QANTAS - Australia

[mostie]

Originally Posted by RedTBar

Mostie,I'm not sure but I don't think AO gets allowances in hand either

I'm almost certain that AO crew always got the same allowances as those of us at Longhaul.

Their EBA was negotiated by the Longhaul FAAA...........

ravaflava,

MNL is much the same as CTS isn't it ?

[RedTBar]

Raver..What was the pub you guys stayed at and did you guys know that restaurant?

[DEFCON4]

Whoa Silver

While a large component of SYD Domestic is ex LH they are outnumbered by the number of domestic crew in total.While most if not all ex LH crew would have have voted no to THAT EBA..they would not have had the numbers to vote it down.
Lets not start eating our own!!!
Let`s keep the passion,emotion and anger in check shall we?

[DEFCON4]

Deletions

Looks like the mod has been busy.
Pity.
My last post(deleted),while lengthy,was clear succinct cogent and precise with not a lot of emotion.
I thought I abided by the rules.
Its not easy being Green.

[TightSlot]

There were a number of posts that were "reported" (yours was not one of them). The usual pattern is that various contributors report each other, and there is then a sequence of follow-up posts or messages protesting outraged innocence. Welcome to the playground.

Internecine squabbling over who is responsible for changed terms and conditions is both pointless and tedious - it is also impossible to prove who is correct.

There is a certain, awful fascination in watching you tear each other to shreds: Not content with taking on your own employer, union and occasionally customers you guys seem to delight in thumping each other across divisions and airlines. Were you to stop and stand back and then direct your energies to actually dealing with the real threat for once, then your industrial landscape might look rather different. To many outside observers, some of the things that are the most complained about and resisted in OZ aviation are things that not only already in use in large parts of the world, but are routinely operated by those reading the thread.

The QF Cabin Crew thread has been closed, deleted, moved and forum changed more than any other thread that I am aware of in PPRuNe history, and a large number of users have been banned - and still the penny hasn't dropped that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

In the meantime, I'll refer you to the forum FAQ (first thread) where you'll find a link to the moderating philosophy of this forum, with further explanation by Danny. I cannot recommend too strongly that you read and remember it.

[mostie]

Originally Posted by DEFCON4

Looks like the mod has been busy.
Pity.
My last post(deleted),while lengthy,was clear succinct cogent and precise with not a lot of emotion.

None of the posts were overly emotive if subjected to the "reasonable person" test........

[TightSlot]

QED my last post mostie - possibly you would have been well advised to read the guidelines in the link above, and then try to think about them before posting again - you are skating on very thin ice at the moment.

[sydney s/h]

I know there's mainly LHaulers on here, but has anyone heard word how many SH CSM's they are taking in the latest recruitment?

And.. when are the SH VR numbers being announced?

[DEFCON4]

Tightslot..Point Taken

The reasons for all this slanging and thumping are historical.
Qantas international would have gone the way of Pan Am without a domestic feeder network.
It was decided that QF was to buy/merge with Australian Airlines(TAA).
On an employee level..particularly CC not a lot of merging was done..different awards,different aircraft..different culture.
It proved too difficult for two CEOs..Pemberton and Strong.
Had someone bitten the bullet the animosity that exists now would have died in a month.
The industrial relations officer for the domestic union left the longhaul union under a cloud..he carries a grudge.
Mix all the ingredients together and voila.
There aren`t too many places to vent your spleen.
Unforunately for PPrUNE
So you have all this anger, emotion disinformation and misinformation.
But all of this also reflects the toxic work environment that Qantas management have created.
Having spent considerable time on the ground over the years I know we have it good compared to the poor groundhogs that work "in the office".
So for me I just wait til the front door closes forget all the nonsense and do my job the best I know how.
Even so I know that my days are numbered..Sad, but a fact.
In many ways its unjust and totally unfair.
I(and thousands like me) have busted my butt for most of my adult life to create the reputation that QF once enjoyed.
I used to be proud to say that I worked for Qantas..not anymore.
The trough feeding at the top is the thing that makes me most angry.Its obscene what these individuals earn while grinding their employees into the ground.
I dont know of another airline that treats ALL their employees in such a careless cavalier manner.
Change is inevitable..it is the way that it is managed which makes it palatable or NOT.
At Qantas it is managed with all the subtlety and finesse of a train wreck

[stubby jumbo]

Metal Workers

Question for Eden, Pegasus , Guardian et al at the FAAA;

Is it possible for us Long haulers to kick off our EBA discussions EARLY ( as in NOW !!! ) to lock in an EBA agreement for 3 years from Jan 2007-2010.??

