raised, was why dont DJ crew have to sit down when the seatbelt sign is on?
I was just giving a suggestion as to management MAY not want to sit crew down when the seatbelt sign is on. I agree safety is paramount.
Maybe they think that crew are more experienced in dealing with turbulence? Who knows why they make certain decisions, but I think like management most companies, the dollar usually comes first.
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Yes you are right with the $ point of view, I know within the QF group there are times when apparently CAA or CASA has given certification to certain crew on the aircraft to be able to stand, eg - safety demo, arming and disarming of doors (these tasks are performed when the seat belt sign is illuminated).
Back in the days of Ansett NZ (not sure if this applied in aus), (and i know this because crew have told me here in nz but i used ot also fly in aus), that seat belt sign at certain times only applied to the passengers and if crew were required to be seated then the captain would inform them to be seated separately of crew. I believe that perhaps this method still applies to a lot of airlines, including DJ. The idea behind it being applied at Ansett NZ was the short sectors and limited service time. So perhaps from this point of view, yes you are correct. I also believe one crew member may stand up to relay jackets back to pax seated in J/C, during taxi in. This is a company policy within Jetconnect, but im not sure how it would stand up against CASA or CAA.
Back in the days of Ansett NZ (not sure if this applied in aus), (and i know this because crew have told me here in nz but i used ot also fly in aus), that seat belt sign at certain times only applied to the passengers and if crew were required to be seated then the captain would inform them to be seated separately of crew. I believe that perhaps this method still applies to a lot of airlines, including DJ. The idea behind it being applied at Ansett NZ was the short sectors and limited service time. So perhaps from this point of view, yes you are correct. I also believe one crew member may stand up to relay jackets back to pax seated in J/C, during taxi in. This is a company policy within Jetconnect, but im not sure how it would stand up against CASA or CAA.
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flytheplanemay - I think you may be missing my main point - that is, it's against the law. It is not merely a bad idea - it is not permitted, under the Civil Aviation Orders, to be moving in the cabin when the presence of turbulence has been defined.
CAO 20.16.3 para 3.1:
"Each crew member and each passenger shall occupy a seat of an
approved type:
(a) during take-off and landing; and
(b) during an instrument approach; and
(c) when the aircraft is flying at a height less than 1000 feet above
the terrain; and
(d) in turbulent conditions:
except:
(i) infants, children and stretcher cases carried in accordance with
subsections 13 and 14 respectively; and
(ii) package dispatchers carried in accordance with section 29.5; and
(iii) parachutists carried in accordance with subsection 16."
Paragraph 4.1:
"Except as provided in subsections 14 and 16 safety harnesses, or
seat belts where safety harnesses are not fitted, shall be worn by all
persons at the times listed in paragraph 3.1. Seat belts and safety
harnesses shall be adjusted to fit the wearer without slack."
Subsections 14 and 16 referred to above relate to stretcher cases and parachutists - not applicable.
The only grey area would be mild turbulence - but DJ's policy is to remain unsecured until it's hard to stand up. DJ management's view on the matter is quite frankly irrelevant - company SOPs cannot override the CAOs. The flight attendants do not have a legal option to remain standing in the cabin - which is why the airline has liability issues when something serious happens.
In short, being seated/secured is good safety practice, but more importantly, the ONLY practice allowed under the Civil Aviation Orders.
CAO 20.16.3 para 3.1:
"Each crew member and each passenger shall occupy a seat of an
approved type:
(a) during take-off and landing; and
(b) during an instrument approach; and
(c) when the aircraft is flying at a height less than 1000 feet above
the terrain; and
(d) in turbulent conditions:
except:
(i) infants, children and stretcher cases carried in accordance with
subsections 13 and 14 respectively; and
(ii) package dispatchers carried in accordance with section 29.5; and
(iii) parachutists carried in accordance with subsection 16."
Paragraph 4.1:
"Except as provided in subsections 14 and 16 safety harnesses, or
seat belts where safety harnesses are not fitted, shall be worn by all
persons at the times listed in paragraph 3.1. Seat belts and safety
harnesses shall be adjusted to fit the wearer without slack."
Subsections 14 and 16 referred to above relate to stretcher cases and parachutists - not applicable.
The only grey area would be mild turbulence - but DJ's policy is to remain unsecured until it's hard to stand up. DJ management's view on the matter is quite frankly irrelevant - company SOPs cannot override the CAOs. The flight attendants do not have a legal option to remain standing in the cabin - which is why the airline has liability issues when something serious happens.
In short, being seated/secured is good safety practice, but more importantly, the ONLY practice allowed under the Civil Aviation Orders.
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We would place Virgin Blue slightly above other airlines as they are innovative, and by the looks of the two cabin crew on U tube which look professional makes this airline fun to work for.
We also heard that the recruitment process is different and lot more relaxed than other airliners.
We also heard that the recruitment process is different and lot more relaxed than other airliners.
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Turbulence is rated into three levels
Slight - continue service with caution
Moderate - service may need to be discontinued or modified
Severe - sit at station or in nearest spare seat
I realise that the company wants to get the most out of there crew but also putting the carts away everytime the seatbelt sign is switched on is also impractical. We are told when we are expecting bumps and we adjust the service accordingly.
