DJ: 4 crew on 737-800 next year?
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737NG_Girl, Thanks for your answer on that one. It helps put things into perspective. I can only assume that for a full service airline (eg QF) the service can be achieved a lot faster as you are simply grabbing a tray from the cart and handing to each passenger. This compared to the variations you get from each passenger in the Virgin Blue scenario means the service must take you a lot longer.
In relation to a mid-duty sick scenario, doesn't that issue already exist for the 700's where there are already 4 crew? One goes sick and bam, the aircraft is grounded until they can pull in a reserve, find a relief crew if they at a regional or wait for another crew to be flown in and hope the original crew still have hours left to get home. The new 800 with 4 crew means that instead of having 144 really really happy pax there is now 180 pax.
The 'work smarter not harder' approach is fine in terms of improving the way crew perform their duties so that it makes it easier for them. But why did they wait for the change in crew numbers. Why wasn't this kind of thing being looked at before to help the crew out. Why does it always need to be a transaction: you give us something we give you something. I thought we were all working for the same company at the end of the day.
In relation to a mid-duty sick scenario, doesn't that issue already exist for the 700's where there are already 4 crew? One goes sick and bam, the aircraft is grounded until they can pull in a reserve, find a relief crew if they at a regional or wait for another crew to be flown in and hope the original crew still have hours left to get home. The new 800 with 4 crew means that instead of having 144 really really happy pax there is now 180 pax.
The 'work smarter not harder' approach is fine in terms of improving the way crew perform their duties so that it makes it easier for them. But why did they wait for the change in crew numbers. Why wasn't this kind of thing being looked at before to help the crew out. Why does it always need to be a transaction: you give us something we give you something. I thought we were all working for the same company at the end of the day.
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We hardly just offer a tray to every pax. The pax also chooses from a beverage, which isnt as simple for most people as you may think 
, mainly because when people are getting something for free they tend to take a bit longer to decide.
In the case that its a non breakfast service, we follow the "tray delivering service" with tea and coffee, whilst juggling numerous 2nd drink requests, and then the desert service. On a 737 with just 2 crew "handing out trays" this can take up to 1.5 hours. Clearing in, which is usually done before ice creams, is done with up to 3 carts.
Im not saying any service is easier than the next but dont brush off the fact that a full service carrier just hand out meals to everyone which would make it easier. I also rearrange the tray with small gestures, eg moving the tea cup handle outwards. Every second counts when you're on a full flight and you're still clearing in when top of decent comes!
, mainly because when people are getting something for free they tend to take a bit longer to decide.In the case that its a non breakfast service, we follow the "tray delivering service" with tea and coffee, whilst juggling numerous 2nd drink requests, and then the desert service. On a 737 with just 2 crew "handing out trays" this can take up to 1.5 hours. Clearing in, which is usually done before ice creams, is done with up to 3 carts.
Im not saying any service is easier than the next but dont brush off the fact that a full service carrier just hand out meals to everyone which would make it easier. I also rearrange the tray with small gestures, eg moving the tea cup handle outwards. Every second counts when you're on a full flight and you're still clearing in when top of decent comes!
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off track..
Everyone:
We are losing the issue here - all carriers work differently, some work harder inflight while some work harder on turn around, we are comparing apples and oranges with this discussion - this thread is about VB getting an exemption to reduce crew compliment on the aircraft. I am certain those of you at other oz carriers will feel the flow on affect of this, but for the mean time can we stick to VB and what this new rule is going to mean for VB CC and our working conditions?
Many Thanks,
Adam
We are losing the issue here - all carriers work differently, some work harder inflight while some work harder on turn around, we are comparing apples and oranges with this discussion - this thread is about VB getting an exemption to reduce crew compliment on the aircraft. I am certain those of you at other oz carriers will feel the flow on affect of this, but for the mean time can we stick to VB and what this new rule is going to mean for VB CC and our working conditions?
Many Thanks,
Adam
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i work for a full service airline in the usa and we have min crew on most flights..a 737-300/500/700 is 3 crew and a 737-800/900 is 4 crew..works just fine and we serve drinks and meals!
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[quote=adam_ant;2920345]Thanks Sinala1 for the Casa document. I delivered the new 'over the top' overwing brief the other day and was shocked at how detailed it was. I felt like it was in too much detail and could possibly scare nervous flyers who were listening in. Reading the CASA thing - I see now that overwing pax need to be actually briefed in gory detail on when/how to opertate the exit. It would have been nice if the company had explained the reason for the change to us. Without explanation, most crew will stick with the old brief - which will be a violation of the exemption!
I agree that this was 'timed perfectly', but realistically the new brief is a step up in my opinion. Is L2X really EVER going to get to the overwing except in an Alert? Would love to see them fight against 90 people trying to head the other way.
I agree that this was 'timed perfectly', but realistically the new brief is a step up in my opinion. Is L2X really EVER going to get to the overwing except in an Alert? Would love to see them fight against 90 people trying to head the other way.
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Thankyou Adam_Ant, I thought I was the only one who felt the thread was drifting away from the reason it was started!