The Metal Workers just signed theirs off for 3 years- last week.

The timing for ours next year- post election is at the worst possible time.
1 year before the A-380 delivery

You can bet your marbles that the Monday after the election -the AWA's will roll out faster than the Board move towards a bottle of Moet opened at their morning tea breaks.

Lets move now.....and sign up........and win/win

[RedTBar]

Stubby,
I think this was mentioned at the union meetings,well the one that I was at anyway.It would be possible then for both parties to have a win as you put it but the problem is that the company might have an agenda that precludes such an agreement.

We will have to wait and see I guess..

[Guardian1]

Early Eba

stubby, as Red T Bar said, the FAAA at it's meetings is exactly recommending this. I presume you actually have attended a meeting or you have spoken to someone who has.

On another note, the conclusion of the agreement over the Bonaventure hotel, the LAX allowances and the hotel inspection process by the FAAA and Qantas has proved to be another correct decision by the FAAA.

Qantas has just announced that it will provide the pilots a breakfast in LAX, LHR and Singapore rather than paying them an allowance. This is in retaliation to the pilots continuing to argue over allowance matters.


So while cabin crew continue to be paid allowances overseas, QANTAS has decided to play tough with the pilots.

[Daffy_Duck]

Sapporo Flights

Qantas is operating flights to Sapporo next roster and maybe till March 2007. These flights will manned by LH not SH. I am kiwi based crew (don't hate me) and I know that the slips are quite long, up to 96hrs. It also looks like it is the 767's that are going up there.

Guys, even though your bid book is not out you can still look at the patterns for the next roster using CIS. Go to crew list and click on the pattern details icon, enter patterns that you are currently doing now and see what pops up. You must make sure that the bid period is for the next one- in this case bid period 248. Carmen usually has the patterns for the next roster all ready proceessed around two weeks from the start of the current roster starts. Hope this helps people.

[Butterfield8]

NRT..the exception?

The company has been playing around withh allowances into NRT of late.
Could this be the beginning of a trend?

[RedTBar]

I realise that I am an optimist but wouldn't it be great to be able to rock up for work ,do your job and go home without any grief.

Even if we are able to get an agreement with the company for another 3 years, someone somewhere will want to mess it up..

[RedTBar]

On a serious note..if thats possible.I'm actually surprised that GD has not opened a base for crew in India.I'm sure the Indian Government would love the idea of more hard currency and the cost of crew there would make the annual cost of the AKL base seem exorbitant.

Maybe even bring back the LHR via BOM service again ,imagine the advertising "The spirit of Australia" starts again on the Vindaloo route...maybe I could get a commission on the savings if the idea is taken up,mmmmmmm I wonder if GD reads pprune

[RedTBar]

Cattle-class takes off
The Bulletin
Tuesday, October 10, 2006


Qantas offshoot Jetstar is now offering cattle-class on overseas routes. Get used to it. Qantas believes it is the future of overseas air travel. Giles Parkinson and Nick Tabakoff report.
When Jetstar launches its services into Asia next month, passengers will have to adjust to a totally new international flight mindset. They will have to pay if they want a meal ($17 for the one-meal flight to Bali; $25 for the two-meal haul to Bangkok and beyond), for inflight entertainment ($10 per sector for video on demand), and for a pillow and blanket. The airline's website mentions the features of the economy-class cabin. The spiel is brief: apart from the presence of a water fountain, there is not much to say.

"Everyone wants high service and low cost, but they can't have it," says JP Morgan analyst Matthew Crowe, noting the industry's losses of recent years. "But if you offer them low cost and low service, they will always pick that."

The nature of the international inflight experience is in the midst of its biggest transformation since the Boeing 747 was introduced. The launch of the new "super jumbo", Airbus's A380, was accompanied by promises of creches, sleeper cabins, double beds, cocktail lounges, casinos, and even a small gym. But while much of the media focus has been on luxury flying, and the space age benefits of new aircraft - like the A380 and Boeing's 787 Dreamliner - the real story is at the other end of the market. Put plainly, it is the issue of bums on seats. And the new generation of aircraft are designed for volume traffic: in the case of the "super jumbo", 800 passengers per flight.