The Cabin Supervisor or any member of crew can decide when they have had enough of the bumps and halt the service.
I have not felt the need yet to do this yet. Which could be down to luck or the sheer fact that our service doesnt start till the bumps stop or that the service is over well before the bumps begin.
I generally find that most of the turbulence is closer to the ground. During cruise on most occassions the flying is smooth.
Slight - continue service with caution
Moderate - service may need to be discontinued or modified
Severe - sit at station or in nearest spare seat
I realise that the company wants to get the most out of there crew but also putting the carts away everytime the seatbelt sign is switched on is also impractical. We are told when we are expecting bumps and we adjust the service accordingly.
The Cabin Supervisor or any member of crew can decide when they have had enough of the bumps and halt the service.
I have not felt the need yet to do this yet. Which could be down to luck or the sheer fact that our service doesnt start till the bumps stop or that the service is over well before the bumps begin.
I generally find that most of the turbulence is closer to the ground. During cruise on most occassions the flying is smooth.
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Any more info on this. The pilots vote finishes today I think and early indications were against there EBA.
Be interesting to see if this affects ours in any way or whether the company will continue with it regardless.
Rumours I have heard-
allowance for food in, snacks in, meals out
3% payrise for CC, more substantial for CS
5 day trips
5 sector days under CAP 371 rules
130 hours over 4 weeks
No available pay just overtime once you work over 130 hours
Part time paid pro rata, you get to nominate how much less you want to work
New rostering system to be rolled out
Still waiting for a hard copy to sink my teeth into and discuss with my fellow PPPruners.
Be interesting to see if this affects ours in any way or whether the company will continue with it regardless.
Rumours I have heard-
allowance for food in, snacks in, meals out
3% payrise for CC, more substantial for CS
5 day trips
5 sector days under CAP 371 rules
130 hours over 4 weeks
No available pay just overtime once you work over 130 hours
Part time paid pro rata, you get to nominate how much less you want to work
New rostering system to be rolled out
Still waiting for a hard copy to sink my teeth into and discuss with my fellow PPPruners.
Join Date: May 2004
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Pilot EBA voted down, 87% No vote vs 13% Yes vote
I too have heard the "no crew meal" concept, and am hoping that its not true!!! I already have more than enough to carry without having to bring my own food too
I too have heard the "no crew meal" concept, and am hoping that its not true!!! I already have more than enough to carry without having to bring my own food too
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Good point sinala, do you know what the snacks would be?
If you were receiving a snack (hopefully something healthy), would this tide you over until you could use your meal allownce to buy something?
I guess it all depends on the ammount of allowance you get, I know we are crying out for an allowance as our crew meals are so unhealthy. We do receive fruit and cheese and crackers to snack on aswell as instant soup, I find I generally have this until its I get home or to hotels ec, but feel ripped off that my DTA goes on eating at home and when im away!
I believe Air NZ crew get a meal allownce if they do not get time to consume their meal, and its up to the cabin manager to report whether this happens or not...
If you were receiving a snack (hopefully something healthy), would this tide you over until you could use your meal allownce to buy something?
I guess it all depends on the ammount of allowance you get, I know we are crying out for an allowance as our crew meals are so unhealthy. We do receive fruit and cheese and crackers to snack on aswell as instant soup, I find I generally have this until its I get home or to hotels ec, but feel ripped off that my DTA goes on eating at home and when im away!
I believe Air NZ crew get a meal allownce if they do not get time to consume their meal, and its up to the cabin manager to report whether this happens or not...
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What do we think about the 4 crew being implemented on the 737-800? Do you think it will make that much difference?
I dont think it will make much of a difference to the crew, but I think the CS will definitely feel the pressure.
I dont think it will make much of a difference to the crew, but I think the CS will definitely feel the pressure.
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Crewbus I dont know of anyone who is pleased at the concept... so far from my experiences it presents the biggest issue on turnaround - CS and L2 boarding, R2 at the overwing (during refuelling) only leaves R1 spare - the CS and R1 tend to swap boarding back and forth quite a bit as CS does a fair bit of work during boarding (OBT log on, flight report, bank bag etc - especially on a short sectors day) - so if you have a boarding issue at the front (eg duplicate boarding pass etc) and R1 goes to deal with that, and all of a sudden L2 has a boarding issue too - well the sh*t can potentially hit the fan - same goes for R2 collecting unmins etc.
I can see a lot of delays occuring because of this... not to mention supp payment forms for crews not getting their breaks (even less frequently than happens now)
Any other thoughts?
I can see a lot of delays occuring because of this... not to mention supp payment forms for crews not getting their breaks (even less frequently than happens now)
Any other thoughts?
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Sinala1 - I thought the cart with the OBT and bank bags was supposed to be sealed during turnaround and until crew release. You not following procedure young man.