737opsguy I think you missed 737NG_Girl's point - my understanding was say for eg the B738 with 4 crew goes up to BME and a crewmember goes sick on turnaround. Unfortunately relief crew, for whatever reason, is unable to fly that day - so instead of being able to take off one crewmember and cap the flight, the a/c is grounded and the whole crew is stuck in BME. (erm although I have heard the Cable Beach Club is quite lovely
) - so there is no longer the redundancy that was there in the event of mid duty sickness. I agree the -700 is already like that, but still it was nice having a bit of backup on the -800
737opsguy I think you missed 737NG_Girl's point - my understanding was say for eg the B738 with 4 crew goes up to BME and a crewmember goes sick on turnaround. Unfortunately relief crew, for whatever reason, is unable to fly that day - so instead of being able to take off one crewmember and cap the flight, the a/c is grounded and the whole crew is stuck in BME. (erm although I have heard the Cable Beach Club is quite lovely
) - so there is no longer the redundancy that was there in the event of mid duty sickness. I agree the -700 is already like that, but still it was nice having a bit of backup on the -800
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There was an interesting discussion in the D & G General Aviation & Questions forum last November that is related, at least to the overwing exit issue. However, the thread has been archived and you can only seem to get it through Google now.
Anyway, here is the quick link:
Boeing 737 series 700 and 800 emergency exit rows
Anyway, here is the quick link:
Boeing 737 series 700 and 800 emergency exit rows
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I agree that it was always highly unlikely that L2X was going to get the overwing. I also agree that the brief is probably more effective despite its tone. Of course the new proceedure will now marry with that on the 700 - L2 will open L2, start the flow of pax evac. and then make her way to the overwing to direct the opening of the overwing exit - now THAT will be impossible. I laugh everytime I read that!
Its sounds to me that worldwide the overwing is a right off as far as CASA,FAA etc are concerned if not crew are required to be there for evac.
On a personal note - I wont miss L2X - always hated standing in everyones way during disembarkation - and never enjoyed the solitude of 'floating'.
Its sounds to me that worldwide the overwing is a right off as far as CASA,FAA etc are concerned if not crew are required to be there for evac.
On a personal note - I wont miss L2X - always hated standing in everyones way during disembarkation - and never enjoyed the solitude of 'floating'.
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1:50
There are many issues with this ratio, yes airlines in nz operate a 300 with 3 crew, their flight times are over 2 hours, imagine trying to do a 4 sector mel lst mel 45 mins, and mel cbr mel 45 mins, trying to do the service, rubbish clear, restock, and banking all at once. Indeed not serving passengers may get some of them to write in and complain, it will do very little as management have always been about cost savings. My issue with the ratio is crew fatigue, 4 crew on an 800 means there will be no time have a break on any flight! breaks now are very rare, but atleast there is time to shovel some poorly made and luke warm crew food into your mouth while doing banking and flight reports! after a 12 hour day (with delays) then being told to evacuate on the fianl touch down would just cause deaths. there is no word of 3 crew on a -700 yet, but i am sure its not far behind. I regret to say it, but it will take an accident where there is a loss of life to get them to change the ratio. Airlines now days are only concerned with the bottom dollar and giving the management teams big rewards for making the airline earn more money by risking safety and giving poor service, they have lost sight that if an aircraft went down, and there was a loss of life all this will come out and the public will loose faith in the airline and casue it to shut down. Then i wonder if the massive ammount of cash management recieved was all worth it.
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Congratulations on your order for the EMBRAER jets !! They will be a hoot to fly on ! The EMB 190 can get to anywhere in Australia.
Whats the bet 2 cabin crew per aircraft ?
Sinala and Smile - you both are going to love regional flying
QF SKY
Whats the bet 2 cabin crew per aircraft ?
Sinala and Smile - you both are going to love regional flying
QF SKY
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I wonder who will get the flying though - will it be us or a seperate company???
Yeah I am willing to bet 2 crew on the EMB170 and 3 on the EMB190... I can almost gaurentee the 'exemption' so lovingly applied to the B738 will end up being an actual change of ratio to 1:50 in Australia, therefore allowing 3 on the EMB190
Yeah I am willing to bet 2 crew on the EMB170 and 3 on the EMB190... I can almost gaurentee the 'exemption' so lovingly applied to the B738 will end up being an actual change of ratio to 1:50 in Australia, therefore allowing 3 on the EMB190
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My bet will be 2 on both sinala. You can have a 4 crew do a trip like this. MEL-SYD as a 4 on a 800/700. Split up then have 1 crew do a SYD-CFS-SYD the other do the SYD-CBR-SYD. Then reform and do a SYD-MEL.
Nice little 4 sector day dont you think.
Nice little 4 sector day dont you think.
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Sinala,
I'm thinking a base within a base. Each DJ base will have a DJ regional base added to it. Crew will use same facilities, wear same uniform, get same company memos but will be on lower award rates and will only fly on EMB a/c. They will be employed by Virgin Regional. Can't wait to see the cabin crew agreement for this venture - should make for interesting reading.
Then down the track, you have a situation similar to QF (lowest bidder ). Virgin regional start stealing your flying and vice versa
Has your EBA been signed yet ????