Australians have been introduced to the low-cost flight experience domestically over the last couple of years through Virgin Blue, and the no-frills service that is offered by both it and the Qantas subsidiary Jetstar.

The budget carriers have been generally embraced by a budget-conscious travelling public. After all, most people can stomach an hour or two in a plane without food and drink and sitting in a 77.5cm by 52.5cm rectangular space for a few $20 notes. The figures bear this out: passengers carried by Jetstar alone have grown by 30% in the past year: from 4.38 million in 2004-05 to 5.8 million in 2005-06.

But will they be as ready to accept such discomfort on long-haul international flights: for example, a nine-hour flight to Japan? And how will they deal with decisions like: "Do we bring our own packed lunch?" or "Should we fork out $7 for Jetstar's 'comfort pack?'" (the latter includes a pillow, blanket and small personal items)?"

Ian Thomas, an analyst with the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation, admits to some doubts. "People travelling on international flights take it for granted the services they receive will be included in the fare price. With Jetstar, that's not the case. I have a feeling there'll be some teething problems with market acceptance, particularly with inbound markets, but also some outbound markets as well."

He cites family travel as an example: "Imagine a family of four wanting blankets and wanting food. You add up the extras that will amount to."

The introduction of Jetstar in 2004 has been one of the most momentous developments in Qantas' 86-year history. In the past 12 months, Jetstar contributed pre-tax earnings of just $11m out of Qantas' total pre-tax earnings of $671m, but its true benefits to its parent may not be effectively measured on a profit and loss statement.

In an interview with TheBulletin, Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon says that Jetstar's much leaner cost base ensures that the budget carrier has an assured future in a way that a full-service carrier like Qantas does not. The reason is that Jetstar is able to hire staff at much lower cost.

Qantas has inherited Australian expectations and strong unions: meaning one of the few options it has had to lower costs has been to shed jobs. "Jetstar has an enviable cost base, it really has," Dixon says. "The fact we have set it up with such a good cost base ensures it its future."

He makes it clear he sees the outlook as more clouded for the full-service carrier. "One thing that is not possible for Qantas is to stand still," he says. "It will need to evolve, change, continue to take costs out and do things differently. Qantas is making what people regard as a lot of money. But it will need to change, or others will take over."

Jetstar's contribution to the company has been significant - through its ability to effectively shut the door to new competitors, corralling the opportunities of its one and only domestic rival, Virgin Blue, and for offering the opportunity to tackle staff wages - the biggest single cost after soaring jet fuel. "It's given them leverage against Virgin Blue and created options for reducing costs," notes Macquarie Equities analyst Paul Huxford. "They've done this pretty successfully and very quickly."

While Jetstar is a "new" airline, it is one over which Qantas has complete control. Similar past precedents had failed: British Airways, for example, had tried to do the same with the budget carrier Go, but it found that its new subsidiary cannibalised its most profitable routes. It was a disaster that nearly bankrupted the parent. But with Jetstar, it is Qantas which decides which routes it can fly and when.

This way, Qantas has been able to protect its "golden triangle" - the highly lucrative business market that links Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane - while attracting much of the bottom end of the market away from Virgin Blue. Because of its low cost structure, it has been able to transform loss-making routes such as the Gold Coast into profitable ventures.

Already, Jetstar accounts for more than a quarter of all domestic passengers carried by Qantas. Within four years, Dixon says, once it has taken delivery of 15 B787 Dreamliners, it is expected to account for more than 22% of the Qantas group's international passengers as well.

JP Morgan's Crowe says Qantas will face a bigger challenge with Jetstar International, because overseas routes are less easy to define as either "business" or "leisure". In its initial stages, Jetstar is deliberately targeting the "outward bound" market - essentially Australians going to and from their favoured holiday destinations such as Bali, Thailand, Hawaii and Vietnam - but the launch of routes to Osaka next March will be the first test of a new brand in the highly competitive and brand-conscious inbound market.

Thomas believes taking the short-haul product and trying to adapt it to international routes is the biggest challenge for the airline, as is the potential substitution of Qantas routes with Jetstar. "Tasmanians didn't like it when Jetstar took over many of their routes; imagine what the rest of the world would think." Will there be a rebellion against the low-cost model for international flights: either through people avoiding flights or bringing picnics on board? Thomas thinks not, suggesting airlines and passengers will reach a happy medium: "They want to encourage you to buy the onboard stuff. Planes aren't built for picnics."