The best thing to do is understand the processes and try to implement them and fill out an action sheet or a hazard and event report whenever something goes pear shape. The business runs by the law of KRA's and KPI's, so if there is a spike in reports with legitimate issues in them that the safety department has to investigate, it will definately get the attention of management. We can't stop it being implemented, we can only report on and best manage the areas we are in control of.
Totally agree on the supp forms and breaks though!!
The best thing to do is understand the processes and try to implement them and fill out an action sheet or a hazard and event report whenever something goes pear shape. The business runs by the law of KRA's and KPI's, so if there is a spike in reports with legitimate issues in them that the safety department has to investigate, it will definately get the attention of management. We can't stop it being implemented, we can only report on and best manage the areas we are in control of.
Totally agree on the supp forms and breaks though!!
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Originally Posted by BigHairyPotatoes
I thought the cart with the OBT and bank bags was supposed to be sealed during turnaround and until crew release. You not following procedure young man.
A question to the CS's - do you ever, ever get a break? Eg on a -700 (and soon -800
) with 4 crew 4 sector MEL-SYD there is No time at all that you have away from the punters - at least the crew down the back get a bit of down time (after take off, and on descent)! R1's I find on these days get exhausted, and say the same thing - they are "on" all day. Sure its different when there are longer sectors etc, but I am talking about in general. Would be interested to see what other CS's have to say, and more to the point how they are able to achieve these breaks and maintain KRA's at the same time?
Thanks!
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Apparently Yes, CokeCropDuster - not officially announced by the company, but pilot EBA talks made reference to 3 bases (BNE 30%, SYD 30%, MEL 40% I think were the sizes) - and I have heard an email went out to SYD ground crew that, amongst other things, made reference to the establishment of tech and cabin crew bases there this year.
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I guess that would mean bye bye Sydney overnights?
As for no L2X only time will tell whether or not this is a good or bad thing. Yes we will be working differently than before but will we be working harder I cannot say for sure. We seem to survive when there are only 4 of us on a 700 and as a floater I dont always feel that welcome onto a 800 anyway so perhaps this will be better as far as the team goes. Breaks are already in the roster on the turns so you can forget about the sup payment form. No second service on flights below 2 hours, so once again forget the sup forms. The reality is that a fair few of those flights didnt have a second service anyway so lets just be honest with ourselves about that.
R1 and R2 dont marshall so that will save us and if the caterers put that away properly then more time there. All we have left is the cleaning and I am sure that by the next EBA when they reduce us to 3 crew and get the cleaners on they will save some more money.
My only thought is that live to air isnt going to be the saviour that we think. I believe that many people will think the tv is to expensive and wont bother paying the money. Have the wise men at the top thought about this and how they are going to keep foxtel happy. Will we have to increase our tickets by $6 to give the product away.
Also with all the changes happening with our breaks and reduced crew have the wise men worked out yet how expensive it is to pax us all around the country. When you pax a crew from MEL-SYD and the flight is full you are missing out on revenue. Who is accounting for this. I have seen full flights with 4 paxing crew equating to $2000 in revenue gone( 4xfully flex).
I guess you could say I am not happy with the way things are going atm but who is. Its time to start listening to all your employees and not just the ones going into the office.
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The reality is that a fair few of those flights didnt have a second service anyway so lets just be honest with ourselves about that.
I staff travelled BNE-ADL the other day, a 2hr 30 flight that only had 1 service done, and no more than 3 cabin crew walk-throughs done. Why? Because the crew were "too tired", or so they said (not that I asked - I had gone to the galley for a drink and when they realised I was on staff travel, the comment was, and I quote - "damn we were hoping there was no one on board so we don't have to do a second service"). I can tell you now that all flights that I operate that require a second service, get a second service (circumstances permitting, of course).
As for breaks being on the rosters during turns, well time will tell if that happens or not - but then of course crew are going to whinge and moan about spending time in airports!
As for R1 and R2 marshalling well that does not really make a huge difference either way - I am guessing thats been done purely to keep R2 at the overwing on the -800 during boarding/disembarking when refuelling.
So much is going to change, and I for one am looking forward to having an EBA document to read so I can make some informed decisions on how I vote.
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this is a very interesting dicussion indeed!
As crew we can only do what we can do. I do my job very well at the moment and for me personally I WILL NOT work any harder next month. It will be interesting to see if there is an increase in delays as I think on an 800 the days of 15 minute HOT TURNS are over with 4 crew only. I suspect there will also be an increase in "door incidents" at R2 as some people will rush through the disarm/crossck in order to get to the overwing before the stampede??!!
Alas, howver, I think the boat has sailed on this issue as CASA has put its stamp on it and soon our JQ friends will also have to endure reduced crews.
Adam xoxo
As crew we can only do what we can do. I do my job very well at the moment and for me personally I WILL NOT work any harder next month. It will be interesting to see if there is an increase in delays as I think on an 800 the days of 15 minute HOT TURNS are over with 4 crew only. I suspect there will also be an increase in "door incidents" at R2 as some people will rush through the disarm/crossck in order to get to the overwing before the stampede??!!
Alas, howver, I think the boat has sailed on this issue as CASA has put its stamp on it and soon our JQ friends will also have to endure reduced crews.
Adam xoxo