I'm thinking a base within a base. Each DJ base will have a DJ regional base added to it. Crew will use same facilities, wear same uniform, get same company memos but will be on lower award rates and will only fly on EMB a/c. They will be employed by Virgin Regional. Can't wait to see the cabin crew agreement for this venture - should make for interesting reading.
Then down the track, you have a situation similar to QF (lowest bidder ). Virgin regional start stealing your flying and vice versa
Has your EBA been signed yet ????
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And
As highly trained Crew, carry out all your actions in the event of a major 'prang'
1:50 is safe, proven by many EU and USA carriers, catch up please.
Many here base their opinions on service. Sell yourselves short why dont you. Please learn 1:50 trained Crew is safe, if not the governining body will deny the operation.
With the Middle East airlines looking to under-cut your prices and to be fair service levels with Flippers and Indians etc etc, whilst using "Crew for the Doors" and service crew to serve, in the same uniform, as nothing but waitresses, now that is unsafe! (QR)
Well, you draw your own conclusions.
1:50 is safe, proven by many EU and USA carriers, catch up please.
Many here base their opinions on service. Sell yourselves short why dont you. Please learn 1:50 trained Crew is safe, if not the governining body will deny the operation.
With the Middle East airlines looking to under-cut your prices and to be fair service levels with Flippers and Indians etc etc, whilst using "Crew for the Doors" and service crew to serve, in the same uniform, as nothing but waitresses, now that is unsafe! (QR)
Well, you draw your own conclusions.
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The new Embraer jets are going to be operated by Virgin Blue and not a separate company. They will be crewed by Virgin Blue Cabin Crew who will eventually all be dual rated. Initially there will be a small group who start as EMB only crew but eventually everyone will fly both.
Therefore its same crew, same uniform, same service type, same company etc.. its just a smaller plane going into some new ports.
Therefore its same crew, same uniform, same service type, same company etc.. its just a smaller plane going into some new ports.
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Just been looking at cabin config on Embraer website and there is only 2 cabin crew seats, 1 at either end so the 1:50 ratio will be coming in on these aircraft for sure.
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Yeah that spooked me too when I saw it. Apparently the pax seats are 2 inches wider and really comfortable. I was speaking with a guy in engineering the other day and they said that they have setup a cabin layout which is different to the standard one EMB have.
There is no way that I can see CASA approving 1:50 straight out of the factory so they'd have to buy them with an extra crew seat in the cabin. Unless of course they change the CAO by then but I can't see that happening.
There is no way that I can see CASA approving 1:50 straight out of the factory so they'd have to buy them with an extra crew seat in the cabin. Unless of course they change the CAO by then but I can't see that happening.
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I'm sure with an order like Virgin's, Embraer would happily add an extra crew seat.. manufacturers change cabin configs all the time... shouldn't be a hassle. If in the future they use less crew then there is a spare seat, it happens now on those Alliance Fokkers, nothing new there..!
As for my earlier q's regarding exit row briefings.. anyone care to answer?? Anyone??
As for my earlier q's regarding exit row briefings.. anyone care to answer?? Anyone??
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WHATEVA - if you can tell me the route we fly in nz that is over 2 hours I will give you a million dollars!!!
We also operate the 400 with 3 crew - a full akl - wlg (45 minutes) is a disaster, especially during winter when the weather is awful and the cabin prep PA is made 20 mins after take off.
NZ DOMESTIC FLIGHT TIMES: -
AKL - WLG 45 mins
AKL - CHC 1hr 20 mins (MAX!!)
AKL - ZQN 1 hr 40 mins (MAX!!)
WLG - CHC 30 mins (45 max)
CHC - ZQN 30 mins
CHC - ROT 1 hr 5 mins (MAX!!)
We do the same thing as you EXCEPT all our pax have something because its free! We have a saleble bar aswell so banking is required. I do this almost everyday so maybe get the facts before saying we have it easy due to these mysterious 2+hour sectors ?????
We also operate the 400 with 3 crew - a full akl - wlg (45 minutes) is a disaster, especially during winter when the weather is awful and the cabin prep PA is made 20 mins after take off.
NZ DOMESTIC FLIGHT TIMES: -
AKL - WLG 45 mins
AKL - CHC 1hr 20 mins (MAX!!)
AKL - ZQN 1 hr 40 mins (MAX!!)
WLG - CHC 30 mins (45 max)
CHC - ZQN 30 mins
CHC - ROT 1 hr 5 mins (MAX!!)
We do the same thing as you EXCEPT all our pax have something because its free! We have a saleble bar aswell so banking is required. I do this almost everyday so maybe get the facts before saying we have it easy due to these mysterious 2+hour sectors ?????
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1:50 ratio
oh, sorry i should make myself clear with that one, i mean on the trans tasman routes, pac blue as it stands can operate a -800 with 150 pax with 3 crew. i know how hard it is, i used to work for an airline that seved hot brekie on a 45 min flight, its bedlem! If only there was a way to make them realize we have no hope in providing safety and service to all passengers. Honestly the time has come for me to give up this game, 10 hour days, 21 days a month with reduced rest at home and out port, working like dogs, no where else to go and also no seniority to work up to whats left?