Some analysts warn against going overboard with the low-cost model in Asia. Peter Negline, analyst at JP Morgan's Hong Kong office, says: "If you understand the Asian psychology, there is a certain part of the population that will want to pay premium." He notes that low-cost airlines have not been as dominant in Asia as they had in Europe.

There is talk that Jetstar might one day be spun off by Qantas. Thomas is doubtful that such a move would occur, at least anytime soon, noting that Jetstar is effectively subsidised by its parent through insurance, hedging and the purchase of group items such as planes. Analysts also note that any sale could also mean that Qantas is able to exercise less control over the routes that Jetstar flies.

Qantas CFO Peter Gregg said in a speech earlier this year that Jetstar had "challenged many of the assumptions we might once have held about the way we do business". Might Jetstar one day become the dominant brand for the airline, leaving Qantas as a signature premium brand on traditional routes to London, the US and between Australia's major cities?

Dixon hints that anything is possible: "Qantas has no inherent right to longevity. It's got to get its cost structure right, and make sure it continues to compete in an industry with a level playing field." He points to his industry's uncertainties: "I don't think anyone can predict the future of aviation. Would anyone have thought 20 years ago Pan Am and TWA would no longer be with us?"

Because of the tenuousness of airlines, Dixon is unapologetic about his tough approach to costs and regulation. "I want to leave it just as a viable company. I have a very good management team. They're all 10 years or more younger than I am. I don't think any of them have any illusions about what they'll have to continue to do.

"No company will survive in any industry unless you've got your costs right. Everything's so global - you'll have to compete on a vast playing field."

Crowe says the outlook for Qantas is as good as it has been for several years. It remains one of the most profitable airlines in the world. The arrival of the B787 Dreamliners - built of composite materials and therefore lighter, stronger and more fuel-efficient - will result in lower costs. Dixon estimates they will be 25% lower than for other planes.

Even the delays in the delivery of A380s announced by Airbus last week (Qantas was due to get 12 with options over another dozen) is not altogether bad news for the airline's shareholders. It will mean most airlines who committed to the new aircraft will be struggling to meet passenger demand in two to three years' time. Crowe suggests we might be queuing for a seat. In analyst talk, that creates a "strong yield environment".

For the rest of us, it means higher air fares, and a longer queue at the water fountain.

[speedbirdhouse]

Dixon and his cronies are deluded fools.

How on earth are they going to get jetscar international's cost base below that of the developing countries flag carriers?????

Why would anyone in their right mind get excited at the prospect of buying the basics such as food, drink, pillows and blankets on jetscar when they have the option of FULL SERVICE offerings from airlines like Thai, Malaysian and the like for much the same price ?

Not to mention the cultural reasons why the majority of our "status conscious" Asian neighbours wouldn't be seen dead flying on a bugdet carrier.

The board are fools for allowing dixon free reign with Qantas's profits to chase the price sensitive, low yield, backpacker market.

I just hope that dixon's ego driven folly wont end up being Qantas's downfall.........

[mostie]

Originally Posted by speedbirdhouse

The board are fools for allowing dixon free reign with Qantas's profits to chase the price sensitive, low yield, backpacker market.

With Emirates lobbying to double their access into Australia from 42 flights a week offering 22 one stop European destinations and Singapore Airlines about to completely revamp their J/C and P/C cabins together with the introduction of 1000 channel 5th generation VOD entertainment system where does that leave Qantas??

Unreliable 2nd generation AVOD on SOME aircraft. Shabby, clapped out P/C cabins and NO long term strategy.......

Just the same old, same old. Maximize short term profits to secure executive bonuses together with QF's reputation as the worlds most profitable airline and to hell with the future.

Staff with any shares might be well served to sell them now.

[stubby jumbo]

How very, very sad

Quote: "Because of the tenuousness of airlines, Dixon is unapologetic about his tough approach to costs and regulation. "I want to leave it just as a viable company. I have a very good management team. They're all 10 years or more younger than I am. I don't think any of them have any illusions about what they'll have to continue to do."

After trawling my way thru this article the reality again hit me that this current management team do not give a toss for their PEOPLE.

Not once is there any where in this article -a mention of the people adapting to change to help build and grow this airline.
The ONLY mention is the management team.

Its all about the numbers, the dollars.

One day ( soon ) this is all going to bite someone on the the bit that attaches to a seat.

Agree..........time to cash in your shares-Xmas is coming!!